Lowering Class E between Melbourne and Cairns

[kgwilson]

Isn't that just the point though. It doesn't need to respond to interrogations because it is continually transmitting ADSB position data out which the (newer) TCAS can read & of course if the RPT aircraft has an old TCAS, they just need to add ADSB in and preferably out as well to have all traffic info & Skyecho jockeys will have it all as well.

[graham brown]

The RPTs don’t want to spend the money for ads-b in. They want all of us to spend the money so they can keep what they have.

[RFguy]

KG, yeah. but  the SKyecho is not reliable

Skyecho type of EC is AUGMENTATION  to a more reliable device (installed transponder).

 

it has batteries, it could run out . 

it has an indoor antenna , so the radiation pattern could be 5nm in one direction and 20 in the other

it might be installed differently every time used 

The user might enter googly gook into it

 

 

 

 

[kgwilson]

RPT have fuel and it could run out. It is all about planning. Yes SE2 could be installed in a bad position but not likely. Why would any pilot who has just spent $900 on a piece of equipment designed to show traffic in the area put it in a position where it is not getting the best view. That is left to idiots who buy something and don't even open the manual and then say it doesn't work. That is not my experience with Pilots who install Nav gear or any other piece of equipment for that matter.

[horsefeathers]

What transponder would I need?

 

So, let's say that I am the owner of a shiny new SkyEcho, the Airservices proposal has just been approved in all its glory by CASA, and I want a cheap, but functional ADSB unit that meets the current regs for flying in class E.

What mode transponder do i need, assuming I will fly with my Sky Echo?

Also, is it a self install job, or does it have to be professionally installed? (I DO own a 5Kg hammer to help with maintenance tasks)

 

(Sorry for the dumb question, but I cant seem to clarify this to my own satisfaction)

[shags_j]

There's going to a lot of changes over the next few years. All I can say is make sure you submit your feedback as per the appropriate web pages (Lowering Class E on the East Coast | Engage Airservices (airservicesaustralia.com)). Make sure your voice is heard. I promise all of these are taken seriously.

[walrus]

What I think people need to consider here are the questions of standards and reliability. I went into these in some detail a while ago in an effort to  convince myself that a certain GPS was capable of meeting the necessary TSO's. I failed.

 

The simple fact is that as long as Airservices or CASA's backside points to the ground, they are NOT going to allow you to tool around anywhere near an RPT jet aircraft from B737 on up, without a TSO'd transponder and GNSS position source (NOT TSO C199) because they have to GUARANTEE separation.

 

To put that another way, they are not going to risk you becoming engine fodder for an A380 because your Sky Echo battery went flat, or it's two dollar multi layer PCB cracked. Folks, it's consumer electronics, not something to risk 300+ lives on. That is why I call it a toy. One that may give you a false sense of security. For example, how do you positively KNOW there is no traffic? Are you sure its position is correct?  What if the Antenna has failed?

 

Yes transponders are old technology, so is the internal combustion engine. Yes ADS-B might be better but the cost of doing a certified installation in RPT aircraft is stratospheric. The aviation industry is super conservative for good reason.

 

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by walrus

[Garfly]

Okay, but what then is an 'integrated TABS' device?

(the low-cost option that CASA does say is allowable to substitute for a transponder in Class E?)

Would you call that a toy too?

Also, there are very few places that VFR/RecAv aircraft are, at present, mixing it with B737 aircraft and bigger in Class G. Certainly not the entire east coast J-curve.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Garfly

[SplitS]

Transponders are  old tech and are being replaced with ADSB, This is the FAA's long term plan.

"Certified" avionics have the same components the same board manufacture as non certified there is no reason they are any more reliable.  In fact because the manufacture has to spend so much on the certification they do not get updated, the design gets locked in even is it could be improved it won't be due to having to re-certify.  What certified means is old out of date tech that is nowhere near as good as the new stuff or is some cases as reliable. Note vac pump failures vs solid state giros for instruments.

 

We are discussing class E airspace not class A,B or C. Skyecho would be a huge improvement in safety for very little cost if you coupled it with broad casting your position over the mobile phone network like Oz runways do (I know it's not 100% coverage) you would end up with a lot of redundancy way more than you get with a single 40 year old transponder and the odd inept ATC controller watching the screen.

 

 

 

 

[jackc]

Then add the fact that work is being done to interface an external antenna connection to the Skyecho device by Mark Kyle.

This can only improve performance and I wonder WHY the manufacturer did not offer this in the first place.

 

[RFguy]

At the end of the day, the Skyecho while it augments  a transponder, is not a reliable device (no ship power, no real antenna).

 

Eventually, aircraft all aircraft will use ADSB squitter and there will be no need for transponders.

 

Until all aircraft have ADSB-IN style TCAS functionality, you'll need a transponder.

 

-glem

 

 

 

 

[jackc]

Good safety cannot happen EVENTUALLY,  it needs immediate planning and right now Skyecho is as good as it gets BUT it needs to be improved.

 

[Kyle Communications]

The antenna issue with the SE2 of course will be some requirement to the specs they had to build/design the device to by the relevent FAA or CASA or the Brits. It says in their paperwork that no mods are allowed but we all all know that to get the most out of something it needs to be modified usually 🙂

if you keep the SE2 plugged into the USB supply it will stay powered and the battery doesnt go flat of course

 

[kgwilson]

Aircraft lose their power supply all the time which is why we have engines independent of it. Battery technology has improved dramatically since lightweight lithium and others types were introduced. The likelihood of someone going flying with a flat or half flat Skyecho is pretty remote. Anyway it has a USB-C connection so you can keep the battery charged while you fly plus the battery LED has a traffic light system to tell you the state of charge.

 

How it is positioned is up to the user but the instructions printed below are dead simple and clear. You therefore don't need an external antenna.

 

SkyEcho should be placed vertically orientated on an aircraft window with the optional suction cupmount with line of sight and visibility in the direction of travel and to the sky for the internal GPS. Installation location can significantly impact the receive and transmit range of the device.

[RFguy]

skyecho needs an afterburner...

[jackc]

8 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

Aircraft lose their power supply all the time which is why we have engines independent of it. Battery technology has improved dramatically since lightweight lithium and others types were introduced. The likelihood of someone going flying with a flat or half flat Skyecho is pretty remote. Anyway it has a USB-C connection so you can keep the battery charged while you fly plus the battery LED has a traffic light system to tell you the state of charge.

 

How it is positioned is up to the user but the instructions printed below are dead simple and clear. You therefore don't need an external antenna.

 

SkyEcho should be placed vertically orientated on an aircraft window with the optional suction cupmount with line of sight and visibility in the direction of travel and to the sky for the internal GPS. Installation location can significantly impact the receive and transmit range of the device.

I am working on a backup independent supply for my aircraft incorporating this power board on my panel....

[walrus]

Just discovered that I configured my transponder to output ADSB with SIL = 0. My aircraft shows up on Sky Echo units and also FR24.

[Old Koreelah]

23 hours ago, RFguy said:

...Eventually, aircraft all aircraft will use ADSB squitter and there will be no need for transponders.

 

Until all aircraft have ADSB-IN style TCAS functionality, you'll need a transponder.

 Why would anyone spend up large on a system they know will be obsolete in a few years? 

 

[walrus]

It's not going to be obsolete for another twenty to thirty years because it is built in to all commercial jetliners for at least forty years. You are talking of tens of  thousands of jetliners.

 

For them to add another unit will require fully certified installations to be designed for each, depending on original configurations including interfacing with existing equipment. As Dick Smith found out, you are talking billions and billions of dollars. Furthermore the system is not stand alone like TCAS but relies on the GPS system.

[jackc]

I just submitted my comment to Airservices Australia over their proposal.  Sent one to RAA 10 days ago that they quickly acknowledged receipt. I hope everyone swamps ASA with comments, so many they have to put on extra staff to sort through the sh1tstorm they are trying to create......

[Bennyboy320]

So I’ve just read the latest from RAAUS, not only do Airsevices want mode S transponders fitted in Class E airspace they apparently will require dual VHF radio’s, wow the radio requirement not even currently required to operate in Class C airspace, what next? 2 x autopilots or perhaps GPWS. Unbelievable 😡

[jackc]

3 minutes ago, Bennyboy320 said:

So I’ve just read the latest from RAAUS, not only do Airsevices want mode S transponders fitted in Class E airspace they apparently will require dual VHF radio’s, wow the radio requirement not even currently required to operate in Class C airspace, what next? 2 x autopilots or perhaps GPWS. Unbelievable 😡

Avionics sellers will scavenge up as many old transponders from all corners of the earth and try to rip off everyone with overpriced, poorly supported old junk.

I am waiting......

[Thruster88]

You cannot legally fit a non ADS-B transponder into  an aircraft that currently has no transponder. All new installs must be ADS-B in VH land, RAus may or may not not have that requirement.  

[Bennyboy320]

Well I’ve just looked through the AIP & there is NO requirement to have dual VHF radios to legally operate in ANY airspace in Australia, looks like Airservices is just making things up as they go along.

[jackc]

They probably paid some kind of industry unrelated consultant to produce their proposal......