Prop stopped.

[kgwilson]

Just checked the PE guide OT has posted. It was legal when the instructor did it but not when I did it.

[facthunter]

Page 30  Read it, all . Thanks OT. It's as I recalled .No change from 45 years ago. I wish I'd noticed the Page  30 . I sifted through the index.   Everything's there. Take the guess workout of being close. Nev

Edited January 3 by facthunter
more content.

[turboplanner]

If I had flown some of the actions described above, I would have been killed:

 

1. When under instruction doing a forced landing where, as we got close each option I had was blocked by something with the Instructor saying "Well we crashed and burned on that one. (This was the 4th of 6 I did on that lesson.) without the engine we would have gone in.

 

2. In all my flying life I'd never had wind shear, just neat smooth descents on final. On

    this day I got a wind shear on final and before I reacted the Instructor gave it WOT and we ballooned up. Without the engine we would have hit the ground hard.

 

3. About six months later, now with an extra skill under my belt I got another wind shear on final and slammed on WOT. My highly regarded CFI yelled "ffffull throttle" just as the throttle hit the stops.

 

Some people make direct comparisons with gliders but RA aircraft don't have glider airbrakes and pulling off a landing you are overshooting at full adrenaline for an engine out is not so easy in a powered airctraft, and most RA aircraft are very high drag, so not quite so safe to stretch out a glide, if your practice goes wrong.

 

I've known some people do engine off glides regular and also do aerobatics and beat ups; about half of them are dead.

 

So I would not reommend picking on some overseas story which might or might not be totally true and trying it out for yourself when (a) it's illegal and (b) you can't guarantee the outcome if you are hit by a curve like wind shear.

Edited January 3 by turboplanner

[facthunter]

Good stuff. By the way, people, You Can't stretch a glide and you risk losing control if you attempt it. There's a best speed and that's it aerodynamically..  Nev

[JG3]

I've done engine off landings scores of times over 20 years. always hit the target. 

Particularly easy in a Savannah aircraft due to it's excellent glide stability, ability for stable slips for a steep descent, and gentle stall characteristics for a controlled touch-down. Maintain glide at 60 kts rather than best glide at 50, for spare dynamic energy if needed. Come in a bit high and slip down to an exact touch-down point. Easy.

Wouldn't attempt it in just any aircraft.

I've flown a couple of thousand hours on X-country flights, and always wanted to be able to do a precise spot landing anywhere if emergency.

Would have been frightening if I had done all that with no practice and experience. 

I mostly follow the written rules, but if those rules don't match my need for safety than I'll do it my way.

[facthunter]

In Flying training plenty of people got killed trying to train to not be killed. The laws are made considering all aspects. IF they are ridiculous work to have them changed. . I happen to agree with this one. It's risky advocating for regulation non observance publicly. Youb may encourage others. Learn the difference for your plane. safely and apply it if the need arises. When you have an engine failure away from the circuit you don't know the wind or the actual height above terrain as well as the surface you have to land on.. Nev

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, kgwilson said:

I have had instructors turn the engine off when performing a BFR though I've no idea of the legality of doing so. I have done the same to check glide performance and really didn't find any difference. There may have been a little but it wasn't obvious. The important thing is to turn the Mag switches back on as soon as the prop stops just in case you need a quick start

I have also done that kind of testing with a CFI (and we reached the same conclusion) and it is legal under RAAus rules.

[Thruster88]

I will continue to do engine off in the thruster, in my opinion it is almost essential in this type of high drag low inertia aircraft. If the 2 stroke ever does fail suddenly I will be conditioned, we don't have 3 or 4 seconds for the startle factor. Scenario based training.

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

So I would not reommend picking on some overseas story which might or might not be totally true and trying it out for yourself when (a) it's illegal and (b) you can't guarantee the outcome if you are hit by a curve like wind shear.

The scene depicted in the Italian video (above) would be legal here.  

In pursuit of greater competence and safety, I would gladly seek out such training just as I would seek out, say, upset recovery training.  

 

 

Edited January 3 by Garfly

[facthunter]

3 or 4 seconds is too long. As the motor fails the nose goes down in a draggy plane.  Nev

[turboplanner]

The excuses starting altready. I notice wind shear has been take out of the equations etc.

 

And the other factors; I gave the unsuitability of forced laanding site but there are plenty of others where you need power and another attempt. Practising without power removes the safety margin.

 

Sure, in the real thing you might not remember what to do, but THAT's what you should be practising, not some bandaid that could get you killed.

[JG3]

Also remember that the switches are ON and one hand is on the START key.

Rotax always starts IMMEDIATELY from such a shutdown.

So it's not really a committed dead engine landing.

 

Go up with a good instructor and try it several times  over a quiet airstrip, and get used to the silence, and the stick pressure required for safe glide, and control response feeling, and glide ratio, until all is familiar.

Rather than wait until it does happen unexpectedly and the sudden shock of silence causes a feeling of panic and too much to figure out at once.

When it is familiar it's a glorious feeling of control, with just the sound of wind whistling by. Could become addictive....

[turboplanner]

Sorry no credibility.

[Garfly]

2 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Sorry no credibility.

Sorry no substance.

[facthunter]

Rotax  starters are no different to others. and can have engagement problems. You certainly cannot start one by increasing speed as you CAN with some direct drive engines. Nev.

[Garfly]

True, but whenever I've done (dual) engine-off practice glides the Rotax has burst back to life instantly.

But still, nobody depends on it so that training is always done within easy reach of an ample runway.

 

 

 

[facthunter]

They start easier because you are moving, but they still NEED the starter to operate,  IF you have Variable pitch use coarse pitch to apply the best turning force initially. The effect of the prop stopped varies a lot. You should be aware of how your plane is affected and it's only ONE of the many variables you will encounter oved NEW countryside,.   Nev

[rodgerc]

4 hours ago, JG3 said:

Also remember that the switches are ON and one hand is on the START key.

Rotax always starts IMMEDIATELY from such a shutdown.

So it's not really a committed dead engine landing.

 

Go up with a good instructor and try it several times  over a quiet airstrip, and get used to the silence, and the stick pressure required for safe glide, and control response feeling, and glide ratio, until all is familiar.

Rather than wait until it does happen unexpectedly and the sudden shock of silence causes a feeling of panic and too much to figure out at once.

When it is familiar it's a glorious feeling of control, with just the sound of wind whistling by. Could become addictive....

Keep doing what you do Gilpi…You’re a recreational aviation legend around the airfield with joie de vivre that most can only aspire to.

[RFguy]

I think I'd like to have at least 500 feet to lose  to restart the Lycoming in my PA28....  and probably  wouldnt attempt it below maybe 1000 feet if there was a place to land in sight.... better to concentrate on the landing, unless you have someone competent in the other seat  to fly it while you are dealing with the primer etc, troubleshooting..... 

[turboplanner]

10 hours ago, RFguy said:

I think I'd like to have at least 500 feet to lose  to restart the Lycoming in my PA28....  and probably  wouldnt attempt it below maybe 1000 feet if there was a place to land in sight.... better to concentrate on the landing, unless you have someone competent in the other seat  to fly it while you are dealing with the primer etc, troubleshooting..... 

GA training for a PA28 140 or Warrior where the engine fails on take off is usually FUEL (tap change) > MIXTURE RICH > SWITCHES L>R > aim between two houses or factories.

 

It's forced landings where, after the above preliminary it's TRIM for 75 kts followed by the forced landing checklist.

 

It's the trim action which gets the aircraft on an optimum descent path with the engine off. 

[NT5224]

On 2/1/2025 at 5:48 PM, Garfly said:

 

While looking for that anti-heat-soak cowl-flap story for re-posting in Skippy's  Linear Actuator thread I was taken back to the main topic of JG3's original thread: Prop Stopped.  I reckon it's probably worth a bump; some interesting discussion around whether we should, from time to time, practise real dead-stick landings.

 

And then, out of the blue, I came upon this example.

(I see the instructor returned the switches to ON ready for a restart if needed) :

 

 

 

Hi All

 

Great, very instructive video. 
 

I hate to criticise, the emergency was well handled, but  I thought  the pilot landed very long at high speed. In a real off strip situation you probably want to glide at best rate to make of your touch down point, but then slow things up when you’re sure you’re in. 
 

I’ve had two engine out emergencies in real life flying,  but  am still learning. Helpful to see this exercise.

 

Alan 

[Garfly]

 

 

Whilst on the tricky topic of best-glide, I've found some of this discussion useful:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, this vid is good at demonstrating that minimum sink is not the same as maximum range (wind effects aside):

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP8KL4j9yA8

 

 

 

 

Also, I've been playing around with  OzRwy's Glide Assistant in a simulator.  It can can be used in planning and/or in real time. Not sure if, faced with an engine out situation you'd think to consult it but a quick glance might suggest a direction for longest range - in prevailing winds aloft.  Anyway, it automatically cuts out at 1500' AGL probably in order to suggest that now is definitely look-outside time.

 

User guidance here (18.5) : 

 

18. Special Features

DOCS.OZRUNWAYS.COM

 

 

 

 

 

And this academic take is exhaustive (and exhausting) and might interest those who know the maths.

 

Straight Gliding Flight | Academic Flight

ACADEMICFLIGHT.COM

---

This article deals with straight gliding flight, as it is encountered during an engine-out emergency or in a glider. Controlling (and maximizing) glide

 

[facthunter]

That's fair enough . Make the field is important and don't get far downwind A very draggy plane can do an overspeed approach which is  steep and not a lot faster. Allow for a double flair. IF the approach is into wind and the wind is significant, err on the faster airspeed side. ( reduces the time the wind is blowing you away) where the wind equals airspeed , you are not gaining any ground  towards the runway at all. and IF you are out landing you don't know your height above the ground either. Into wind should be a priority Your  kinetic energy is reduced there regarding the ground. Lower actual ground speed. =s less damage less ground run needed.  Nev.

[Moneybox]

One day while nearing the end of the airstrip on the downwind leg of the circuit, cruising at 100kt and 1000ft, my trainer pulled the throttle to idle. He said, you've just lost you engine, what are you going to do?

 

Remembering my study I quickly eased the stick forward, he immediately pulled it back saying "No, look at your speed. You are wasting height". We were cruising at 1000' and easily had sufficient speed to gain considerably more height gaining time and glide distance. I don't remember what height we got but it was well worth using burning off our speed to gain the height. It gave us time to discuss a strategy.

 

Next he said "Where are you going to land"? I said "I can easily make to runway". So he instructed me to head directly to the downwind end of the runway, I headed beyond the end of the runway so that I could turn back but he said "No aim for the end, we've got more than a kilometer of runway to land on but we want to make sure we get there first".

 

Once we reached the runway I did a steep turn and steep decent coming in for a perfect landing on full flaps within the first half on the runway. It was a much steeper approach that I'd done previously or since but felt very smooth and controlled although a quite a bit faster.

 

He never cut the engine and I doubt he ever will. 

[facthunter]

I don't like the steep turn onto final  bit. and I would have let you DO your thing as that was what he was asking you to do initially. You end up not knowing what HE wants, and we all want to please our Instructor don't we?   Nev.