SOAR receivers auction

[petercoota]

The first batch are being sold by 'Expressions of Interest'. Any that don't receive an offer that the Receiver likes, will then be added to the second batch offered for sale. 

I understand that the second batch will be an on line auction.

 

https://www.pickles.com.au/trucks/tenders/-/content/LIVE-026582/trucks

[skippydiesel]

Always liked the P2006T - lovely lines. I wonder if there is a reserve ???

[petercoota]

I spoke to them his afternoon. It sounded like 'make your best offer'. If the offer is not as high as their undisclosed reserve, they'll send it to auction in the second batch.

 

that's my interpretation, not what they said.

[onetrack]

Pickles technique is all about maximising the return to them and the vendor. They set a figure they believe the item is worth (often way out, because their valuers are not that expert), and they call for EOI's.

When they don't get offers anywhere near what they think the item is worth, it goes to auction. Their auctions are generally short and sharp - 2 to 5 days in length.

 

You must be alert to when the item you're interested in goes up for bidding. The bidding runs in 10 minute periods when it comes to the initial "auction closing time". 

That means, if the auction is listed as closing at 6:00PM on a Tuesday, you might keep your light under a bushel, and place a bid at 5:59:15, to try and gazump other bidders. This is an effective bidding technique.

 

Your bid extends the auction closing time to 6:09:15 (10 mins after you placed your bid). The 10 mins extension is designed to ensure anyone who is interested in placing a bid is not left out of the bidding, because his/her phone battery goes flat, or his/her internet connection drops out, or the power goes off. It gives them a chance to still be in the bidding.

 

However, Joe Bloggs is waiting in the wings, and he places a bid at 6:08:45, just as you think you've won. Joes bid extends the auction closing time until 6:18:45.

You can place another bid, say, a minute after Joe placed his, and this then extends the auction for another 10 mins. This goes on until all the bidders drop out, and the bidding ceases for longer than 10 mins.

I've seen auctions extend for an hour, or an hour and a half sometimes, past the initial closing time, as bidders fight it out to the death, for the item they really want.

 

Then comes the snarky bit with Pickles. They will put up a notice that the auction has ended, and the bidding is being assessed. This simply means they're looking at the highest bid to see if it's acceptable.

With high value items, it's not unusual for an item not to be sold on the first round. If the item is sold, and you lost out, Pickles will simply put up a notice within about 5 mins of the end of bidding, that the item "has been sold to another bidder".

 

If you won, you'll see "You have won this item", and it will appear on your "My Pickles" section of your "dashboard". If Pickles decide the bidding is not high enough, you will simply see a message saying "this item is no longer available".

In other words, it's been passed in, and it will be put up for auction again within a couple of weeks, to try and draw out more buyer interest and higher bids.

 

Once in a while, after you have seen an item passed in, you will get an email or a call from Pickles, if you were the highest bidder, saying "the item has been referred".

In this case, Pickles will be going back to the vendor, and basically saying, "We thought we'd get $50,000, but the highest bid was only $35,000. Are you prepared to sell at that figure?"

 

Sometimes, the seller will say yes, and Pickles will come back to you, and say your highest bid has been accepted. In which case, you will promptly have the funds extracted from your CC or bank account, and a sale invoice will be issued.

Sometimes when they call you, they ask if you want to increase your highest bid, saying the vendor was expecting a lot more.

 

I've had this happen numerous times, and I usually play hardball, and say my high bid is my best offer - whereby Pickles say they will discuss it with the vendor.

If the vendor agrees to sell at your highest bid figure, Pickles will come back with an email saying your referred bid has been accepted. If the vendor refuses to sell at your highest bid, Pickles will let you know your bid was not accepted.

 

Then comes another auction, and usually, a repeat of the above process. Sometimes they will put an item through 3 auctions, trying to extract maximum dollar for it.

Eventually, the item will sell, even if it is at quite a bit lower figure than Pickles initially estimated sale value.

 

There is also another snarky part, as regards Pickles setup. If you do not bid on an item, you cannot find out what the highest bid was, after the auction ended - unless you watched it right to the end, and wrote the figure down.

Pickles will not reveal bidding figures after auctions have ended - unlike GraysOnline do. At a Pickles auction end, all the bidding figures disappear, if you're only watching. I believe this is somewhat devious on Pickles part - but that's what they do.

 

The secret is, if you want a record of the items sale price - or the highest bid amount, if it was passed in, you put in a bid of a few dollars as soon as the auction opens, and you have the entire bidding record right through to closing time, in your "My Pickles" section of your dashboard.

 

Most times, Pickles auctions will start at a low figure, usually $1 or $2, and this is designed to find out how many bidders are interested in the item.

 

GraysOnline, on the other hand, will sometimes put an item up at a starting figure of what they think its worth, just to see if someone grabs it at that figure.

But usually, with that technique, no-one bids at their high start figure, and the item will run its allotted time, then be put up again for auction a short while later, at a low initial start price.

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by onetrack

[jackc]

Over years the sleaze factor has gone to new heights.  Hence I have not bothered going to auctions for a very long time.

Sometimes you see the worst in human beings.......

[petercoota]

Thanks ONETRACK, for the explanation. helps a lot to know what's really going on.....

[FlyBoy1960]

His description it is extremely accurate and exactly how they work. In my opinion an option is meant to have a start and finish but pickles have a moving end time and a lot of people know this and can manipulate the auction. sometimes the sellers even bid to get the price up

[old man emu]

Being an auctioneering business is not a bad little earner.

The seller pays the auctioneer to sell something. The buyer pays the auctioneer for selling something.

 

I had a look at one General Auctioneer's fees in Sydney. The Seller pays the auctioneer 20.9% of the hammer price (plus GST). The Buyer pays the Auctioneer 20.9% of the hammer price. That means that if an object sold for $100, the Auctioneer would get $41.80. The Seller gets $79.10 and the Buyer pays $120.90.

 

12.5 Any monies recovered by and paid to the Company by the Buyer shall be applied in the following order (in each case together with Interest) to the payment of:

(a) any legal or other costs incurred by the Company;

(b) any transport or storage costs;

(C) the Expenses, Lotting Fee and Indemnity Fee;

(d) the Premium;

(e) the Seller’s Commission; and

(f) any balance remaining shall be paid by the Company to the Seller.

 

Is it any wonder that eBay and Gumtree are so popular?

[petercoota]

I've seen the term 'buyers premium', didn't realise the size of it. So my bargain Foxbat from Auction is maybe not such a good deal!

 

Thanks to everybody for the inside info....buyer beware indeed.

[onetrack]

I agree with OME's opinion of the buyers premium rort. It's become excessive in recent years, and you can see the result in the auction houses wealth.

 

Grays have been buying up every auction house that presents as competition, and their yards are usually located and equipped with expense no object.

[Steve L]

Couldn’t have put that better myself onetrack.

I often purchased by auction transport equipment usually through Manhiems but since Pickles got on the scene (and it appears they have scored many Manhiems contracts) I don’t even bother now. When I watch my PC ( yes I’m old school and my mobile doesn’t connect to the internet haha ) and win an item which sometimes goes an hour or more beyond the end time, shut down my computer, then get a follow up call the next day from pickles stating I haven’t made the sellers minimum and am I prepared to increase my offer, that’s NOT an auction in any sense, might even be false advertising, I wonder if they even contact the vendor. 
Since Pickles ruthless antics I don’t purchase by auctions anymore, I guess other auction houses have got on the bandwagon.

[old man emu]

Here's a link to Pickles Terms and Conditions.

https://www.pickles.com.au/about/terms-and-conditions/au/nsw

[Panorama]

Hi All

 

Out of interest I made an enquiry with pickles regarding price guide:

Tecnam P2008 120-140k

Bristel                90- 130k

Foxbat                60-70k

Vixen                  80k

 

56 available in total, sales inclusive of gst plus 8.25% buyers premium. Aircraft available for immediate purchase if the receiver is satisfied with a particular offer.

He claims that there is quite alot of international interest.

 

            

[jackc]

Wonder IF you are entitled to make a physical inspection before auction, on item of interest?

Pull a cowl off an aircraft?  

[old man emu]

Hard to say exactly, but this might cover some part of pre-inspection:

 

19. Auction of Used Plant and Equipment

(c)    In so far as it is readily available, information prepared by the designer or manufacturer of the Plant and any records kept by previous owners of the Plant that were required to be kept under the OH&S Legislation ("the information and/or records") is made available for inspection to prospective purchasers and will be provided to the Purchaser.

 

Although this relates to the application of OH&S law, we know that maintenance records are kept for aircraft, so they should be available.

 

18. Auction of Used Motor Vehicles and other goods

(a)    The Purchaser acknowledges that:

(iv)    it must satisfy itself as to the condition, description and state of repair of the Lot prior to the Auction Sale;

[spacesailor]

" 

Out of interest I made an enquiry with pickles regarding price guide:

Tecnam P2008 120-140k

Bristel                90- 130k

Foxbat                60-70k

Vixen                  80k  "

Usual second hand price, without their interest or GST.

spacesailor

 

[onetrack]

Jack, if you take a look at the link to the Pickles auction put up by Petercoota, you will see the following inspection information;

 

Inspection: Moorabbin: Monday, 1 March 2021 from 10:00am until 4:00pm
Bankstown: Friday, 26 February 2021 from 10:00am until 4:00pm

 

On inspection days, you are allowed to wander through all the items listed for auction and inspect them without starting them or unscrewing panels. If a panel is easily removable and replaceable with hand-operated clips or fasteners, you would more than likely be allowed to remove those panels for inspection - provided they were replaced correctly and securely.

 

However, a call to the Pickles representative who is in charge of that particular auction inspection will soon clarify what is allowed in the inspection process.

Naturally, starting engines would not be allowed, and I doubt whether access to the cockpit (sitting in it) would be allowed, either.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Wow.. what a rort...

 

The auction style is very similar to a now defunct penny auction site, madbids.com (or madbid.com)... They would run auctions where you had to pay per bid.. Your bid would increment by a penny - you couldn't bid a price... The clock would cound down from I think a minute and if there was no new bid by the time the clock count down, the current bid won, but as soon as a bid was placed... the clock would reset.. Sounds like Pickles used to use these guys for inspiration.. Of course, I would watch the clock and with a second to go, a new penny bid was submitted.. Now, call me cynical, but somehow, I think some of those bids many have been automated stooge bids... From how OT described the auction process at Pickles, I would not be surprised if some of the bids they receive are......

 

I may be drawing too long a bow.. but those fees are enormous, given I bet they aren't paying storage fees on the aircraft...

 

But, it is simple.. Work out the max total you are willing to pay, workout the max you are to bid by subtracting the costs from the amount you are willing to pay, and, using OT's technique, but up to you max bid (with any luck, you will win). If someone outbids you, assuming your max price to pay was realistic, let them be the suckers and look for your next steed on the open market...

 

Simples.

 

If everyone did that, and was reasonable about their valuation (i.e. not OTT), then the higest bid would always be lower than value and vendors would eventually realise they are getting shafted and go somewhere else...

 

Hmm.. I may have to read the pickles Ts&C's.. I feel a dusruptiuve business coming on...

 

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Jerry_Atrick

[mnewbery]

14 hours ago, Panorama said:

He claims that there is quite alot of international interest.

Well you would wouldn't you

[skippydiesel]

9 hours ago, spacesailor said:

" 

Out of interest I made an enquiry with pickles regarding price guide:

Tecnam P2008 120-140k

Bristel                90- 130k

Foxbat                60-70k

Vixen                  80k  "

Usual second hand price, without their interest or GST.

spacesailor

 

"In their dreams" - just check out the current/recent offerings in the variose on line market places

[SplitS]

Pickles is just trying to get the very best price for their clients which is not the buyer. If you had loaned Soar Aviation money you would be pushing to use the most aggressive auction house to sell the assets. Pickles is open about how they are going to run the sale if you don't want to play the game don't.

The amount of sooking because people cannot buy a cheap aircraft for cents on the dollar is a sign the receivers are doing their job.

[jackc]

1 minute ago, SplitS said:

Pickles is just trying to get the very best price for their clients which is not the buyer. If you had loaned Soar Aviation money you would be pushing to use the most aggressive auction house to sell the assets. Pickles is open about how they are going to run the sale if you don't want to play the game don't.

The amount of sooking because people cannot buy a cheap aircraft for cents on the dollar is a sign the receivers are doing their job.

They probably should be cheap......after a possible Flying School flogging......?

[Panorama]

I struggle to see them realising those prices accross 56 aircraft they are creating a buyers market by the shear volume available in a liquidation sale. Perhaps if they had say 12 aircraft in total they would have more likleyhood.

 

In saying that looking at the age, hours and new purchase price of the three types the tecnam estimate seems the better value 2018 <700 hours.

 

Pickles also said that the Bankstown aircraft have being hangared, Moorabbin all out side.

[old man emu]

The question to be answered is, "Has a Reserve price been set for each aircraft?" I dare say that the Receiver has set a reserve for each aircraft based on the open market price that could be found in Trader publications. Obviously the Receiver is looking to turn all assets into as much cash as possible. Those assets would even include the tea urn in the meal room. Pickles it trying to squeeze as much money out of the purchaser as possible for Pickle's profit line. I watch an auction-based show on TV and regularly the price achieved at auction falls below, or at, the price the object was purchased for. In that programme, it is only when the original seller has no idea of the value of the object does the auction room price skyrocket. In the case of these aircraft, the seller knows full well what each one is worth.

[Panorama]

Receivers don't nessasarily accept the best price on an asset more the most convenient offer.

 

I can recall when great southern plantations managed investment scheme collapsed. Prime grazing land on king island went for peanuts to a superannuation fund even though there were significantly higher prices offered for the various holdings by multiple entities.

 

So if a training organization came in and offered to buy 12 tecnams at 90k each in the one transaction versus an individual like us offering 120k for one aircraft I wouldn't be suprised if they snapped up the training organizations offer first.