Turns at low IAS

[facthunter]

Just put them on a skidpan for a part of the driving test. Not having to do a test to drive with a Caravan or Horse float is weird. Articulated s much safer and that requires a separate endorsement.. There ARE some who shouldn't be driving because they are psycho.

   Your last line might get some raised eyebrows. Nev

[jackc]

Many don’t know how to check oil and water, let alone anything else 🙂

[spacesailor]

I've done skid pan education, It's great fun.

Now It's a sport " Drifting " Grandson is really into it.

And I Don't need a BDouble licence to tow a 20 ft caravan.

the same as you don't need a commercial jumbo jet license to fly a Jabiru.

spacesailor

[onetrack]

Every single driver should be made to learn to drive on unsealed roads. When I was 16, our roads were 98% unsealed and 2% sealed - and we drove at high speed on unsealed roads without a care.

Now, roads are 50% sealed and 50% unsealed and people drive off the end of the sealed portion, and the vehicle is on its roof within a kilometre! - because they have no unsealed road driving skills!

Drivers of today can't even properly correct a swerve at speed - on bitumen! So the road safety authorities simply tell them to never swerve at speed, to try and reduce the road toll!!

 

 

 

[spacesailor]

Road toll Will be the lowest ever.

Just keep every one locked in their homes. only Professional driver on the road.

THEY wouldn't have accidents would they ?.

I didn't see many Professional drivers on the Buchanan Highway. between Topsprings NT and Timbercreek WesternAustralia.

Total one.

Amateurs, maybe a dozen, all happy campers !. Lots towing.

spacesailor

Edited January 18, 2021 by spacesailor
added more

[Bruce Tuncks]

You are missing my point garfly. My point is to keep the really stupid  off the roads. It is those people who do most of the killing.

Anyway, I don't agree with you. Whatever you do in life, more knowledge will help. That is why is the theory of flight is  part of the commercial pilot's license.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Bruce Tuncks

[Bruce Tuncks]

Of course you do better testing, including using simulators. My guess is that this would keep some mentally deficient off the roads. But the hoons would easily pass any such test and proceed to kill themselves and others later.

Only an IQ type test would keep the worst of them off the road. Disguised as a physics of cars test of course. 

[facthunter]

I'm not trying to stop people pulling caravans Spacey it's just that a few fundamentals should be known by those who do it and how it's hitched and braked. . Nev

[Garfly]

41 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Anyway, I don't agree with you. Whatever you do in life, more knowledge will help. That is why is the theory of flight is  part of the commercial pilot's license.

Bruce, I'd be the last one to oppose 'more knowledge'. 

It's not science that I bridle at but scientism.

What keeps me awake is knowing that the smartest of pilots can do the dumbest of things.

[Bosi72]

On 07/01/2021 at 12:40 PM, old man emu said:

I'm considering starting another controversial thread, but I need some clarification, please.

 

When flying circuits, where is an aircraft most in danger from a stall/spin incident?

Skidding from base to final.

The low speed is not much relevant as is angle of attack. This video may help in explaining differences between skidding and slipping.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKfG3lWCZ80 

 

However, equally dangerous is engine failure after the take off without sufficient runway if nose is not pushed down immediately.

 

[facthunter]

'Understanding" is what is needed. A "little" knowledge can be dangerous. When you commence flying it's broken down into sequences and ticked off  when  each is completed SATISFACTORILY. It's pretty basic and a lot is just "do it this way". (or else). That worked for the forces as a max bang for expended buck but they kicked a % off each course , regardless as if that maintained a high enough standard.

  ALL such training courses are dumbed down. Raw military pilots had little chance of survival till by luck mostly they picked up more savvy..The  trick is to get the best good GEN after initial  qualifying , accepting that  the cert/ PP licence you have is only a minimum to get you legally into the air.. Instructors pass through grades, mentored by their CFI's and meeting new minimum hours requirements..Nev

[facthunter]

One of the most dangerous actions is a delayed go around. This can require all the skills you have  (and more).  The number of times you can land on the runway straight ahead after getting airbourne are few but should be considered where possible (as in Darwin). for some types.  Nev

Edited January 19, 2021 by facthunter

[Old Koreelah]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

I'm not trying to stop people pulling caravans Spacey it's just that a few fundamentals should be known by those who do it and how it's hitched and braked. . Nev

Over the years our VRA unit has been called to a couple of caravan crashes.

Big new 4WDs driven by recently retired couples. All their possessions scattered down the highway on the first day of their big trip.

[onetrack]

Garlfy has nailed it with his comment, that the smartest of pilots can do the dumbest of things. There are practical people, and there are highly intellectual people who have no practical skills - but they can rattle off all the maths, physics and equations like a uni professor.

 

The most competent people in charge of anything mechanically-driven, are those who have a satisfactory balance between practical skills and high maths and physics skills.

Then there's also the personality factor.

 

Someone who is easily distracted for an extended period, or who can't process multiple reactions required in a short time, are most at risk of killing themselves.

 

I find it interesting, that as we age, many people have a tendency to narrow their focus to a single problem, for an extended period, when an emergency occurs.

This stops them from focusing on the other problems that have appeared as well, that need addressing. This is a factor that has appeared in many accident investigations.

[Yenn]

I cannot see any similarity between car accidents and aeroplane accidents. The car is easy to drive and we all do it on a daily basis. The plane is not so easy to drive and we don't do it as often as we would like.

That means that when we are flying we are more attentive to what can go wrong than when we are driving  car.

My theory s that most road accidents are caused by inattention, no matter what the police put them down to. One of their main causes is speeding, but if you are attending to your driving you can safely handle high speeds.

Aircraft accidents are a different kettle of fish. Mostly they start off by something small going wrong and rapidly compound into a major problem. The pilot does not have the luxury of just puling over an  stopping, he has to control the stop and that is where he needs knowledge and reasoning ability. Sadly a lot lack either of those attributes.

The lack of knowledge is apparent from reading this forum and wondering what some of the people posting really understand.

[jackc]

One reason I am here........to learn.

[skippydiesel]

2 hours ago, Yenn said:

I cannot see any similarity between car accidents and aeroplane accidents. The car is easy to drive and we all do it on a daily basis. The plane is not so easy to drive and we don't do it as often as we would like.

That means that when we are flying we are more attentive to what can go wrong than when we are driving  car.

My theory s that most road accidents are caused by inattention, no matter what the police put them down to. One of their main causes is speeding, but if you are attending to your driving you can safely handle high speeds.

Aircraft accidents are a different kettle of fish. Mostly they start off by something small going wrong and rapidly compound into a major problem. The pilot does not have the luxury of just puling over an  stopping, he has to control the stop and that is where he needs knowledge and reasoning ability. Sadly a lot lack either of those attributes.

The lack of knowledge is apparent from reading this forum and wondering what some of the people posting really understand.

Yenn - you tempt me so. Your observations about land vehicles and their operators/drivers are largely at odds with my opinion.

 

We behave as if driving is easy and a right for all but in my humble opinion it should be regarded as a privilege (similar to flying) that requires a high degree of skill & knowledge, that must be maintained.

Speed never killed anyone, despite the Edwardians (?) believing anyone going faster than a galloping horse would cause instant death.

What causes accidents, is poor driver skill (part of which is judgement, discipline, courtesy, up to date knowledge & the ability to apply it correctly).

If you drive faster, than your, or your vehicles, capacity, or conditions will allow, you may be involved in an incident/accident that may cause damage, injury or death - the speed did not cause the incident, it was the drivers lack of skill/judgement. Your "inattention" is merely a component of lack of driver skill.

As a society we find this truth to be unpalatable. Law makers buy into it, because they can then use the speed regulations to generate revenue - got almost nothing to do with safety, other than if you sit in a stationary vehicle, there will be almost no risk of an incident - ultimate driver safety!!

Further - we allow a person to obtain a drivers license in their teens - they may not have a skill/knowledge review until they reach their dotage, 60 years later - how crazy is that?.

Testing, to assess your fitness to hold a drivers license is a joke - the bar is so low, they might as well issue the licenses on the kid 16 birthday - as a gift!

We the compound this by not even requiring "currency". As long as your renew your license (a financial /photographic transaction) you need not demonstrate you have retained your driving skill, even if you have not driven a vehicle in 20 years plus..

I would suggest , while not the same, driving and piloting (small aircraft) have very similar demands. Different skills & knowledge to be sure and the environment has few similarities, but the, for want of a better word, "philosophy" should be the same (and its not!)

[facthunter]

You "drive" a car (hopefully) but you manage the operation of the flight more with a plane. The accident often takes longer to happen and it's happening in all directions. You can't stop and fix anything either or pick up more oil and fuel or take a rest. Flying is less forgiving of drop kicks and "it's all too much",  moments.. The buck stops with you (the PIC) much more. You can  drive a car very slow to begin with and you don't have to lose the grip on the ground.  It's NOT the same  PS I did not read the above post prior to writing this..Nev

Edited January 19, 2021 by facthunter

[RossK]

5 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Testing, to assess your fitness to hold a drivers license is a joke - the bar is so low, they might as well issue the licenses on the kid 16 birthday - as a gift!

 

I disagree with this bit.

In VIC kids have to do 120hrs to be eligible to sit their test, 20 of which is night driving.

Can you imagine being told you have to do 120hrs to get your RPC 😲

Both my kids had to do their 120 hours and really the last 50 or so, I was very comfortable with their driving. They are now 25 and 27 and the only bending of panels has been the result of a roo doing what roos do. She did well though, drove straight into it under heavy braking, didn't swerve or veer, just straight into it, as taught.

 

I reckon I had less than 10 hours when I got my license to drive - and had bent 2 cars by the time i was 21: one by being a stupid teenage male and the other one pure inattention.

[skippydiesel]

RossK - we can all site exceptions both good & bad - What concerns  me is the overall approach to driving and the dumbing down of the skills required. Example: In NSW it would seem, if a few accident occurs on the same stretch of road, the answear is to drop the speed limit or spend squillions on a road upgrade (or both). No one asks the question, why are people (it is people not vehicles) having accidents on this stretch of road ?

Road condition's not cause accidents

Speed does not cause accidents

Vehicles do not cause accidents (unless poorly maintained)

Trees, bends, whatever do not cause accident. Yes you can be unlucky, our native animals have a tendency toward suicide but then why drive at speed, dusk to dawn (sometimes cant be avoided, I know as someone who has  had a roo take out a tail light).

The fact is, some more enlightened countries than our's, treat driving as a serious topic, starting kids in driver/road education (part of the school curriculum), long befor they can actually get behind the wheel on a public road. Some of these countries have incredibly high (by our standards) speed limits on their major highways and what do you know, much lower accident statistics than ours, despite appalling winter climactic conditions, deer and other wildlife and much higher traffic densities - go figure??

I think we are second only to Canada is in land mass and yet we have 110 kph on our major trunk routes - even tiny Britten has higher motorway speed limits and much much higher traffic densities - go figure again??

[Bruce Tuncks]

Of course garfly... the smartest of pilots can do the dumbest of things. But only 10% as often as the dumbest pilots.

That is , if the figures follow those of driving.

Driving is not that safe compared with flying. Here at Gawler we don't lose people from flying but we do from driving.

[Garfly]

Bruce, I'm not up to a debate on the dumbness of others.

My own human frailty gives me pause, enough.

 

[Yenn]

Skippy I agree with you. I was not doing anything other than point out that we consider driving is so easy that we can turn our brains off when we drive. Flying is still too new to us to be so blaze about it.

I would disagree with your remark about teens being too young to drive. I reckon kids should be taught to drive as soon as they are big enough to control a vehicle. I started early and by 18 years old was driving massive vehicles as well as small ones. I did get one big lesson, when I was caught drifting a five ton truck around a corner and an old bloke dobbed me in. I was hauled over the coals by my C.O and that lesson has stood by me for fifty plus years.

That was the same as the watch this statement by pilots.

[skippydiesel]

37 minutes ago, Yenn said:

Skippy I agree with you. I was not doing anything other than point out that we consider driving is so easy that we can turn our brains off when we drive. Flying is still too new to us to be so blaze about it.

I would disagree with your remark about teens being too young to drive. I reckon kids should be taught to drive as soon as they are big enough to control a vehicle. I started early and by 18 years old was driving massive vehicles as well as small ones. I did get one big lesson, when I was caught drifting a five ton truck around a corner and an old bloke dobbed me in. I was hauled over the coals by my C.O and that lesson has stood by me for fifty plus years.

That was the same as the watch this statement by pilots.

I dont think I made any comment relating to "teens being too young to drive" - I was behind the wheel of a car at 15 years old - supervised by my father, my two siblings & I got to develop some control ability on a disused airstrip, "bending" around cardboard boxes, we threw out randomly, in forward & reverse. I actually think that those European /Scandinavian countries that have driving as part of the school curriculum, starting children before they can drive, are way ahead of us.  I started my children  in a "paddock basher" in our paddocks . The paddock basher was great but I do not think parents/relatives should be allowed instruct their children on the public road - bad habits just get passed from one generation to the next - all too often I have seen L platters hogging the right lane(s) tail gating, making swan necked turns, forward parking, improper use of indicators, stopping for no reason on traffic circles, etc etc all under the guidance of a family adult.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I did the same with my kids and grandkids. They drove off the roads as soon as they could reach the pedals.

My kids are nearing 50 now and so far have not had a prang. ( touching wood here)

 

My experience of teaching agriculture students convinced me though about intelligence and driving. We went for many years with zero loss of students on the road, and the statistics said that this was very improbable, in fact millions to one against. BUT we were getting the smart kids from the classes and not the dumb ones. 

 

Then I read somewhere about the 10% dumbest causing 90 percent of the fatalities and it  all became clear.