Foxbat oops at Casino this morning 26/3/21

[Old Koreelah]

5 hours ago, facthunter said:

...The taste of the grape is in the wine and you won't make good wine from poor quality or contaminated grapes...

I worked on the 1975 harvest which suffered a severe beetle infestation which spraying couldn’t fix.

I delivered tonnes of grapes heavy with them directly into the crusher. That vintage won several awards.   

[Thruster88]

Grapes have no appeal. Barley,  hops, yeast and water produces an amazing product with much diversity.  

[facthunter]

Never really liked beer. Drank it because it was almost mandatory. if you were an ostrayan bloke.   Nev

[kgwilson]

I am constantly amazed at how a thread about an aircraft incident can evolve into something entirely different with this one after half a page changing from beer, cigarettes and wine and now back to beer part way in to page 3 in just 4 days. Meanwhile important things like ASAs modified lowering of Class E airspace is all but being ignored

[facthunter]

If you talk about class E for long enough you will need more than One beer.  That's also something you have a say in. Nev

[kgwilson]

Like they say, one beer isn't enough, 2 beers is enough and 3 beers isn't enough. I am having my say before any beers and even more vocally after more than the second number that is not enough.

[Thruster88]

On my 3rd. There is only so much one can say about a broken nose wheel.

[kgwilson]

Just finished my second so am about to catch up.

[Jim McDowall]

Just pulled the cork and don't plan to put it back in.

[Phil Perry]

On 30/03/2021 at 4:30 AM, spacesailor said:

Yes l agree,

BUT

At My wake the taste won,t matter to me ,. LoL

NOW

At my funeral! .

spacesailor

No matter HOW bloody GOOD it is,. . . . It WON'T wake you.

[pmccarthy]

Tell that to Finnegan.

[spacesailor]

There was an old man called micheal Finnigan,

spacesailor

[RossK]

He grew whiskers on his.........

[SilverWing]

I don't know what the circumstances of this accident are, so I am not commenting on it. However, I am completely unaware of 'much history' of this type of accident with A32 Vixxens. Like the Foxbat they are a very easy aircraft to fly and land. If the all-flying elevator is 'tight and snatchy' there is something wrong with the maintenance - cables too tight or too loose. The main problem with landing any aircraft is idiots who know better than the factory designer - at maximum weight the A32 should be over the threshold no faster than 49 knots, maybe 45 with one person on board. So many ignorant pilots think that adding a few knots 'for safety margin' - in one case I am aware of an instructor advising students to keep the Vixxen over 60 knots at landing - cause far more landing problems for themselves than the aircraft itself. Sadly, these people get many good aircraft a bad reputation though their arrogant 'I know best' attitudes.

[CT9000]

I have been reading a few old "crash comics" and one stand out is that fat more aircraft are damaged by over the fence speeds high than low. I fly a Flight Design CT that has an approach speed in the book of about 50kt. depending on weight, with a stall in the high 30's. If you come over the fence at over 60 it will refuse to land and sits in ground effect till you eventually slow down or hit the fence at the far end. what can therefore happen is that the pilot tries to force a landing by using forward stick and destroys the nose gear. I am not saying that this happened in this case but it looks like it to me. Another possibility is that the pilot was used to flying heavier stuff and flared too high ran out of airspeed then fell the rest of the way to the ground - low inertia aircraft do that to you.

[kgwilson]

You could come over the fence at 80 knots and still have a lot of space to slow and land at Casino especially on 28 which is uphill. My approach is 60-65 & slow to 50-55 over the fence. With my low wings less than a metre off the ground at the root I only have to have a tiny bit of throttle on and I will float in ground effect forever. Ground effect affects high wings far less.

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, kgwilson said:

Ground effect affects high wings far less

There's not a lot of difference in distance between the bottom of a Jabiru wing and the bottom of a Moran Sierra wing. However, it is not how close your bum is to the the ground that brings you into ground effect.

 

 When an aircraft flies at or below approximately half the length of the aircraft's wingspan above the ground or water there occurs an often-noticeable ground effect. Ground effect is the reduced aerodynamic drag that an aircraft's wings generate when they are close to a fixed surface The result is lower induced drag on the aircraft. This is caused primarily by the ground or water obstructing the creation of wingtip vortices and interrupting downwash behind the wing. 

 

A wing deflects the oncoming airmass (relative wind) downward. The deflected or "turned" flow of air creates a resultant force on the wing in the opposite direction (Newton's 3rd law). The resultant force is identified as lift. Flying close to a surface increases air pressure on the lower wing surface, and thereby improves the aircraft lift ratio because the deflection of the air mass increases the density of the air local to the wind - like a hovercraft. If the angle of attack and airspeed remain constant, an increase in the lift coefficient ensues, which accounts for the "floating" effect. Ground effect also alters thrust versus velocity, where reduced induced drag requires less thrust in order to maintain the same velocity.

[RFguy]

Great description OME. 

and that is why Jab's tend to float, with the high aspect wing the spiraling tip airflow doesnt get a chance to get on top of the wing , (time) ,  the wing is not deep , so the first spiral of air is off the back of the wing...  so the increase in induced drag is not abrupt.. So it just keeps on flying, - drag doesnt increase rapidly....and  as it slows down, the lift just slowly reduces without drag increasing much.

 

For low aspect wings, like an RV, a deep chord, the induced drag increases rather quickly with reducing airspeed,  this is because the spiralling airflow gets on top of the wing and trashes the low pressure region and airflow....and it should want to land when the airspeed falls to some critical level.   

These principals are wings-101 and easy to see in many online  fluid dynamics simulations.

I would think the deep chord wing would be easier to get on the ground for STOL ops, but I have no practical experience with STOL ops.

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

16 hours ago, kgwilson said:

. Ground effect affects high wings far less.

 

15 hours ago, old man emu said:

There's not a lot of difference in distance between the bottom of a Jabiru wing and the bottom of a Moran Sierra wing.

 

Ground effect affects high wing aircraft less than low wing aircraft. It is wrong to imply that ground effect affects a Jabiru and a Moran Sierra the same. As the FAA book says, 

 

"When the wing is at a height equal to its span, the reduction in induced drag is only 1.4 percent. However, when the wing is at a height equal to one-fourth its span, the reduction in induced drag is 23.5 percent and, when the wing is at a height equal to one-tenth its span, the reduction in induced drag is 47.6 percent. Thus, a large reduction in induced drag takes place only when the wing is very close to the ground."

 

edited...

No need for personal attacks....mod

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

18 minutes ago, RFguy said:

Great description OME.

The correct bits, the last two paragraphs, come from Wikipedia. 

[Roundsounds]

I hear there was another Foxbat Oops at Luskintyre this week. 

[kgwilson]

I can walk under a Jabitu wing but I'd have to be a real good limbo exponent to get under mine. My wingspan is 25.9 feet, a Jabiru 170/230 is 31.3 feet. I have flown all 3 & ground effect in my Sierra is far more pronounced than the 2 Jabirus.

[facthunter]

Yes . Proximity to the ground is the main ingredient. Speed might be a factor too, but not very relevant  here. Nev

Edited April 16, 2021 by facthunter

[old man emu]

10 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

The correct bits, the last two paragraphs, come from Wikipedia. 

Next time I'll post references to the sources.

[Mike Gearon]

On 28/03/2021 at 5:07 PM, facthunter said:

I've forgotten how long ago I stopped smoking.. That ones a no brainer. GOOD wine is so cheap it's hard to stop, but getting there.  Nev

Cheap wine is completely the opposite. It takes a while to get used to and consequently hard to start. It tastes okay after the third day and I try to remember not to buy that brand of chateau cardboard again. Bottles, yes, just not drinking enough to justify.

 

Nev, I’m sure lots of posters know your history. I don’t. How come you have so many facts. They look believable as well which I find impressive.