jackc Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 7 hours ago, jackc said: deleted...mod I am sorry, all my life I have always championed the cause of the underdog....... AND will never stop, until I am in my grave.......
Jerry_Atrick Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 I'm not sure what the RAAus flight instructors courses cover, but GA flight instructors courses cover little about actually flying, and more about how to teach people in a cockpit and ground briefing environment. A lot of emphasis is on communication, how to impart knowledge, identifying student's reactions, cognitive patterns, and working with them through different techniques to encourage and affirm to them when things are tough for them - which happens in virtually every student (yes, there are some true sky gods, but not many). IN other words, it teaches people what to do when their students are paying to try and kill them... So, I find it strange that someone - especially one who owns (or who's partner owns) a school that they would blanket turn you away. Even if you are a little too nervous or not committed, every flight they do is money in their pocket and often I have found instructors and schools push well past the point of identifying students who will never become pilots to extract as much cash from them as they can..Often, they hope these students never stop trying. I know Shepparton, Kialla, Devenish areas reasonably well, and I would be surprised if the school is that over-subscribed they would turn people away, except in the most peak of times. Yes, Susan may well have taken a disliking to you at first sight, but it is an extreme reaction to not only want to no longer instruct you, but to bar you from the school, where other instructors may have a lot better relationship and success with you. You have already shown one hallmark of a good pilot - to seek information about something when you don't understand it.. Another hallmark is to self-reflect and try and identify what went wrong... Look back at your flights - was there something that you did thinking to be entirely normal that may have resulted in a subtle reaction of disapproval or discomfort in your instructor? It may have been something entirely unintentional - for example, mishearing a request and doing the opposite, or maybe consistently too tentatively at the controls coupled with a lack of patience on her side.. Replay your lessons in your mind and look for her responses (admittedly you will have been concentrating hard on the flying, so you may completely have missed it). Her reaction, even from the gender that the big fella in the heavens himself struggles to understand, just seems too extreme from what I would expect from a trained instructor.. (hmm.. is she really accredited... We had a situation where there was an "instructor" who wasn't accredited - guess what - every hour of instruction of his students' were invalidated and their licences pulled). @farri is absolutely right... find an instructor you really click with. If you thought you clicked with the Susan, but she didn't with you, despite the attractive rates on offer, it would eventually come out during the more advanced stages of training and cost you a lot more. Find a school/instructor you click with, even if it does cost a bit more.. Hopefully after you have your certificate, you will spend many more happy hours in the sky, that the total cost of your training will pale into insignifcance compared to the total cost of you having the best time of your life. 3 1
robinsm Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 Has anyone actually contacted the school involved for their input...for their side of the incident.. 4 1
New2flying Posted January 17, 2021 Author Posted January 17, 2021 15 hours ago, spacesailor said: Hey !, I might do that email, to my old flying club !, as I did Not get my logbook filled, after that disaster flight. AS a matter of fact, the same thing happened for my first entry, every one to busy to SIGN my log book. So the first entry is not signed. spacesailor My book isn't signed either? Does it need to be signed?
facthunter Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 Some things are, but it's usually some thing like" Certified hours flown in the last six months with You Beaut Flying school (stamp.). XXX Hours . I 've always done my own monthly summaries. There's usually a training FILE filled in by each of your Instructors as applicable to flights/training\ performed. Nev
RFguy Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 this particular circumstance has been discussed a few weeks ago in another forum. the conclusion was : 1) maybe you had a personality clash. move on, find another school... 2) maybe there are two sides to the story... move on , find another school... Life is too short. 2 2
APenNameAndThatA Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 8 hours ago, robinsm said: Has anyone actually contacted the school involved for their input...for their side of the incident.. I can’t believe this got three upvotes. The school already gave their side of the story to the OP, and the school is hardly going to comment to a third party about OP. Maybe the comment was to the effect that there would have been two sides to the story or something. Feel free to explain what I am missing.
jackc Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 7 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said: I can’t believe this got three upvotes. The school already gave their side of the story to the OP, and the school is hardly going to comment to a third party about OP. Maybe the comment was to the effect that there would have been two sides to the story or something. Feel free to explain what I am missing. NO one person is a winner in the above case......went down this road at a Gliding School 6 years ago. The instructor did me a favour as I am now doing RAA......so I had a ‘win’ for me in the finish 🙂 1
SplitS Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 I flew into Shep recently. You have a fantastic community there but the vibe from the flight school was weird. I did not think to much about it some flight schools act like they own the place some are fantastic and welcoming. What you could do is take a "flying holiday" find somewhere where you like the instructor and spend a week flying with them then see how you go and what they think of your flying. Don't let one bad interaction stop you from chasing your dreams. 2
robinsm Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 15 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said: I can’t believe this got three upvotes. The school already gave their side of the story to the OP, and the school is hardly going to comment to a third party about OP. Maybe the comment was to the effect that there would have been two sides to the story or something. Feel free to explain what I am missing. the point of the post
APenNameAndThatA Posted January 19, 2021 Posted January 19, 2021 5 hours ago, robinsm said: the point of the post I'm still not getting it.
Garfly Posted January 19, 2021 Posted January 19, 2021 (edited) See if this helps: robinsm was pointing out that in human affairs there are commonly two sides to a dispute and that one side ain't always the most reliable advocate of the other side's position. Simpler to get than lift theory, if you ask me. Edited January 19, 2021 by Garfly 2
SplitS Posted January 19, 2021 Posted January 19, 2021 While it is true there is always two side's the flying school should have been more professional after all that is what they get payed to do. Build confidence, encourage more people into aviation, etc,etc the fact that they have someone walking away disgruntled in a relatively small community is not a good look. I hope they both sides learn and move on and New2flying does not give up on their dreams.
skippydiesel Posted January 19, 2021 Posted January 19, 2021 1 minute ago, SplitS said: While it is true there is always two side's the flying school should have been more professional after all that is what they get payed to do. Build confidence, encourage more people into aviation, etc,etc the fact that they have someone walking away disgruntled in a relatively small community is not a good look. I hope they both sides learn and move on and New2flying does not give up on their dreams. Not saying I know the circumstances in this case however having been involved with customer relations, at frequent intervals throughout my working life, I can tell you that sometimes a customer just doesnt like the polite, measured, unbiased advice/recommendation you might give, to the point of doing the proverbial dummy spit - who knows what may be going on in their life to cause such an unreasonable disproportionate reaction - it just happens and its very uncomfortable. I was in Woolworths the other day - this guy just starts slinging off at one of the staff. She tried to explain, very politely & in a calm low voice, that she supervised the self service , he very loudly and aggressively demanded that she serve him. To keep the piece she endeavoured to do so, all the while having to attend other customers with problems at their self serve. He loudly complained every time she was called away. He eventually departed with his groceries, telling the poor lady he would lodge a formal complaint about her lack of service. While he was still close by, I made a point of complimenting her on her patience & professionalism - got a very filthy look from the man. Apparently he comes in every week or so and goes through the whole bullying act - not nice! Story above not in any way related to this Thread topic - just illustrating that service providers sometimes have to put up with very difficult customers. 1
APenNameAndThatA Posted January 19, 2021 Posted January 19, 2021 4 hours ago, Garfly said: See if this helps: robinsm was pointing out that in human affairs there are commonly two sides to a dispute and that one side ain't always the most reliable advocate of the other side's position. Simpler to get than lift theory, if you ask me. Got it
Blueadventures Posted January 19, 2021 Posted January 19, 2021 1 hour ago, skippydiesel said: Not saying I know the circumstances in this case however having been involved with customer relations, at frequent intervals throughout my working life, I can tell you that sometimes a customer just doesnt like the polite, measured, unbiased advice/recommendation you might give, to the point of doing the proverbial dummy spit - who knows what may be going on in their life to cause such an unreasonable disproportionate reaction - it just happens and its very uncomfortable. I was in Woolworths the other day - this guy just starts slinging off at one of the staff. She tried to explain, very politely & in a calm low voice, that she supervised the self service , he very loudly and aggressively demanded that she serve him. To keep the piece she endeavoured to do so, all the while having to attend other customers with problems at their self serve. He loudly complained every time she was called away. He eventually departed with his groceries, telling the poor lady he would lodge a formal complaint about her lack of service. While he was still close by, I made a point of complimenting her on her patience & professionalism - got a very filthy look from the man. Apparently he comes in every week or so and goes through the whole bullying act - not nice! Story above not in any way related to this Thread topic - just illustrating that service providers sometimes have to put up with very difficult customers. My son worked at Coles in his senior years of school before embarking on his apprenticeship and some of the lifeskills he experienced and learnt about was the good, bad and entertaining people in society. 1
New2flying Posted January 23, 2021 Author Posted January 23, 2021 On 17/01/2021 at 7:02 PM, poteroo said: I'd suggest the RAAus Operations Manager or Assistant Ops Manager for a chat. You might also send a written request, (email), for your file from that flying school - it is yours, and they must provide it within a reasonable time. If it doesn't turn up, then the RAAus Ops Mgr would be very interested. Keep at it. I followed this advice. She said that she would only give it to another CFI, which I found ridiculous. I instructed a lawyer.
Thruster88 Posted January 23, 2021 Posted January 23, 2021 18 minutes ago, New2flying said: I followed this advice. She said that she would only give it to another CFI, which I found ridiculous. I instructed a lawyer. Dont do that you will regret it.
Jerry_Atrick Posted January 23, 2021 Posted January 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Thruster88 said: Dont do that you will regret it. I have to admit, my first thoughts were, "why?", so would be interested in your thoughts... If there is a legal obligation that is not being fulfilled and there is no reasonable way to see it being fulfilled, then, the question would be "why not?" Before one can asnwer either question, the natural question to ask is, what was th elawyer instructed to do? But, lets assume it was to seek specific performance to hand over the log book and training records, I can't see an issue with that - will no other school touch @New2flying as a result? I have no idea how much lawyers charge, but I am guessing it is about $250/hr up... so on a practical level, if it is going to cost you $1,000 to recoup $500 worth of training, it may be worth just moving on. However, most letters written by lawyers will demand their fee be paid as well (assuming the lawyer believed their client had a case and exhausted reasonable avenues to obtain their outcome). One would hope the lawyer would act in their client's best interest and advise appropriate action to obtain their records without unduw personal reputatrional or financial damage.. Back to the question - what was the lawyer instructed to do?
alf jessup Posted January 23, 2021 Posted January 23, 2021 Only one will win and that’s the lawyer as the win whether you win lose or draw, just need to take a cup of concrete and harden up, get over it move on as you will be better for it not going through that school. 2
Jerry_Atrick Posted January 23, 2021 Posted January 23, 2021 I just wanted to know if it were more than that (RAA is a small world as far as I can see, so wanted to know if there were other potential ramifications)... Although, sometimes, the principle is more important than the money - it will be @New2flying's judgement... as long as he is getting impartial and good advice - his decision to make.. If the school is that bad (and there are always 2 sides of the story) and it goes further, it can be a warning to other potential students. As I said, there's always two sides to a stroy, so not casting any aspertions on the school..
APenNameAndThatA Posted January 23, 2021 Posted January 23, 2021 2 hours ago, New2flying said: I followed this advice. She said that she would only give it to another CFI, which I found ridiculous. I instructed a lawyer. Don’t do that. Just get her to send it to a CFI. Also, no one cares what *you* find ridiculous. Find out if there are any regulations. If you can’t find any, ask CASA.
APenNameAndThatA Posted January 23, 2021 Posted January 23, 2021 37 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said: I have to admit, my first thoughts were, "why?", so would be interested in your thoughts... If there is a legal obligation that is not being fulfilled and there is no reasonable way to see it being fulfilled, then, the question would be "why not?" Before one can asnwer either question, the natural question to ask is, what was th elawyer instructed to do? But, lets assume it was to seek specific performance to hand over the log book and training records, I can't see an issue with that - will no other school touch @New2flying as a result? I have no idea how much lawyers charge, but I am guessing it is about $250/hr up... so on a practical level, if it is going to cost you $1,000 to recoup $500 worth of training, it may be worth just moving on. However, most letters written by lawyers will demand their fee be paid as well (assuming the lawyer believed their client had a case and exhausted reasonable avenues to obtain their outcome). One would hope the lawyer would act in their client's best interest and advise appropriate action to obtain their records without unduw personal reputatrional or financial damage.. Back to the question - what was the lawyer instructed to do? It doesn’t need to be this complicated. She said she would send it to a CFI, so get a CFI to request it.
cscotthendry Posted January 23, 2021 Posted January 23, 2021 New2flying As others have said, you're well shot of her. Learning to fly can be stressful and you really need a cooperative partner in the cockpit while you're doing it, not an adversary. I lost quite a number of flying years because of previous instructors like your Susan. The guy who got me in the air gave me this piece of sage advice; “Flying is just another mechanical skill like driving or riding a bike. Anyone can do it, but you have to stick with it. Also, a lot of people reach a point in their training where they think ‘I can't make this work, I can't learn to fly’. But they can if they stock with it.” That part about “I can't make this work, I can't learn to fly” cost me 10 wasted flying years because of a previous instructor. As soon as my instructor mentioned that part, lightbulbs were flashing everywhere for me. Stick with it. Don't get discouraged and don't give up. Be prepared to change instructors as often as necessary until you find one who your comfortable with in the cockpit. The end result is worth all the money and hard work. Believe me! 1
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