What do people "really think" of BFR's in RAA A. Helpful or B. Waste of Time and Money ?

[spacesailor]

It doesn,t work that way, as I still have to get Passed that CFO.

or I,ll be on my  L ,s forever. LoL.

Loved flying with my instructor, he was taken aback with my failure as well. He thought I was ready to solo.

I didn,t expect that outcome.

spacesailor

 

[facthunter]

C'mon Spacey . "Anyone" can do a TIF. . Nev

[kgwilson]

My GA BFRs were never an issue and in 30 years never had to do a cross country (or a flight plan) although as the years progressed some theory stuff got introduced which was good as it highlighted things that had been put to the back of the memory. The CFI knew how much XC flying I'd done as it was all in the club aircraft so in his opinion there was little point and kept the cost down.

 

I have done my 5th RA BFR recently and as I now have my own aircraft and fly around 50 hours a year it was really just going through the motions. This time I flew a Jab 160 for the first time ever (previously it had been J170 & J230s) because in my plane I have a centre stick and a left hand throttle plus no brakes on the right. The only issue was on a crosswind landing as it reacted quite differently to mine and I needed a decent wing down approach which I don't need in mine when a crab and rudder kick works in all but very strong crosswinds. Otherwise it was just ticking the boxes.

 

The only issue with BFRs is when an instructor milks the hours to get more money. This happened in training a lot in the past but with a lot of this being called out in forums like this I think it has reduced a lot. I hasn't happened to me though.

[jackc]

On 06/01/2021 at 9:57 AM, spacesailor said:

My instructor gave me heaps of confidence,

BUT  ( always a But ) !.

When taking my flight test the senior instructor knocked it all out of me, never so nervous in the Foxbat even on my First day.

Light weight in the right seat & I lost a few kilos, so he said " I took of too fast ".

Different  words than what was used by my flight instructor, so did a touch&go instead of what he wanted. He told me I,m wasting his time & my money.

SO 

Failed

spacesailor

 

 

IF an instructor did that to me, in an effort to destroy my dream......I would tell him to bash an AoA sensor up his rear most facing orifice, with no Vaseline.......

[spacesailor]

More than one TIF ?.

One in the UK.

one in NZ.

One in Australia

spacesailor

[NT5224]

Hey folks

 

A good question  from OP.  Even though I now only fly GA  I am firmly of the opinion that BFRs are valuable.

 

My personal experience of BFs in RAA  and GA has basically been good. Instructors have been helpful and the process has been beneficial.  Particularly somebody like myself,  who operates remotely  from  their own strip rather than In a club environment,  spending a couple of hours with an instructor is useful to pull up on any emerging bad habits.     

 

But  in the past I have added some additional endorsements to my ticket as a way of achieving BFRs. I believe that there is great value in continuously learning and  broadening our knowledge as aviators. We should never stop learning, and so,  until somebody comes up with a better way  I'm happy to fly BFRs (GA or RAA)

 

Alan    

 

 

 

[Thruster88]

For my last bfr I did a retractable endorsement in a piper arrow. It was fun flying a new to me aircraft accurately. I used to get very nervous flying with instructor's but now am relaxed, good preparation is the key.

[alf jessup]

Depending on who your instructor is is the difference between how you feel about a BFR, me I find them very valuable with the 2 different instructors I have had over the years.

[old man emu]

Can you fail a BFR?

[alf jessup]

29 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Can you fail a BFR?

OME, 

I guess if you crash you could call that a fail.

[kgwilson]

During a BFR the PIC is the Instructor so if you crash the instructor has failed. Other than that you cannot fail a BFR but the instructor can decide not to sign you off until you have improved on some aspect he is not happy with so will advise some additional training and another check flight.

[old man emu]

24 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

you cannot fail a BFR but the instructor can decide not to sign you off

Well, to me, that's a FAIL. 

[Bennyboy320]

It’s a Clayton’s fail, “the fail you’re having when you’re not having a fail” as you don’t have the privileges of your licence/certificate removed, you could legally jump into your a/c & fly after being disappointed in a BFR until it expires, as mentioned it’s legal but wouldn’t pass the “pub test.”

[jackc]

Shame car drivers don’t have BFRs 🙂.  Results on your licence record!

[facthunter]

  It's a stipulated flight review, where if you don't meet the minimum standard or demonstrate lack of knowledge  in a critical area, something must be done about it. There's a follow up which may be extra training of some kind but it won't and can't be just ignored.. Technically, you haven't failed I suppose , BUT It's a moot point not to grieve over though. Extra training should never be seen as a punishment. If it happens it's because it has been observed and should be corrected and the system works as it should.... Even without being  required you should use a competent flying instructor anytime you feel less confident in your skills  than you would like to be. That's NOT a FAIL either.   It's a sign of a good pilot. If there's doubt do something about it, rather than take the risk and find out the hard way

  People also tend to pick up bad habit's. (take short cuts)  when they fly long periods without anyone about, to pick them up on it. Nev

[old man emu]

3 hours ago, old man emu said:

Well, to me, that's a FAIL. 

Now, that's simply my interpretation of the outcome of a BFR. Either your reviewer feels that you can operate an aircraft safely- PASS, or the reviewer feels that a procedure is NUTS, and requires the pilot to show at a later time that the ability to perform the procedure is up to standard. 

 

The only way for the pilot to be informed that something is not up to standard is to have an independent person review performance. In order to ensure these reviews are done, RAAus has decided that once every two years is not too onerous, yet will catch underperformance before it becomes a problem.

 

So I'm in favour of the BFR system.

 

How many active flyers here have explored for themselves procedures described in some of the recent threads? That's a sort of arms-length procedure review.  

[facthunter]

I see the 2 years as  a long time  and a lot can happen but wouldn't seek to change it. RAAus see an endorsement as a substitute or equal to a BFR That's practical and covers it. I'd like to think the use of the Instructor past issue of a pilot Cert is seen as a means of "progressing" your development as a qualified "Air Person".

   There's no suggestion that you know it all at Cert plus X Country endorsement, but there's no programme available to do anything structured either. SOME may wish to aim for a higher level of skill and knowledge that others may not require or seek. IF you confine your OPS to your skills you will be safe.in VH there was the commercial licence, basic requirement for a "earn a living" phase.   The only way to do that in Rec.U/L's is Instructing, but not everyone wants to do that. Many have commented they wouldn't have the patience.  I've never found THAT an issue  but some may well do so.. Nev

[Yenn]

Supposedly you cannot fail a BFR, but a friend of mine did.

He was flying an RAAus  seaplane which has a retractable undercarriage. Doing the BFR, with the instructor on board, he landed wheels up on a grass strip. He was not failed by the instructor, who advised him he had passed. A few weeks later RAAus must have learnt about the landing and told him he had not passed a BFR and therefore he was not allowed to fly. I think the instructor has a pretty spotty record, but have never flown with him.

[Old Koreelah]

On 15/01/2021 at 9:08 AM, jackc said:

Shame car drivers don’t have BFRs 🙂.  Results on your licence record!

Years ago, while running our library, one of the the most popular study resources was the Motor Traffic Handbook. 

All the 16-year-olds were studying for their learner’s permit test. After most failed their first attempt at the knowledge test, the kids challenged me to do the test.

Despite fifty years safe driving, I failed as well!

[onetrack]

The two biggest single problems that invade skills over time are complacency, and the gradual intrusion of bad habits.

 

Complacency is familiarity in another form, but it will kill you if you let it intrude into your most important and crucial procedures.

 

Bad habits sneak up on you. You start off by allowing them to creep in, and they gradually get worse. A BFR should identify and rapidly arrest bad habits that have been subtly acquired.

 

I never cease to be amazed at the number of older, highly-skilled, highly-experienced people who kill themselves, purely due to complacency and bad habits.

[Old Koreelah]

Agreed, 1T. That’s why all my BFRs have been with different instructors and aircraft. I have enjoyed the variety, but none of them identified any bad habits; either my piloting is okey or they were all pretty tolerant. 

I suspect the latter.

[poteroo]

No point in a BFR unless both you and the instructor have a good discussion beforehand and you fess up to anything you feel uneasy about, or which you don't ever attempt.  I often hear of BFRs where the instructor methodically works thru the entire syllabus, chews up hours & hours, and the pilot learns SFA.  It's important that the instructor checks thru your logbook and gains insight to where you actually fly, and checks those areas thoroughly. 

 

I favour really checking out their cross-wind capability, their ability to assess a strange airstrip and land on it, a low level EFATO,  W&B,  and their engine management skills. This covers quite a lot of the practical things that pilots do, and often....quite badly.

 

I clearly recall going for my very 1st 'BFR' in the early 80's, along with a few other C180 and C182 owners.  The CFI asked us what was our payload in these aircraft, and the local bright spark replied  'push it all in, and if we can close the doors, she's ready to fly'     It floored him!

 

happy days,

[waraton]

I am currently mentoring/supporting my 14yo though his RAA theory subjects prior to commencement of flight training. It has been 35+ years since I did the theory myself and have found the process really good for a refresher. Having said that it has highlighted to me how much the questioning style leaves to be desired rather than sensibly actually testing knowledge. It has been like that since I did mine and I thought it may have changed since then but no.

 

On the matter of BFRs - due to COVID this year I used an instructor I haven't used  previously. The cost was $240 for .5 in my own aircraft with a cup of coffee before hand, I thought that was expensive especially as it was instant. On the last circuit, while completing a no flap simulated engine failure the feed back was its all good full stop here I've seen enough. Later when paying, as I was leaving I accidently grabbed a document summarising the BFR which was being sent to RAA in which it discussed how lousy my rudder control was and that I had received corrective instruction. When I asked if I was going to get the corrective instruction the response was that my rudder control was good and the document is only to show RAA that something had been corrected. I was unhappy that the system must make people feel they need to do that and make stuff up. 

 

I fully support BFRs and always ask that I am pushed or challenged. I love flying and feel so lucky to have been born in a time and country which allows me to have a hobby like aviating. 

[Blueadventures]

14 minutes ago, waraton said:

I am currently mentoring/supporting my 14yo though his RAA theory subjects prior to commencement of flight training. It has been 35+ years since I did the theory myself and have found the process really good for a refresher. Having said that it has highlighted to me how much the questioning style leaves to be desired rather than sensibly actually testing knowledge. It has been like that since I did mine and I thought it may have changed since then but no.

 

On the matter of BFRs - due to COVID this year I used an instructor I haven't used  previously. The cost was $240 for .5 in my own aircraft with a cup of coffee before hand, I thought that was expensive especially as it was instant. On the last circuit, while completing a no flap simulated engine failure the feed back was its all good full stop here I've seen enough. Later when paying, as I was leaving I accidently grabbed a document summarising the BFR which was being sent to RAA in which it discussed how lousy my rudder control was and that I had received corrective instruction. When I asked if I was going to get the corrective instruction the response was that my rudder control was good and the document is only to show RAA that something had been corrected. I was unhappy that the system must make people feel they need to do that and make stuff up. 

 

I fully support BFRs and always ask that I am pushed or challenged. I love flying and feel so lucky to have been born in a time and country which allows me to have a hobby like aviating. 

Would be good to send details RAA as they should action this sort of thing, I would expect they should contact the previous 20 bfr’s and see if there is a trend. He is obviously a low morale instructor that needs more than a tuneup. IMHO.

[Mike Borgelt]

Faintly amusing.

Firstly, it isn't a flight TEST, it is a flight REVIEW.

Anyone who wants to fly with an instructor is free to do so at any time. Nobody who is licensed (Private or Recreational) should be forced to do so. Safety and competence is YOUR problem and the problem of anyone silly enough to fly with you. Better would be expanded recency/currency requirements as long as they are reasonable.

Do you think the Flight Review is for your benefit or the benefit of those who fly with you? If so, I have a nice bridge to sell you. The aim is to benefit the authorities who are seen to be doing something. The instructor group also stand to benefit by the extra customers but they forget that putting barriers in just ultimately drives people away.

The FAA brought in the requirement back in 175 IIRC. What happened was the Cessna company did a large campaign to get more people to fly. "Just like driving a car". Bad idea, as a whole bunch of people who had never given aviation a thought got into it and started killing themselves and their passengers at a great rate which of course made the media. The FAA brought in the BFR to be seen to be doing something about this.

As Australia is never slow to copy a silly idea, we brought it in a year or so later.

IIRC Dr Arthur Pape was unable to find any evidence that a BFR had any effect on the accident rates for pilots with more than 400 hours or so.