What do people "really think" of BFR's in RAA A. Helpful or B. Waste of Time and Money ?

[Jabiru7252]

Many people wouldn't have a clue as to the proficiency of their pilot. Look at the poor souls who perished when that %^$# dickhead crashed his Tobago at Mount Gambier when taking off in fog. Killed a mother and her daughter. Unfortunately a BFR isn't going to catch out the immeasurably stupid amongst our ranks.

Edited January 20, 2021 by Jabiru7252

[facthunter]

waraton that's real BS what happened to you. Mike if they get nothing out of a BFR it's not done with any imagination or effort. You don't have to spend hours with a pilot to know if HE/She can fly competently. IF the briefing includes a request for revision of some sequence then how the "candidate" responds will tell you plenty. Any upgrade can be used as a BFR. I prefer a good wring out rather than  a she'll be right, but I know that most pilots can be failed if the checker is a real $#it and sets out to do it.. IF I thought that was happening I'd probably go into print if nothing else worked, but that's just Me. I don't suffer fools gladly and I do pick People I  respect for a BFR on me, so it's hypothetical.  You're paying so you get to pick and choose a good one, not an "easy on you" one because the only person being fooled is you if you do that. Nev

[Yenn]

So Waraton now has on his records at RAAus comments that his rudder work was unsatisfactory. I would consider that to be outrageously dishonest and that instructor should have his certificate taken off him.

[facthunter]

Yes , it's outrageous, and I can't see why that wouldn't be SOOo obvious. Nev

[Mike Borgelt]

Anyone got any PROOF, statistical or otherwise, that the AFR has any beneficial effect on accident rates for pilots with more than 400 hours?

It is meant to be about accident rates isn't it? If not what the heck is it about? I'll support RATIONAL regulation that can be shown to be EFFECTIVE. Otherwise it is bureaucratic bs that just makes aviation more expensive and inconvenient.

 

As for the 2 year driving review:

Assuming about 3 million people in Queensland with a licence, that's 1.5 million reviews a year. Assuming the reviewers work 200 days a year and do 7 - 8 reviews a day that's around 1500 reviews per reviewer per year. That's another 1000 Queensland public servants you need to recruit that you me and everyone will pay for. There are far too many already.

Now, your chances of killing or injuring someone or damaging third party property are far higher in a car than in a small aeroplane, partly because there is far more driving done than aviation but it shows that the holy grail of "aviation safety" is in fact trivial in societal terms

 

[facthunter]

A light aircraft can bring a jetliner down. I can't recall a car or motorbike doing it. Planes still have a special "FASCINATION for the news  people..  I think I've had more close associates die in aircraft than in cars. The per hour figure might not look too good if we went there.. You make YOUR own luck in Recreational Aviation to a very large extent... Nev

[old man emu]

5 minutes ago, facthunter said:

I think I've had more close associates die in aircraft than in cars.

That might be due to your being more closely associated with aviation over the years than the average Joe Blow. One possible comparison method is fatalities per distance travelled. You also have to define the limits of your sample. If you included all aviation fatalities world-wide, you would also have to made vehicle related deaths worldwide. Since our bias is towards what happens in Australia, then you have to limit the data to that generated i Australia only.

[facthunter]

I actually think it's a test that has significance and relevance. It's NOT just people I know OF.  Also 27% of Helicopters were written of in one particular year in Australia. The most significant factor in that was the type of work asked of them.

  I do consider the RAAus types are significantly risky overall but I've always qualified that as bad operators are over represented in accidents. (as would be expected). but the individual has a lot of control as to where THEY fit  in the risk spectrum... Nev

[Jabiru7252]

I think folks with driving licenses should be picked at random, say 200 a year. Test their skills and knowledge of the rules. If they 'flunk' give three months and test them again. If they flunk again, make them do a coarse. You don't have to test the entire population, just a good sample to gauge if there is a problem. However, it seems to me that the vast majority of road accidents is caused by drugged up mental defectives that should be in secure places away from society and light. 

[facthunter]

Re testing some that are pinched frequently or involved in accidents or if they have little dents on the corners of their cars. IF they see someone driving well, note it and give them a voucher. Carrot and stick. Nev

[Yenn]

I also have lost more friends to aircraft crashes than car crashes, but there is little similarity between them.

The aviation accidents have been mainly poor judgment problems. The car crashes have been poor judgment by others in many cases.

We are exposed to danger on the roads for longer than we are in the air, unless we are a professional pilot, but we are mixing with people who who vary in ability from excellent to appalling.

[spacesailor]

What you consider a Good driver !, never had an accident AND never a speeding ticket, 

BUT, my brother was to me,an accident waiting To happen.

PURE LUCK.

90 klm an hour, on the wrong side of the road, coming to a right hand corner !, ( 60k area ).

AND HE say,s " someone will let us in ".  The third time he pulled the type of stupidity l took the key off him.

spacesailor

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Bad driving is not just about accidents - the general failure of Au drivers  to keep left, except when overtaking, very poor use of indicators, lack of road curtesy  and poor understanding on how to use a traffic circle , leads to traffic congestion that must be costing the country billions of $$$ in unnecessarily increased travel time and fuel consumption.

[kasper]

31 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Bad driving is not just about accidents - the general failure of Au drivers  to keep left, except when overtaking, very poor use of indicators, lack of road curtesy  and poor understanding on how to use a traffic circle , leads to traffic congestion that must be costing the country billions of $$$ in unnecessarily increased travel time and fuel consumption.

You really need to go and drive in the UK or on continental Europe - excluding Germany where they are good drivers.  And if you think they are good - have you seen the chaos that is the Arc de Triompe in Paris or anywhere in Italy - try Colombian or Venezuelan drivers.  I’ve experienced them all and I’ll take our very average Australian drivers any day of the week.  

[skippydiesel]

So there are worse drivers clogging up the roads & economies of other countries-  so what? does that in any way diminish my argument(s).

 

The reality is that the driving tests are a joke, our drivers are appalling and the authorities seem to be completely indifferent to the cause of the" disease" only interested in a few narrow revenue raising symptoms, the main one speeding, is like treating a dying man for dandruff.

 

Oh! and I have driven cars , trucks & motorbikes in the UK, Canada, USA and a few other unlikely places - who cares about better or worse experiences ? In this matter its about Au drivers and how they damage our econamy and kill innocent people on our roads, all with the connivance of the authorities..

[kgwilson]

I spoke to a bloke a long time ago who said he just did what he liked. His philosophy was that the other driver does not want to die & will take appropriate action. All it needs is for the other bloke to have that self same attitude & 2 idiots are gone. Thankfully there are not many of these but we do have some appalling drivers in this country that should not have their licence.

[Old Koreelah]

4 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

...we do have some appalling drivers in this country that should not have their licence.

That might not fix the problem.

You’d be surprised how many drivers don’t have a license or never did.

[spacesailor]

Maybe it,s because the driving test is More academic than practical.

How does an iliterate person GET A LICENCE ?.

I know two at least without licenses, the cops just sit in their cars knowing they can get a certain , licence insurance,  and rego, in one hit, 

Their Frends watch out for those cops, and occasionally block the road, to save them haveing another stint in jail.

I have " visited " them in the jail, too many times to give my time again. 

( l just don,t like the place ).

And all because the can,t read & write !

Spacesailorr

 

 

[kgwilson]

8 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

That might not fix the problem.

You’d be surprised how many drivers don’t have a license or never did.

True like the dickhead who killed those kids in Wellington recently.

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, kgwilson said:

True like the dickhead who killed those kids in Wellington recently.

Let us hope that this is viewed, by the court, as pre meditated murder just as drink/drug driving has become (although this took years and a massive cultural change to achieve)

[Mike Borgelt]

 

A light aircraft can bring a jetliner down. I can't recall a car or motorbike doing it. Planes still have a special "FASCINATION for the news  people..

 

 

One of the sillier analogies when you think about it. A car driver can cause a school, bus full of kids to run off a cliff or into the path of an oncoming semi. Think the media won't be interested? - for a week or so anyway. Most aircraft crashes seem to make the news and disappear within 24 or 48 hours. The AFR is expensive theatre. If you know of any definite, statistically proven effect on accident rates for pilots over 400 to 500 hours please do let us know.

Imagine what is going to happen when an RAAus aircraft hits a classroom full of kids or a school bus and the media discover there are more than 10,000 unlicenced pilots flying around in Australian airspace.

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I agree kgwilson. I knew this woman who worked for a drug rehabilitation lot and she said about half the clients thought you were stupid to pay for all that license stuff.

[facthunter]

Mike, your last line gets the silly prize IF that's the way we are doing things The "certificate" gets you as legally into the  air in "our" planes as an ATPL does for an Airline operating Jumbos and you don't usually get near schools full of kids or Buses with U/Ls.   "Hours Attainments" do not produce any immunity from the things a good BFR checks. People operating by themselves  often cut corners or miss out on some new amendments or changes.. Nev 

[tillmanr]

Recently I  travelled to complete another BFR at an airfield that I normally don’t fly from.
I choose to do this in a similar performance type of aircraft to mine but not the same.
I do this to test my application of flying skills not just another run in my aircraft. It makes me think about my flying while it is refreshing to change aircraft.

I take on any input from the CFI as to how I could sharpen my skills.

 This is enjoyable and yet a valuable exercise in my opinion.

[SplitS]

BFR's are a waste of time and money a couple of circuits yawn simulated engine failure which you know is coming up yawn and maybe a crosswind landing since I fly of a single strip I do this all the time.

They are just a tick the box exercise.