OK - Give us your 2 bobs worth

[BirdDog]

So I find myself at a crossroads, with a few options to consider, and so, have a read below and throw in your 2 bob!

 

First the background.

I own an Evektor Sportstar 2007 model with a TTIS of 350 hours.  The ROTAX will be TBO in 14 months.  RAA have confirmed that I can run On Condition as long as I continue to service the aircraft (rubber replacement etc) 

However, I have been thinking on upgrading to something else, with Glass etc, but have been thinking....

 

Option 1

Sell the aircraft now, and look to buy something in line with what I want.  (Cost - Unknown)

 

Option 2

Leave everything as is and run On Condition.  (Cost - standard maintenance etc etc - No Glass)

 

Option 3

Sell my current 350 hour engine, and replace with a new 912ULS (Cost $30k less what I get for mine - Still no Glass)

 

Option 4 (and this two possibilities)

a) Run On Condition.  Install new Glass with Evektor approval and retain 24 Rego

b) Run On Condition.  Install new Glass without Evektor approval and move to E24 Rego.

 

 

At the end of the day, she is a really good bird, and I would rather keep her and get her to where I would like, but I feel if I don't get Evektor approval, which may be hard to get, then I will have to lose the 24 Rego.  I am waiting on a response from them now.  Losing the LSA status may be a good or a bad thing, depending how you look at it.

 

ALSO here's a question.... When does the clock start on the TBO?  

 

So go on - fire away.

And Happy Aus Day to  you all.  🙂

 

Cheers

J

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by BirdDog

[Marty_d]

What's the advantage of remaining on 24 rego when you're running on condition?  

As far as I know, an aircraft can't be used for training when the engine has passed 2000 / 1500 or whatever it is for the 912 type.  Can it still be cross-hired?

[skippydiesel]

My understanding is once the 24 aircraft engine exceeds TBO (engine hours or calendar) it can not be used for hire or reward ie no third party commercial use. A new engine would restore its status.

[old man emu]

20 minutes ago, BirdDog said:

ALSO here's a question.... When does the clock start on the TBO?  

Basically from the first time an engine is started after being installed in an aircraft.

 

Now the argument starts.

The Red Camp - Time in Service is that time recorded on an engine time meter (Hobbs meter or Tacho)

The Blue Camp - Time in Service is that time recorded from wheels off to wheels on - ground operation is not counted.

 

The problem is which rule do you follow? The American FAR says, Time in service, with respect to maintenance time records, means the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface of the earth until it touches it at the next point of landing. However EASA says it's from the time you light the fire until you put it out. CASR 61.010 says the same as the Yanks. So the answer is: Time in Service is wheels off to wheels on.

 

The Tacho Time meter is set to record time by interpreting the number of engine RPM. It is calibrated so that, say at 75% power, 2600 impulses equals one minute. Idling or taxying around at RPM below that 2600 impulse rate causes the meter to "run slow". So you could start up and go taxying for ten minutes, and the meter will indicate less than 10 minutes (probably eight or so). When you give the engine full rev for take off - say 2750 - the  meter will "run fast". Over the course of a typical long distance flight, the differences even out. Doing circuits would mess with the times as for a long time in the circuit you are not at 75% power.

 

A Hobbs meter works from the time you turn on the Master switch and is simply an electrically powered clock.

 

The wheels off to wheels on measurement can be made by using an air pressure switch which throws an electrical switch when the air pressure reaches a certain level. It can be plumbed into the airspeed indicator tubing and set so that when the dynamic pressure in that tubing reaches a value equal to the stall speed, it switches on the circuit for a Hobbs meter. 

 

 

Some people get into a panic about TBO and TIS. Neither system is going to give you a precise record of the time an engine has actually been running. They give a "best estimate" As long as routine maintenance is carried out at close to the recommended times, then the engine can be relied upon. It is only the Regulation that makes it an offence against CASR to operate an aircraft over time. A properly maintained engine won't disintegrate at one second after the Manufacturer's recommended TBO.

[BirdDog]

Yes.  24 Rego means the aircraft can be hired out.  I don't hire mine out.  Losing the 24 Rego with say unauthorised Glass mods, means it could never go back to hire, and so resale value will likely be affected.  Yes, true, it can't go online if on condition, but a new engine would get it back online easily.  

 

Mine only has a VDO, so the time on the clock is the time the engine has been running (Ground and air)

 

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by BirdDog

[Yenn]

I wonder how many pilots buy a plane with the intention of using it for hire or training. Does it really add much to the value?

[BirdDog]

7 minutes ago, Yenn said:

I wonder how many pilots buy a plane with the intention of using it for hire or training. Does it really add much to the value?

 

My investigations say it does.  For example, if I put my bird up for sale, flight schools will be interested!  If I am not 24 Rego - Then flight schools can't even look at my bird.  So yes, there is an impact. Exactly what that number is - that is the question.

[Jase T]

Realistically how much is it going to cost to buy an airframe in as good a condition as yours? And it will come with either a 350 hour engine or one like yours and you are in the same boat. How badly do you want the 24 rego? You are obviously planning on keeping it a while anyway. So go on condition on the engine, get the best bang for buck avionics you can and fly it up here and see the sights. 

[Kenlsa]

2 or 4a

if you hang onto it you have saved plenty of cash.

4b E24 results in an orphan that will be hard to sell.

We are converting or club ROKO to E24 as it is close to 15yrs but only 900 hrs.

As a club we can absorb the potential loss coz being made of tin we will crash it (again, first was a heavy landing, big bucks to repair!) but write it off next time.(?) As E24 we can not train in it, only make it available to club members with their full certificate. This seems to be the best way out for us.

Ken

[APenNameAndThatA]

If you can't do 4a, then the decision becomes more complicated. Lose cash because you mess up your plane, or lose cash because of the trade - you would need to research the $ cost of each option. My own experience is that a Dynon is *much* easier to read in a cockpit because it is bright. But my plane came with a Dynon because it has a fuel-injected 912. If you just want a moving map, isn't there some Garmin thing you can Velcro to the panel and not lose your factory status. What do you want glass for?

 

Disclaimer: I have 117 hrs and have never never done more to my plane than measure the tyre pressures.

[onetrack]

Always upgrade if you can afford it. Mechanical items of equipment get "old" very quickly, with the rapid passing of years. With the reference to "old", I mean - parts get harder to acquire, blueprints are thrown out, buyers become more scarce when your item of machinery is deemed "old". 20 years is a general guide to "old", as regards mechanical items.

 

Yes, you can still run them at 30 and 40 years old, but they are then classed as "antiques" - or in more kindly terms, "classic" - but nothing gets around the fact that they have been superseded, technologically, and design-wise.

 

Then there's the reliability factor of older items of equipment. Yes, you can spend big $$$'s making them as new as possible, mechanically, and electrically, and electronically - but often, it's the little annoying small non-critical things that break with age, that cause holdups and lack of availability.

 

I'd sell what you've got, and go for a newer machine that is fitted with the nicer and newer options, that you're looking for. Bugger the cost, it's only money - you forget about that angle when you're getting lots of pleasure from your new toy.

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by onetrack

[skippydiesel]

5 hours ago, BirdDog said:

So I find myself at a crossroads, with a few options to consider, and so, have a read below and throw in your 2 bob!

F.................................................................................................

 

ALSO here's a question.... When does the clock start on the TBO?  

 

 

BirdDog The TBO on your Rotax 912/914 engine is set by the manufacturer, BRP Rotax GmbH Rotax & Co (Rotax) also set out how this is to me measured ;-

• Calendar time; if your engine is a fairly recent one (I forget the manufacturing year) this will be 15 years. If an older engine could be 12 or less. For people that take some time between purchase & installation, there is an allowance, I think 2 years is the max befor the calendar starts.
• Engine hours/Hobbs time; Again set by Rotax , who  say this is from engine start to shut down (no other measure applies eg air time or oil pressure reaching a certain level indicative of high power). This has risen progressively up to 2000 hrs for more recent engines and less for older ones.

 

The above is a legally condition (on the owner).

 

It seems that most privately owned & operated Rotax powered aircraft will exceed calendar time long befor engine time.

 

Some (probably most) aviation authorities allow the engine to be operated past TBO "on condition" which usually prevents commercial use and has requirements for on going engine condition monitoring (eg annual/100 hr leak down testing)

[old man emu]

3 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

The above is a legally condition

I've had a look at CASR and FAA legal documents and I have been unable to find anything in them that says that what the manufacturer recommends as a TBO has any legal standing in Aviation Law.

 

Continental Engines has produced a Service Information Letter (SIL98-9C) on the subject of TBO hours. http://www.continental.aero/uploadedFiles/Content/xImages/TBO Page SIL98-9C.pdf

 

In that letter is this:

 

The TBO periods listed are predicated on the engine having been maintained according to the Instructions for Continued Airworthiness, accepted by the FAA, specified in the engine Maintenance Manual, Overhaul Manual, and Service Bulletins and operated within the limitations published in CMI Engine Operators Manual and the aircraft manufacturer’s Aircraft Flight Manual / Pilots Operating Handbook (AFM / POH).

And also,

TBO periods were established on most CMI engines beginning in the 1960s. Since that time, CMI has made significant engineering improvements to virtually all major engine components. CMI has refined manufacturing processes and implemented computer numerical controlled (CNC) machining tools enabling CMI factory engines to meet higher standards than possible when CMI engines were originally granted FAA Type Certificates. These improvements have enabled CMI to increase TBO limits for many of our new and rebuilt engines.

 

So, when an engine manufacturer provide the purchaser with an estimated TBO, it it only information of a commercial nature that can be used by the purchaser to choose between manufacturers. Ultimately, TBO is determined by how the engine is used, and how it is serviced. We have a great deal of experience with a certain engine that regularly was failing to meet manufacturer's TBO for reasons not associated with manner of use or maintenance. We have also had experience of engines that you couldn't destroy with a sledgehammer. 

[skippydiesel]

OME:

 

TBO & Certification implies a manufactures confidence and on going support of an engine for a defined period (similar to a warranty). It also gives the manufacture some control/influence of how the engine will be maintained (& used) after sale, thus extending the QA program.

 

I think you will find that without the manufacturers support (ie within TBO) Rotax engines (probably all certified engines) the aircraft so powered can not be used for commercial gain. Aviation authorities, always willing to devolve responsibility,  have used TBO & Certification as tools to reduce risk (to themselves) where  commercial operations are envisaged

 

You will also find that Rotax (along with a number of other manufactures) has "certified" and "non certified" engine production running in parallel. I believe that there is no mechanical/quality difference between the two engines , just that the certified has a detailed history of construction. The certification, is an assurance programme to facilitate commercially application. 

 

"With in TBO"  & "Certification" also implies a maintenance regime and manufactures support within the times (however measured) that must be followed ie failure to apply the maintenance regime  will void TBO/Certification .

 

You are absolutely correct that TBO is used as a marketing tool  - unfortunately its estimation is not based on standard criteria - we all know of  engine (lines) that routinely require major intervention (repairs) to achieve TBO while others seem to get to the projected engine hours, with just routine servicing/maintenance.

 

I would question the practical usefulness of TBO in non certified engines.

 

The marketing aspect of TBO  has become the measure that we all apply to an engine for sale - (Non Certified application) how many hours has it done ? how many years has it got left? has a lot to do with the value applied - clearly the hours is a better measure (but still flawed) the calendar times not quit useless but not far off.

 

 

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

16 hours ago, onetrack said:

Always upgrade if you can afford it. Mechanical items of equipment get "old" very quickly, with the rapid passing of years. With the reference to "old", I mean - parts get harder to acquire, blueprints are thrown out, buyers become more scarce when your item of machinery is deemed "old". 20 years is a general guide to "old", as regards mechanical items.

 

Yes, you can still run them at 30 and 40 years old, but they are then classed as "antiques" - or in more kindly terms, "classic" - but nothing gets around the fact that they have been superseded, technologically, and design-wise.

 

Then there's the reliability factor of older items of equipment. Yes, you can spend big $$$'s making them as new as possible, mechanically, and electrically, and electronically - but often, it's the little annoying small non-critical things that break with age, that cause holdups and lack of availability.

 

I'd sell what you've got, and go for a newer machine that is fitted with the nicer and newer options, that you're looking for. Bugger the cost, it's only money - you forget about that angle when you're getting lots of pleasure from your new toy.

 

Disclaimer: I am not an expert.

 

I wonder if, at 13 years old, OP's aircraft will not have already gone through most of its depreciation. That would mean that, if it still flys as well as a new one, it would be more economical to keep it. Also, as far as I know, Sportstars are still being produced. This means that it will not become an orphan and parts should remain available. Of course, it would be nice to upgrade, but OP might spend a lot of money to upgrade and still end up with exactly the same flying experience. I suppose that finding out how much he might be able to sell the airplane for and how much a new one would cost would be worthwhile. OP  might want to upgrade, but with LSA's I am not sure what he would upgrade to. Cirrus? Bush plane?

[facthunter]

You usually only get a % of what you spend going onto the value. IF you would do it anyhow for other reasons , it's a different matter.  Don't chase resale value. It's pretty fickle.  The value to you is the use you CAN get out of it.  Nev

Edited January 26, 2021 by facthunter

[RossK]

22 hours ago, BirdDog said:

RAA have confirmed that I can run On Condition as long as I continue to service the aircraft (rubber replacement etc) 

 

a) Run On Condition.  Install new Glass with Evektor approval and retain 24 Rego

b) Run On Condition.  Install new Glass without Evektor approval and move to E24 Rego.

 

Interesting questions, and response.

We recently asked the same question to RAA in regards to our 2007 Sportstar and the response was that as a Factory Certified LSA (ie 23 or 24 Reg) it must be manintained in accordance with the Factory Maintenance manual and therefore can't run on condition. To run on condition it must be moved to E23 or E24, so no hire or training.

 

I'm interested to see what you get back from Evektor on the Glass approval. We enquired about the paperwork to increase the MTOW to 600kg, and the cost was pretty high for what amounts to a couple of sheets of paper to stick in the POH, this cost didn't include RAA fees to update the MTOW either, just what Evektor wanted to supply the paperwork.

[BirdDog]

43 minutes ago, RossK said:

Interesting questions, and response.

We recently asked the same question to RAA in regards to our 2007 Sportstar and the response was that as a Factory Certified LSA (ie 23 or 24 Reg) it must be maintained in accordance with the Factory Maintenance manual and therefore can't run on condition. To run on condition it must be moved to E23 or E24, so no hire or training.

 

I'm interested to see what you get back from Evektor on the Glass approval. We enquired about the paperwork to increase the MTOW to 600kg, and the cost was pretty high for what amounts to a couple of sheets of paper to stick in the POH, this cost didn't include RAA fees to update the MTOW either, just what Evektor wanted to supply the paperwork.

 

I spoke to RAA personally and have been advised we don't need to move to E24 unless we modify the aircraft without authorisation.  We can continue to run on condition as, yes, we must follow any maintenance requirements like Rubber Replacements and SBs etc.  (all of which are in place).  I am L1 and maintaining it anyway, and so it still can't be used for hire or reward (training etc)

 

I have not heard back from Evektor yet, but having gone through the process with them when we added the RPM gauge, I am not holding my breath!

 

 

 

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

if it still flies as well as a new one

Based on that comment, and the fact that the owner is considering updating it would be reasonable to conclude that the aircraft has been maintained to a high standard and operated within parameters. Therefore , unless keeping up with the Joneses has a higher priority, then an upgrade would be a better choice economically.

 

Continental recommends that, along with the engine’s published TBO, to determine the engine’s continued airworthiness, consider whether the engine has been operated regularly or has been in storage, as gaskets, seals and synthetic and natural rubber goods deteriorate over time. Environmental corrosion can occur internally and externally on the engine. This naturally occurring process can affect continued airworthiness of the engine and engine mounted components and accessories.

 

It was asked, "When does TBO start?".  For one method of calculation, TBO begins when the engine is first fitted to the airframe. That gives you calendar TBO. With a TTIS of 350 hours and approaching calendar TBO, this engine has stood idle more than it has been running. The problem there is degradation of the seals, engine mounts and hoses. That in itself would indicate an overhauls is necessary.

16 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

BRP Rotax GmbH Rotax & Co (Rotax) also set out how this is to me measured ;-

• Calendar time; if your engine is a fairly recent one (I forget the manufacturing year) this will be 15 years. If an older engine could be 12 or less. For people that take some time between purchase & installation, there is an allowance, I think 2 years is the max before the calendar starts.
• Engine hours/Hobbs time; Again set by Rotax , who  say this is from engine start to shut down (no other measure applies eg air time or oil pressure reaching a certain level indicative of high power). This has risen progressively up to 2000 hrs for more recent engines and less for older ones.

Once again, a simple bit of wording is open to misinterpretation. According to CASA, "On-condition" maintenance means an inspection/functional check that determines an item's performance and may result in the removal of an item before it fails in service. It is not a philosophy of fit until failure or fit and forget. Maintenance tasks (inspections/checks) used to detect potential failures, and consequently to avoid a total functional failure, are called "on-condition" maintenance tasks. This is because items are left in service on the condition that they "continue" to meet a desired physical condition and performance standards.

 

Aircraft and component manufacturers can make "Hard Time" recommendations usually referred to as Time Between Overhaul (TBO), which specify how long they consider their product should remain in service. These recommendations are based on average utilisation and conditions and usually recommend that the item be fully stripped and returned to the original specifications. 

 

https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-page/awb-02-1-issue-1-condition-maintenance#:~:text="On-condition" maintenance means,failure or fit and forget.

 

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

Disclaimer: I am not an expert.

 

I...........................................but with LSA's I am not sure what he would upgrade to. Cirrus? Bush plane?

Cant help myself - ATEC Faeta Check out its proven performance & compare with what you have now.

[old man emu]

30 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Cant help myself

Matthew 6:19

"And lead us not into temptation ..."

[skippydiesel]

35 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Based on that comment, and the fact that the owner is considering updating it would be reasonable to conclude that the aircraft has been maintained to a high standard and operated within parameters. Therefore , unless keeping up with the Joneses has a higher priority, then an upgrade would be a better choice economically.

 

Continental recommends that, along with the engine’s published TBO, to determine the engine’s continued airworthiness, consider whether the engine has been operated regularly or has been in storage, as gaskets, seals and synthetic and natural rubber goods deteriorate over time. Environmental corrosion can occur internally and externally on the engine. This naturally occurring process can affect continued airworthiness of the engine and engine mounted components and accessories.

 

It was asked, "When does TBO start?".  For one method of calculation, TBO begins when the engine is first fitted to the airframe. That gives you calendar TBO. With a TTIS of 350 hours and approaching calendar TBO, this engine has stood idle more than it has been running. The problem there is degradation of the seals, engine mounts and hoses. That in itself would indicate an overhauls is necessary.

Once again, a simple bit of wording is open to misinterpretation. According to CASA, "On-condition" maintenance means an inspection/functional check that determines an item's performance and may result in the removal of an item before it fails in service. It is not a philosophy of fit until failure or fit and forget. Maintenance tasks (inspections/checks) used to detect potential failures, and consequently to avoid a total functional failure, are called "on-condition" maintenance tasks. This is because items are left in service on the condition that they "continue" to meet a desired physical condition and performance standards.

 

Aircraft and component manufacturers can make "Hard Time" recommendations usually referred to as Time Between Overhaul (TBO), which specify how long they consider their product should remain in service. These recommendations are based on average utilisation and conditions and usually recommend that the item be fully stripped and returned to the original specifications. 

 

https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-page/awb-02-1-issue-1-condition-maintenance#:~:text="On-condition" maintenance means,failure or fit and forget.

 

Bit confused here OME - your responses (to 2 comments) seem a little generalised - see my Rotax 912 specific/targeted comments erlier/above.

 

As for calendar time start ; Rotax have a specified period "of grace"  between purchase an installation. If you do not install within this period (engine still in box situation) the calendar will start to count irrespective of installation. I am sure this happens quite frequently with kit /home built aircraft, that sometimes take 10 years or more to complete - engine calendar time would have well and truly commenced befor some much as a drop of fuel & been burnt. 

 

"Time Between Overhaul (TBO), which specify how long they consider their product should remain in service."  In the Rotax context (& I believe other engines) this really only applies to certified aircraft/engines - there is no hour/age limit on non certified, with calendar time running out for most (if not all) long befor engine time and even when this is reached, many well maintained/operated engines continue on indefinitely, subject to "on condition" checks.

 

Your last comment "usually recommend that the item be fully stripped and returned to the original specifications". My (limited to one 920 hr, 22 year old, engine, fitted to a RAA 19 rego aircraft) experience of Rotax "hard time"  recommendations do not involved dismantling the component , replacement seems to be the order of the day eg Primary Mechanical Fuel: pump 5 year (forget the hrs) replacement. Again Rotax do not require this of a non certified engine - it is a recommendation. My first fuel pump (as supplied with engine) was still meeting fuel pressure/volume specifications & no leaks,  after about 15 years of service (still have on shelf as an emergency back up) there was no instruction/order to replace  - I did so from an excess of zeal. This would be quit difference for a certified engine where there would be an obligation to replace on/befor factory recommended time.

 

I follow the Rotax service/maintenance schedule to the letter (in fact with oil changes I exceed the recommendation) but think that I could apply a lot more discretion to my non certified Rotax  if I wished eg spark plug replacement at 100 hrs (or is it 200) - I replace on the engine hours listed but they are in such good condition I suspect they could easily double/triple the service time without any problem.

[BirdDog]

OME - Just in response to your comments, I would like to add....

 

Firstly - Thanks for your input, it is most valued.

 

Secondly - Yes, the aircraft sat idle for some time before I got to it. I have owned the machine for 4 years.  When I purchased it had just had it's rubber replacement done.  I ordered an inspection by a LAME and his report came back good, and so I purchased.  For the first 2 years I owed it, it was under the care of a LAME, and then I took over maintenance after completing L1 with RAA.  I still have my LAME looking over my shoulder, so to speak.

The bird is now flown very regularly and rarely sits idle at all.  She is in great condition. Always hangared and looked after with loving care!  LOL!  She is my other woman you know. 😉

[SGM]

I did look into whether 912's could be maintained per airswitched hours - the conclusion I arrived at, unfortunately, matches this view... https://foxbatpilot.com/2017/04/12/rotax-engines-4-scheduled-maintenance-update/ . Thanks to Peter Harlow who also corresponded with me via email. Key quote below.

 

So – make no mistake, if you have a 912-series Rotax engined aircraft, scheduled maintenance must be carried out based on engine running hours, NOT flight times!

 

On the topic of TBO, the advice was, from two sources, you must follow manufacturers rules to stay as LSA (either CASA or RAAus).. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2016/april/pilot/pe_savvy Key quote below.

Here’s another oddity. Rotax also builds a certified 912S version for use in Normal-category airplanes such as the Liberty XL. When your certificated Rotax 912S reaches its 2,000-hour TBO, you can keep flying as long as the engine remains in airworthy condition, because TBOs are not compulsory for noncommercial operators of certificated aircraft. However, if you own a Van’s RV–12 SLSA powered by a Rotax 912ULS, you are required by regulation to overhaul it at the 2,000-hour mark—because that’s what Rotax says to do
 

Note: RAAus conversion from LSA to ELSA at TBO does however remain an option.

Edited January 27, 2021 by SGM

[skippydiesel]

SGM ; Soooo "Van’s RV–12 SLSA powered by a Rotax 912ULS, you are required by regulation to overhaul it at the 2,000-hour mark—because that’s what Rotax says to do" is a factory built aircraft in Australia ?????????