Lowering Class E between Melbourne and Cairns

[Garfly]

Maybe the cooperative stance that CASA took to the introduction of SkyEcho2 is all about running a real world experiment; just to see how they work out in practice.  If so, when the results are in they might either drop their current standards and let this level of EC device in, or persuade a maker to build a TABS at a similar price.

At which point the SE2 guinea pigs will need to re-equip if they want to fly high or far or safe. 

Of course, this group won't be as p'd off as those who, in good faith, have equipped with full-blown old-school transponders who'll also have to re-equip with the new low-cost thingy in order to enter the newly sanctified space of E.

On the up side, pilot peeps won't be forced to stare at their iPad if they don't want to - just so long as old Rex has a shot at seeing us lot on his CDTI Nav screen. ;- )

[Roscoe]

Will a Mode S Transponder get you into Class E without a clearance?
just trying to get my head around all this

[Kyle Communications]

Being simplistic Mode S is ADSB and is what CASA wanted introduce back in 2014

 

[walrus]

An EC device will get you into class E Airspace and nowhere else.

 

What pisses me off is that GPS equipment that is legal in the USA - accepted by the FAA for adsb, isn't legal here because, well, we are special.........

[Garfly]

27 minutes ago, walrus said:

An EC device will get you into class E Airspace and nowhere else.

 

That's what I thought, at first (when the EC position integrity was SIL>=1 ) but now even that seems not to be the case.  I believe, at this point, there are actually no 'low-cost' devices available that will get us into E.  However, I reckon CASA are planning on some  (integrated TABS devices) being available by the time ASA's Airspace Modernisation Program comes into force - if ever. I reckon there's little chance of it happening by the end of this year, the deadline ASA seems to have in mind.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Garfly

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, Roscoe said:

Will a Mode S Transponder get you into Class E without a clearance?
just trying to get my head around all this

I believe that's the case now and I presume will be in the foreseeable future.

[RFguy]

1 hour ago, Kyle Communications said:

"Will a Mode S Transponder get you into Class E without a clearance?"

Being simplistic Mode S is ADSB and is what CASA wanted introduce back in 2014

 

NO, not quite... so the answer Rosco is NO.

 

There are two types of Mode S in common use. Mode-S and Mode S-ES

Mode S provides functionality similar to Mode C. There are a few extra things it can do for the network , messages etc. Aircraft ID / Flight ID is transmitted. Mode S radar sites can send Traffic information as messages etc.
 

Transponders like the GTX330, that's plain vanilla Mode S.

Then there is a GTX330ES version. It needs a GPS attached.

 

Mode S-ES Extended squitter- that  amounts to ADSB-OUT.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Garfly]

This ASA doc may - or may not - help clarify the issue:

 

Mode S transponders, ADS-B and VFR aircraft

 

Mode S transponders, ADS-B and VFR aircraft _ Airservices.pdf

[RFguy]

Yeah that is a reasonable document. Does sort of spell out the ModeS-ES (ADSB out) and standard Mode S. 

You can get a GTX330 (Mode S) for abotu $1200 aussie. upgrade the ES is about 2500.. That' snot a bad ...OR you can buy a new KT74 or GTX335. includes GPS option for the garmin $4500. That's a sensible option.

 

So unless I had $4500 burning a hole in my pocket, I would just use a Mode A/C (SSR visibility)  .. (my old Microair in my aircraft)  and a Skyecho .. (ADSB IN and OUT) . *  

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by RFguy

[Roscoe]

Ok so I have a TRIG Mode S Transponder. From memory cost about $2500 back in 2014. 
It’s calibrated with the Encoder, and transmits my Rego, Alt, and airspeed. Has its own HEX Code obviously.
It’s the small one that fits in the instrument hole and is a companion to my TRIG VHF Radio.

I believe I satisfy the requirement to operate in Class E from my reading of the requirements.

[Garfly]

On 03/02/2021 at 10:52 AM, pylon500 said:

'Welcome to OneSky™ Australia, where we want everyone to be included.'

To be included in 'OneSky'™ will cost you about ten thousand dollars per aircraft for initial installation,

An annual fee will be paid to 'OneSky'™ to register each of your required devices,

You will have to comply with all 'OneSky'™ decision changes as they come,

If you wish to leave your circuit area you will need a flightplan lodged with 'OneSky'™,

With 'OneSky'™, you will be safely integrated with;

•Military aircraft,

•International Airlines,

•Civilian Airlines,

•Regional freight aircraft,

•Military IFR traffic,

•Civilian IFR traffic,

•Private IFR trafic,

•Military UAVs,

•Civilian UAVs,

note: If you cannot comply with the integration of 'OneSky'™, you probably shouldn't be flying (it is for rich people after all).

 

WE hope you enjoy your 'OneSky'™ experience.♥

I think I've found the perfect guy to run OneSky:

 

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/pauline-hanson-s-chief-of-staff-investigated-over-flights

[RFguy]

16 minutes ago, Roscoe said:

Ok so I have a TRIG Mode S Transponder. From memory cost about $2500 back in 2014. 
It’s calibrated with the Encoder, and transmits my Rego, Alt, and airspeed. Has its own HEX Code obviously.
It’s the small one that fits in the instrument hole and is a companion to my TRIG VHF Radio.

I believe I satisfy the requirement to operate in Class E from my reading of the requirements.

Right, but it does not transmit ADSB-B IE it is not an Extended squitter jobbie.

Ask the mfr for a ModeS-ES/ADSB upgrade.   otherwise, you will need a SkyEcho, also (maybe depending one what we end up with....)

 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by RFguy

[Roscoe]

4 minutes ago, RFguy said:

Right, but it does not transmit ADSB-B IE it is not an Extended squitter jobbie.

Ask the mfr for a ModeS-ES/ADSB upgrade.   otherwise, you will need a SkyEcho, also (maybe depending one what we end up with....)

 

 

Think I will just request a clearance from ATC which in my past experience, shouldnt be a problem.

They will be able to identify me on Radar from my transponder return and be glad to assist!

[Garfly]

Sounds good Roscoe - except that, if the proposal stands, it'd mean your having to do that every time you climb out of the circuit.  I'm pretty sure ATC folks won't be overjoyed at the prospect of nice little chats with every Sunday flyer who pops up from the weeds along the entire eastern J curve.  It seems it's surveillance they're after, more than control, in E; air-to-air as much as air-to-centre.

[graham brown]

4 hours ago, Kyle Communications said:

Wasnt there a mandate from CASA that all aircraft would have to be ADSB compliant by 2020. But about 2017 i think they bailed on enforcing that to some other date to be determined because the cost of everyone would be too high. So I think ADSB will be the norm eventualy anyway it is the cost factor. I know everyone was spewing about the cost back when it was first announced back around 2014/15

 

The mandate was for IFR aircraft and that has been implemented. VFR aircraft have various options depending on which airspace you want to use. The skyecho option was for air to air use to help see and avoid in class g airspace. It was not mandatory so the price would be low. It wasn’t meant for controlled airspace nor visibility to air traffic control. The problem is the RPTs in regional areas fly in class g airspace and do not have ADS-B IN so they can’t see them. They have tcas which need transponders. They probably whinged to ASA to increase class e airspace so they could see transponders. Obviously the alternate is the RPTs fit ADS-B IN. Modern tcas also have adsb in but the bog standard ones don’t. 

All this needs a lot of discussion with all in the industry to find a way forward. The ASA proposal has heightened the agro so finding a way forward for all in the industry, us included, is going to be difficult. Hope there is a way.

[Yenn]

Why would you need to talk to airservices if you have a transponder. All you need for Class E airspace is a transponder and the ability to talk to airservices.

Yout transponder will show them where you are but not necessarily who you are. If they need to talk to you theywill call with something like, "Traffic 25 miles S.W of Rockhampton, what are your intentions?" Then you need to reply and confirm that it is you, or not as the case may be.

It is a very handy tool to use, but overkill for most Class G airspace.

I have asked in my submission to them, How many IFR or RPT operators have expressed a desire to transit at the lower altitudes, considering that there is more turbulence and also fuel burn down low? They have acknowledged receipt but have made no comment. I hope my rather scathing comments about their past performance at rule changing are noted.

[planesmaker]

Finally got a reply, seems they are very busy with questions

 

Will vfr aircraft without transponder but fitted with low cost adsb be able to operate in class E? Or must they still be fitted with expensive transponders?   This change is proposed to proceed with the current equipage requirements as per the existing regulations.   As such, any VFR operator in Class E airspace will be required to have:  1. IFR ADS-B OUT; or 2. Mode S transponder; or 3. Mode A/C transponder; or 4. Integrated Traffic Awareness Beacon System (TABS) device

 

So sky echo is out, transponder is reqd

[Garfly]

Pretty much as expected.

So the follow up Q. is:  Where can one buy one of those TABS thingies of which you speak?

For without one aviating as we know it is practically finished in the east.

(CASA apparently class them as 'low cost' devices.)

 

 

[RFguy]

Since it is an email reply, not official advice...That is just an OPINION from someone at air services, of course. like I said , get your an old Mode A with no altitude encoder, and a Skyecho, and you'll satisfy  everyone.... 

 

I doubt they'll take the transponder requirement out in the near future. It's an accepted piece of equipment for locating airplanes. and its not expensive.

[graham brown]

TABS is USA spec, TSO C199. This is in 2 parts. An S mode transponder  and a gps. The gps to c199 is available on the market but there is no s mode transponder to c199 nor an integrated device to c199 that I know of.

[jackc]

24 minutes ago, RFguy said:

Since it is an email reply, not official advice...That is just an OPINION from someone at air services, of course. like I said , get your an old Mode A with no altitude encoder, and a Skyecho, and you'll satisfy  everyone.... 

 

I doubt they'll take the transponder requirement out in the near future. It's an accepted piece of equipment for locating airplanes. and its not expensive.

I don’t want to put some old Avionics relic that  fell off the Ark into my aircraft.

An ureliable second hand Mode A transponder like a KT76C   is worthless to me?

Shame that Sky Echo is not a total solution?
 

[Garfly]

 

8 minutes ago, jackc said:

 

Shame that Sky Echo is not a total solution?
 

 

It could be and would be for all true safety intents and purposes ...

but for the infamous over-reach and haughty contempt of the mandarins.

[jackc]

23 minutes ago, Garfly said:

 

 

It could be and would be for all true safety intents and purposes ...

but for the infamous over-reach and haughty contempt of the mandarins.

I could say something but I won’t, lest I be banned from here for life......

[horsefeathers]

20 minutes ago, Garfly said:

 

 

It could be and would be for all true safety intents and purposes ...

but for the infamous over-reach and haughty contempt of the mandarins.

Lets put some real world numbers for the Sky Echo 2 out there, just to inform the debate a bit.

 

My SkyEcho is mounted on the top of my Jabiru windscreen, fyi.

 

This morning, at 3,000 ft, I was able to see ADSB traffic approx 190 km away (using Ozrunways), from behind me.

Also, we get a fair few Qantas Link aircraft overhead, approx 25,000 ft, typically coming out of Brisbane. Never have any problem picking them up

I can see coastal traffic (about 50km away as the crow Jabiru flies), typically flying about 1,500/2,500 ft, with  hills in between.

 

Using FlightRadar 24, I can usually see my own aircraft while flying, or look at the tracking after i landed.

 

I unfortunately don't know how good the reception is of my SkyEcho, and I'd love to be able to test it with another aircraft sometime.

 

All in all, reception is brilliant, and more than sufficient for ADSB-IN, and so far with limited testing, ADSB-OUT seems more than adequate for a (say) 30Km safety zone

[jackc]

Well, WHY don’t Air Services accept it for what it is, and want this TABS b/s? Just let us fly on our merry way?   
WHY?   Because they have no idea how to run Aviation, just as well they dont subby their ideas out to the Transport Dept or we would be driving everywhere at 80kph.

Edited February 4, 2021 by jackc