What do people "really think" of BFR's in RAA A. Helpful or B. Waste of Time and Money ?

[skippydiesel]

Just now, SplitS said:

BFR's are a waste of time and money a couple of circuits yawn simulated engine failure which you know is coming up yawn and maybe a crosswind landing since I fly of a single strip I do this all the time.

They are just a tick the box exercise.

If that's how you view the importunity to review your skills & procedure, I guess you will "yawn" but then the rest of us mortals, who have human failings, might just benefit from an BFR.

[old man emu]

I'm paying for the use of the aircraft, one way or the other. I'm paying for a qualified person to observe my technique and offer positive criticism. Therefore, I'll want to brief the qualified person on what sort of flying I've been doing, and what areas I think need checking. I want those areas included in whatever else the qualified person wants to observe.

 

Anyone who has been following the several discussions on performance and such should have a multitude of situations to explore. Instead of an engine failure, why not a magneto failure. You need to go through the steps to identify what the problem is and to provide realistic solutions of it. I said earlier that the BFR is not simply done on the day of the review. A wise pilot would put in a bit of practice beforehand. 

 

I agree that a bit of circuit work is a necessary part of the review, but I suggest that the majority of the period should be spent out in the training area where handling can be explored.

 

And what about a bit of flight planning? Is anyone ever given a W&B calculation to do, and a performance analysis? We've discussed the things that are involved in those two facets, but who has been tested on their application any time after sitting the relevant licence exam?

 

[Mike Borgelt]

skippydiesel, as I said previously, if YOU think you'll benefit from flying with an instructor, go to it. Just don't force it on everyone else.

 

Facthunter, I'm not disputing that the licence status or otherwise of pilots has anything to do with their competence. I'm talking about media shaped public "perception" and the political hay that can be made out of it.

 

I'm amused by the exalted status that people seem to hold instructors in. They are just pilots like anyone else. Really good instructors are rare beasts indeed and should spend their time teaching their students to fly properly. If that is done right done right you'll be your own most severe critic on every flight.

 

In the Australian gliding movement far too many of what purport to be "instructors" have killed or injured their students, let alone the many students who have been turned off and left gliding by their incompetence. You never know when one of them will turn a simulated emergency into a real one and I know that has happened in RAAus too.

[old man emu]

Instructors have one thing that the average pilot doesn't -experience. In another thread, someone mentioned that the aircraft he has owned for so long the engine is coming up for its calendar TBO has something like 350 hours TTIS.  Compared to an instructor, this owner has a lot less experience, and one would assume, a lot less experience flying in not the best of conditions.

 

It's true that the ability to communicate effectively as a teacher is what marks the difference between god and bad instructors, so there is the need to find an instructor who can identify how YOU learn and mould your training accordingly. As I said earlier, you are paying for the BFR, so you have the right to some input. As Mike said, " If that is done right done right you'll be your own most severe critic ".  How many pilots discuss the exercises in a BFR with the instructor before the flight? Or do they just cop what is dished out?

 

9 hours ago, Mike Borgelt said:

if YOU think you'll benefit from flying with an instructor, go to it

Who is going to have the knowledge and more importantly, the experience, to identify faults in your technique?  If you are self-critical with your flying, then a few quick whizzes around the circuit will be enough to take care of the administrative requirements of your Certificate. But many of us are not into self-incrimination and need another pair of eyes to point out the mistakes that might creep into our performance as a pilot.

 

It has been explained that you can't actually "fail" a BFR and have your certificate revoked. All the instructor can do is indicate where skill levels are low and to recommend that work be done to raise those skill levels. 

[kasper]

18 minutes ago, old man emu said:

much clipped ...

 

It has been explained that you can't actually "fail" a BFR and have your certificate revoked. All the instructor can do is indicate where skill levels are low and to recommend that work be done to raise those skill levels. 

In reality you can “fail” your BFR if your instructor refuses to certify you “satisfactorily completed” a BFR. 
 

same result - no BFR signed and no continued right to exercise your certificate privileges after the end of your previous BFR.  
 

so technically it’s odd.  A BFR is not removed in its operation by a later failure to satisfactorily pass another one but at the end of 2 years from the last certified satisfactorily completed BFR your privileges cease to be active until you next satisfactorily complete a BFR. 

[skippydiesel]

10 hours ago, Mike Borgelt said:

skippydiesel, as I said previously, if YOU think you'll benefit from flying with an instructor, go to it. Just don't force it on everyone else.

 

Facthunter, I'm not disputing that the licence status or otherwise of pilots has anything to do with their competence. I'm talking about media shaped public "perception" and the political hay that can be made out of it.

 

I'm amused by the exalted status that people seem to hold instructors in. They are just pilots like anyone else. Really good instructors are rare beasts indeed and should spend their time teaching their students to fly properly. If that is done right done right you'll be your own most severe critic on every flight.

 

In the Australian gliding movement far too many of what purport to be "instructors" have killed or injured their students, let alone the many students who have been turned off and left gliding by their incompetence. You never know when one of them will turn a simulated emergency into a real one and I know that has happened in RAAus too.

As a mortal person with very human failings, I value the third party (hopefully unbiased ) opinion/assessment by others, when it comes to maintaining a complex skill/knowledge base. This includes aviation and every other skill /knowledge set that I have/aspire too.

 

This has nothing to do with the instructor per-say but everything to do with a fellow aviator routinely (every 2 years) casting his/her eye over your skills/Knowles set and making hopefully constructive criticisms.

 

The instructor has been tasked with this role, as they are expected to maintain a level of "currency" above that of the average pilot. You are deluding yourself, if you feel that this has something to do with status.

 

It would seem that you would set yourself apart/above us mortal beings and ignore the safety practice that has evolved over generations of pilots and is entrenched in all levels of aviation (not just RAA/GA)

[SSCBD]

BFR and Flying Instructors

But all is not equal with instructors. I know of and have personally trained and approved these new puny gods and CFIs. 

Some are good some are not so good. They only pass as they themselves have passed a set of standards given in the book.  (some i would not fly with or send students to. 

These brand new shinny deer eyed gods that need time to actually be able to develop skills themselves to teach at a higher level.  

Then you get the old bastard types that just know  you have stuffed up before you have done it - like watching a slow train wreck. 

These are the ones you need to fly with. That may and should push your skills or say your a dead man if you keep that up. 

Learn form these types - seek them out. Everyones ego needs to be shaken, not stirred now and then. 

FLY SAFE. 

Edited January 27, 2021 by SSCBD

[facthunter]

Instructing is a responsibility more than a power. Some are good and caring and conscientious. Some are something less IF you are in good shape as to  your knowledge and performance it will possibly be a non event. It's up to you what you make it.  The system has to have processes that do assessments at times that are and are seen to be effective.. A twin endorsement would certainly cover  your basic flying skills to demonstrate competence in the extra ones. A tailwheel endorsement similarly. Most career pilots do these things as they progress. They certainly don't just end with a BARE commercial on a rudimentary fixed gear unpressurised 4 seat piston. You would never get employed by anyone except perhaps your mother .  A pilot who mostly does circuits at the one place in the same plane may be safe but only  safe in the limited exposure he elects to operate in. If a wind change comes through, he's dangerous. So is a pilot who thinks he/she has nothing more to learn. . . Nev

[spacesailor]

Facthunter.

There is the  odd one or two, that really enjoy their " home base " circuits, 

 With my instructor, l have flown a Large circuit !, 

It was fantastic, ( Oaks, Wollongong,  Coalcliff, The Oaks. ( map reading as well )).

Still only a circuit, 

BUT

Immeasurably better for a student, and BORING for the instructor.

My very first time to see the Escarpment.

spacesailor

[kgwilson]

56 minutes ago, SSCBD said:

BFR and Flying Instructors

But all is not equal with instructors. I know of and have personally trained and approved these new puny gods and CFIs. 

Some are good some are not so good. They only pass as they themselves have passed a set of standards given in the book.  (some i would not fly with or send students to. 

These brand new shinny deer eyed gods that need time to actually be able to develop skills themselves to teach at a higher level.  

Then you get the old bastard types that just know  you have stuffed up before you have done it - like watching a slow train wreck. 

These are the ones you need to fly with. That may and should push your skills or say your a dead man if you keep that up. 

Learn form these types - seek them out. Everyones ego needs to be shaken, not stirred now and then. 

FLY SAFE. 

This happened to me when I was on a Navex in a C150 & we had to cross a mountain range to get to the next aerodrome & the CFI gave me a hypothetical of cloudbase, weather, fuel endurance, fading light, other aerodromes closed etc so the only option was to fly up a valley & through a saddle. As a student I was pretty busy & had all the extra stuff about an exit strategy as well. I thought I was doing OK till he yelled "BANG YOU'RE F***ING DEAD" & then explained what I'd done wrong. I've never forgotten that lesson & it kept me in good stead when I eventually got my Mountain Rating. He was a fantastic instructor but a terrible administrator & lost his CFI role & I was really quite chuffed to be able to offer him a job with my company. I flew Aeros with him in his Yak52 a few times. He was the best I've ever had in the right hand seat.

Edited January 28, 2021 by kgwilson

[facthunter]

And may you long be able to avail yourself of that sort of opportunity Spacey.  You might debate where an extended circuit ceases to be a circuit.  (for another day and someone else). Cheers. Nev

  KG, if he adapts to the RHS in a supportive role , that's the ultimate test  of his cockpit resource awareness. Nev

Edited January 28, 2021 by facthunter

[waraton]

I don't recall seeing any instructor driving a mercedes. It must be a labor of love. I recently spent time with one who is running 2 aircraft, they are averaging 300 hours a year in total with less than 40 students on the books. They take the time to pre and post brief training flights, time which is not charged for. The tuition charge for test preparation is $80per hour. Flying charge is $200 an hour.

 

While I was there on each day I saw at least 1 cancellation due to no show or last  minute withdrawal. Tjat impacts a one peron operation

 

They told me they were exhausted after 5 lessons in a day and I am not surprised. Four hours in a day on an average nav wears me out.

 

This person like many others is over 75 and unbelievably experienced.

 

These operators are often in regional areas and there doesn't seembto be any sucession planning probably for a few reasons.

 

It seems to me that he large commercial operators are romanced by oversight bodies as it allows outsourcing of many functions that they should be responsible for. This in turn increases the cost to consumers as profits take a driving seat. It also means the time and financial costs associated with complience must make smaller opeations evermore unattractive to pursue.

 

As others have  pointed out there are some bad ones, and remember we can all have a bad day, it must be a tough gig being an instuctor at times.

 

Most of us will benefit from a bfr if for no other reason but some reassurance that we are going okay. We should celebrate the overwhelmingly positive impact our instructors have on our sport.

[spacesailor]

I,ve still not got into my cockpit,

YET.

( have to climb onto the Hummel Bird trailer, before opening the hood ).

A little stiff this morning, so didn,t go for my walk & excersize. ( its all the globle warming )

I,ll have a walk in the rain, to the shops. Now.

spacesailor 

 

[Old Koreelah]

4 hours ago, SSCBD said:

...These are the ones you need to fly with. That may and should push your skills or say your a dead man if you keep that up. 

Learn form these types - seek them out. Everyones ego needs to be shaken, not stirred now and then. 

FLY SAFE. 

Gold!

[spacesailor]

MY EGO  WAS shaken to the core .

And l'vé not flown since !.

Does it make me a Safer pilot ?.

spacesailor

[facthunter]

Not if you fly tomorrow. CASA likes grounded pilots and thinks they are safer.  There's a pilot at the scene of most crashes. Surely that's proof of their involvement and their fingerprints are all over the controls. Nev

[spacesailor]

HEY

l've only had ONE car crash. ( it shook All in the car up ) In a lifetime !, that should show a semblance of safety.

AND l was  not the driver. and the other car hit us going backwards. Made the facebuck/utube videos.

spacesailor

 

 

[Thruster88]

5 hours ago, SSCBD said:

BFR and Flying Instructors

 

Then you get the old bastard types that just know  you have stuffed up before you have done it - like watching a slow train wreck. 

These are the ones you need to fly with. That may and should push your skills or say your a dead man if you keep that up. 

Learn form these types - seek them out. Everyones ego needs to be shaken, not stirred now and then. 

FLY SAFE. 

We are very fortunate to have one of these old bastards as our CFI at Cowra Aero Club. Always good flying with Rob.

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by Thruster88

[facthunter]

Stake him out on an ants nest or banned from the club bar for a week after shouting everyone twice and only drinking water himself.. Nev

[Jabiru7252]

Nah, set his face on fire then put it out with a shovel...

[Jase T]

You do realise you can reset your BFR by learning a new skill?? Perhaps a formation endorsment? Perhaps tailwheel? Perhaps a low level endorsment? Maybe instead of just doing a few CCTS and a engine failure, this year you could look at getting something out of the process and improving your skills?? 

[old man emu]

15 minutes ago, Jase T said:

You do realise you can reset your BFR by learning a new skill??

That's been mentioned and it is true, but I think a BFR should be an examination and review of a pilot's basic flying skills. The BFR is part of the Safety Management System which aims for the continual improvement of the level of safety in aircraft operation. It is based on a continuous cycle described by a fellow named Deming, the Plan-Do-Check-Act cycle, where the BFR is the "Check" part and if anything is below standard, then "Act" means remediation. As each cycle is completed there are measurable indicators of improvement.

 

[spacesailor]

I have just seen an advertisement for job training !.

Skill level one, " Care worker "

skill level two, " aged " care worker  

Skill level three, care worker disabled  aged ! .

A separate Certificate for each level of CARE .

It,s as bad as that " hight training " certifiation. One certificate  per level of metres up !.

And each level cost a bit more than the previous certificate. 

spacesailor

[Yenn]

It may be OK to get or change instructors around the big citys, but where i fly there are no instructors. There was one at the nearest city, but I wouldn't go to him for a BFR. I have already related how he passed a pilot, only to have RAAus rescind his passing weeks later. Even if I do find an instructor I either have to fly in their plane or they watch me from the ground. I have done GA BFRs for the last 4 times, in an aero club plane at great expence, but a good experience mostly.

There is one excellent instructor about 80 miles away, so I may have to go to him. He does at least know how to fly, but my experience with RAAus instructors is that they vary from excellent to apalling.

[kgwilson]

3 minutes ago, Yenn said:

my experience with RAAus instructors is that they vary from excellent to apalling.

That also is true for GA instructors (in my experience)