RAAus and our new Tech and Ops manuals - how to drive a horse and cart through them

[Blueadventures]

14 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Someone has a LOT of study to do. A Coroner decides the cause of death. In the case of an amateur built aircraft crash the Police investigate the crash, call in RAA to assist when there are technical matter and present a brief to the Coroner. Independent of this, the family of the deceased or the injured victim can sue whoever breached their  duty of car, starting with you, the pilot if you were negligent even if it was accidental. This will be heard in.a Civil Court. If the Court finds you , or anyone associated with the flight whether building the aircraft, teaching you, owning the airstrip etc. Self Administration is self administration and RA aircraft fly under exemption from certain regulations on condition that it self regulates.

To perhaps add to Turbo’s information, I believe that the coroners findings has over recent years have lead to enhancements in the way we are taught to fly, how bfr’s content is styled and enhanced the maintenance and qualifications / training; all in a positive way.  The coroner will present his findings and recommendations in a list and in our case RAA will take these on board and require us member pilots and maintainers to achieve certain extra things in an effort to reduce the number of deaths that can be assessed as preventable to some extent.  

[jackc]

Sadly, it will all come back to money and who is prepared to pay.

I know how to fix a lot of things, buts a waste of time suggesting any ideas that may cost money.......because,  IF it’s too expensive it’s cheaper to simply apply more restrictions than just suck up the cost and fix it properly.

You will see people give up, and go do their own thing.......which may end up illegal.   I am near EOL and fast running out of F....s to give when getting drowned in useless regulatory b/s.

Witness our current ASA airspace debacle, as a start.  The b/s about RAA getting 760kg MTOW etc.......just FIX it all properly and let people get on with their lives.......

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, jackc said:

Sadly, it will all come back to money and who is prepared to pay.

I know how to fix a lot of things, buts a waste of time suggesting any ideas that may cost money.......because,  IF it’s too expensive it’s cheaper to simply apply more restrictions than just suck up the cost and fix it properly.

You will see people give up, and go do their own thing.......which may end up illegal.   I am near EOL and fast running out of F....s to give when getting drowned in useless regulatory b/s.

Witness our current ASA airspace debacle, as a start.  The b/s about RAA getting 760kg MTOW etc.......just FIX it all properly and let people get on with their lives.......

Those two subjects are long term discussion items; they weren't under discusssion in the AUF days; they aren't part of the current scene; they are just discussions. In both cases there are issues for GA, so it's quite possible that neither wil even happen, so there's no point in getting all upset about things which are not within the approvals and control of Recreational Aviation Australia. There are plenty of freedoms there without crossing over into no man's land.

[Thruster88]

2 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Those two subjects are long term discussion items; they weren't under discusssion in the AUF days; they aren't part of the current scene; they are just discussions. In both cases there are issues for GA, so it's quite possible that neither wil even happen, so there's no point in getting all upset about things which are not within the approvals and control of Recreational Aviation Australia. There are plenty of freedoms there without crossing over into no man's land.

Totally agree,  I am currently flying a traditional ultralight under RAAus,  a high performance experimental amateur built and a good old certified aircraft with casa. Living the dream.

[FlyBoy1960]

All of this gets significantly worse, I was at the airfield yesterday talking to a couple of importers of aircraft, and because of Bristell falsifying documents and some of their aircraft being 60 kg more than what they claimed, all new aircraft regardless, of being factory built or amateur built, now require a weight and balance by a CASA appointed weight and balance control officer !

 

The factory weight and balance supplied by manufacturers is no longer acceptable one you do yourself on the new plane you just finished is no longer acceptable.. A weight and balance done on certified scales by your Lame, or anyone else from the RA-Aus is not acceptable.

 

Cost is about $700 plus travel. Apparently there are not many CASA appointed weight and balance control officers in Australia.

 

It's completely out of control !   

 

Rather than punish the industry, punish the importer that caused the problems to start with.  What do you have to say Mr Anderson ?   Not so popular up our way !

[jackc]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

Those two subjects are long term discussion items; they weren't under discusssion in the AUF days; they aren't part of the current scene; they are just discussions. In both cases there are issues for GA, so it's quite possible that neither wil even happen, so there's no point in getting all upset about things which are not within the approvals and control of Recreational Aviation Australia. There are plenty of freedoms there without crossing over into no man's land.

 Well the regulator should take them off the table and forget it all 😞

I have never seen so much b/s in my life until I came to aviation. You can’t make any plans IF the regulators are going able to not make a decision either way and stick to it.......they deserve to be the flat squirrels!! 

RAA, could have done a whole lot better furthering our aviation progress since the good old days of AUF.......I am not seeing the direction we should be going in.....

[jackc]

52 minutes ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

All of this gets significantly worse, I was at the airfield yesterday talking to a couple of importers of aircraft, and because of Bristell falsifying documents and some of their aircraft being 60 kg more than what they claimed, all new aircraft regardless, of being factory built or amateur built, now require a weight and balance by a CASA appointed weight and balance control officer !

 

The factory weight and balance supplied by manufacturers is no longer acceptable one you do yourself on the new plane you just finished is no longer acceptable.. A weight and balance done on certified scales by your Lame, or anyone else from the RA-Aus is not acceptable.

 

Cost is about $700 plus travel. Apparently there are not many CASA appointed weight and balance control officers in Australia.

 

It's completely out of control !   

 

Rather than punish the industry, punish the importer that caused the problems to start with.  What do you have to say Mr Anderson ?   Not so popular up our way !

The caravan industry suffers the same problems because of piss poor regulation,

it’s better to hammer the caravaners on the side of the road than fix an industry problem.

So guess what.......we all sit here and get turned into flat squirrels because regulators can’t get their sh1t together?

Maybe we all need to get off our couches and swamp them with submissions or are too many of us Cupcakes to have the guts and do something? 

[Thruster88]

13 minutes ago, jackc said:

The caravan industry suffers the same problems because of piss poor regulation,

it’s better to hammer the caravaners on the side of the road than fix an industry problem.

So guess what.......we all sit here and get turned into flat squirrels because regulators can’t get their sh1t together?

Maybe we all need to get off our couches and swamp them with submissions or are too many of us Cupcakes to have the guts and do something? 

The caravan one is simple, don't overload your caravan or exceed the GCM of the tow vehicle. Aircraft, yes I would like to see higher MTOW aircraft flown on the same medical standard as current RAAus.  

[jackc]

2 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

The caravan one is simple, don't overload your caravan or exceed the GCM of the tow vehicle. Aircraft, yes I would like to see higher MTOW aircraft flown on the same medical standard as current RAAus.  

Manufacturers declare false tare weights,  Van salesmen don’t care IF van weight exceeds customer towing capacity. Get the customers money and get rid of them.

Seen it often.......

[turboplanner]

45 minutes ago, jackc said:

Manufacturers declare false tare weights,  Van salesmen don’t care IF van weight exceeds customer towing capacity. Get the customers money and get rid of them.

Seen it often.......

I work in the transport industry and spend a lot of time on dynamic stability.

The person registering a Van has the obligation to put it on a weighbridge and record the Tare Mass for the Registration.

The Vehicle Manufacturer, during the process of building or importing the vehicle has the responsibility to Rate The Gross Vehicle Mass, Tare Mass (usually specified dry) Front Axle/suspension/tyre  Rating, Rear Axle/susoension/tyre Rating, wheelbase dimension, load bearing dimensions. The Tow Bar Manfacturer/Installer specifies a two bar rating for vertical and horizontal loads.

To make it easier for Light Commercial operators, Manufacturers usually supply an overall towing capacity with trailer axles braked and unbraked. Those limits usually require the towing vehicle to have driver only and no payload in the cargo area (because total mass matters for things like clutches and rear suspensions.) That allows a Tradoe to carry more building materials on the trailer because he is not loading the towing vehicle.

The owner/operator has the obligation to calculate or have someone calculate the allowable Van Load split between axle(s) and towing ball, and allowable load in people, dogs and cargo, by axle and total in the towing vehicle.

The difference between a combination set up correctly and one that's not is like night and day.

The only time these responsibilities become critical (other than ensuring the safety of the vehicle and occupants is after an accident.

[jackc]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

I work in the transport industry and spend a lot of time on dynamic stability.

The person registering a Van has the obligation to put it on a weighbridge and record the Tare Mass for the Registration.

The Vehicle Manufacturer, during the process of building or importing the vehicle has the responsibility to Rate The Gross Vehicle Mass, Tare Mass (usually specified dry) Front Axle/suspension/tyre  Rating, Rear Axle/susoension/tyre Rating, wheelbase dimension, load bearing dimensions. The Tow Bar Manfacturer/Installer specifies a two bar rating for vertical and horizontal loads.

To make it easier for Light Commercial operators, Manufacturers usually supply an overall towing capacity with trailer axles braked and unbraked. Those limits usually require the towing vehicle to have driver only and no payload in the cargo area (because total mass matters for things like clutches and rear suspensions.) That allows a Tradoe to carry more building materials on the trailer because he is not loading the towing vehicle.

The owner/operator has the obligation to calculate or have someone calculate the allowable Van Load split between axle(s) and towing ball, and allowable load in people, dogs and cargo, by axle and total in the towing vehicle.

The difference between a combination set up correctly and one that's not is like night and day.

The only time these responsibilities become critical (other than ensuring the safety of the vehicle and occupants is after an accident.

Sorry, but the wheels fell off in your second sentence, the owner has no obligation to weigh their van, in Queensland unless the rules changed very recently.

In fact to use a truck weighbridge capable of weighing 40 tonnes or so is not accurate weighing 1.5 tonnes, as I have proven.

No caravan manufacturer I know of provides a certified weighbridge certificate declaring tare weight of van at time of sale.

Blame the regulators for poor administration of caravan and trailer weights,  they  just fine you for a breach on the side of the road.

The regulators could fix it but are too lazy......like other regulators I know 😞

 

[spacesailor]

I,m in complete agreement with jackc !.

The ford truck ( 1 tonner ) was fitted with a ' winnibago ' camper back.

ALL LEGAL !, untill you put you food and drinks in the cupboards AND the wife in the passenger seat.

The it is over the weight limit for driving on a standard car licence.

The co pany didn,t give a ssheet. How many times you got fined..

Untill someone took it to the courts.

Holden imported the ' Jackaroo 4x4.

 Compliance plated as a 5 seater, even tho it has 7 seats.

Only South Australia fined each one they stopped. 

BY

Which tokens all Jackaroo,s should be retested with TWO seats !, then with THREE seats !, then another one untill you have SIX compliance plates. 

 JUST to please the Beauraucrates.  They are still ilegal in SA, & you will cop a fine.

Crazy.

spacesailor

 

 

[onetrack]

The vehicle/caravan/trailer weight/mass information requirement is poorly administered in most States, and can be "got around", as with all regulations.

 

1. A manufacturer can supply tare/GVM/GCM for a new vehicle/caravan/trailer, and it is accepted at face value by State vehicle registration agencies.

Most caravan owners are horrified to find their caravan rarely weighs what the manufacturer specified. The manufacturers most often glibly state that additional "options" were ordered, that changed the specified tare weight. It's a sales "lurk" of the highest order.

 

So the owner is only responsible for meeting that recorded tare/GVM/GCM, when on the road.

 

2. If the vehicle/caravan/trailer has been previously registered, and you go to re-register it, the authorities ignore any weighbridge ticket, and re-register the vehicle/caravan/trailer with the original declared tare.

I've had this happen to me, I went to the trouble of weighing an unregistered truck I'd bought - which showed it weighed several hundred kg more than the number painted on the fuel tank - but when I re-registered it, I was told the weighbridge docket was unnecessary, and the weight was recorded on the new rego, as on the original rego.

 

From the W.A. Dept of Transport webpage ....

 

What to do and what to bring with you on the day of the inspection

1. Please arrive 15 minutes before the due time to avoid delay.
2. Please bring along all necessary paperwork, such as vehicle licence papers and proof of ownership.
3. Proof of identity and residency in WA.
4. Weighbridge certificate if the tare/mass weight of the vehicle cannot be established from the manufacturer's specifications, previous licence documents or licensing records.
5. You are required to give 24 hours (business/working days only) notice of a cancellation or to re-schedule an appointment.
6. If a vehicle fails an inspection, the faults identified must be fixed before the vehicle can be presented for re-inspection.
7. You can book a vehicle re-inspection by calling your preferred Authorised Inspection Station. A re-inspection fee is applicable.
8. When calling, please ensure you advise that you are booking a re-inspection and provide the inspection reference number from your initial inspection receipt as this is required to make the re-inspection booking.

 

IMO, nothing should officially registered until a certified weighbridge docket is produced. There is so much that hangs on that mass being correct.

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by onetrack

[spacesailor]

In NSW it seems ' cleanliness ' is all thet want !, in the fact if the inspector gets his hands dirty, you have Faild.

An aquentenance failed to get his exarmy truck registered because of dirt ontop of the fuel tank !.

( UNIMOG)

spacesailor

[turboplanner]

55 minutes ago, jackc said:

Sorry, but the wheels fell off in your second sentence, the owner has no obligation to weigh their van, in Queensland unless the rules changed very recently.

In fact to use a truck weighbridge capable of weighing 40 tonnes or so is not accurate weighing 1.5 tonnes, as I have proven.

No caravan manufacturer I know of provides a certified weighbridge certificate declaring tare weight of van at time of sale.

Blame the regulators for poor administration of caravan and trailer weights,  they  just fine you for a breach on the side of the road.

The regulators could fix it but are too lazy......like other regulators I know 😞

 

 

1 hour ago, jackc said:

Sorry, but the wheels fell off in your second sentence, the owner has no obligation to weigh their van, in Queensland unless the rules changed very recently.

In fact to use a truck weighbridge capable of weighing 40 tonnes or so is not accurate weighing 1.5 tonnes, as I have proven.

No caravan manufacturer I know of provides a certified weighbridge certificate declaring tare weight of van at time of sale.

Blame the regulators for poor administration of caravan and trailer weights,  they  just fine you for a breach on the side of the road.

The regulators could fix it but are too lazy......like other regulators I know 😞

 

I said "the person registering the van" has the obligation to put it on a weighbridge. If the dealer is registering it he will usually go and put it on a weighbridge. If you opt to register it yourself, you take it to the weighbridge.

 

If you check the accuracu required to be a Licenced Weighbridge operator, you'll find it is very accurate from zero to full mass. If it isn't the weighbridge can be deregistered. I work to very accurate mass with Prime Movers, especially fuel tanker Prime Movers.

 

No caravan manufacture needs to declare mass. Mass can be added if the customer fits a rear bumper, extra tanks, extra bunks, lockers, heavier brakes, spare wheel, gas bottles, bike racks, and that might be the Tare Mass at time of Registration.

 

The owner may then add bedding, furniture, water, Kitchen utensils and food, beverages, clothing, accessories etc to take it up to GVM.

 

The Owner may then load the towing vehicle with a roof mounted boat, Motor, Tools, winch, cable chainsaw etc

 

The owner then has the obligation to check that none of the Ratings are exceeded.

 

 

 

 

[jackc]

i have registered 2 caravans personally in Qld,  no weighbridge certificate required Tare weight was taken directly from the manufacturers ID plate. Fill in rego application, cite drivers licence.....

Pay money, get number plate with 24 hours to a fix it to the van, job done.

Gas Inspection required where gas supply is plumbed into van.

 

[jackc]

The sad part of all this is that regulators do not discharge the duties that they should.  Most regulators have holes in the systems, just look at NHVR with its ongoing uncoordinated mess.

Enforcing regulations costs money, so they wait until there is an accident and then investigate and then make scapegoats of whoever they can......it’s enforcement by imposing massive fines and then publish the fact they made an example of the guilty?  They scare the public into compliance with this publicity.

The day they privatised roadworthy inspections meant the system became corrupted........drive sh1tbox in for inspection, leave 2 boxes of grog on the back seat and its done, pay the set inspection fee and drive away..

Wonder IF 2 boxes of grog in the back of a Cessna 182 will cover its 100 hourly?

Nothing would surprise me 😞 

[FlyBoy1960]

talk about thread drift !

[jackc]

So long as you don’t ‘drift’ on touchdown 🙂

[spacesailor]

Compliance 

Most states for ' gas cooker appliances ' Do Not require a ompliance plate  .

IF

Said cooker is  Not fixed / fastend in.

Just bring ' gas bottle ' to cooker, couple up &cook !.

BUT

Put just one screw in & your caught by  Beauraucrasy.

Remember PORTABLE.

It shows how UNSAFE Beauraucrasy makes things that should be simple.

spacesailor

Now back to planes !, still going Cheap at Jandakot, Slattery auction.

 

[Markdun]

There is a lot of bull here.  Public liability.....?  I don’t think so.  Who is the lawyer? In most States and territories in Australia tort law was modified about a decade ago, to expressly exclude dangerous recreational activities, like RA-Aus flying, from tort law proceedings.  Negiligence and ‘duty of care’ just doesn’t apply, if the activity is inherently dangerous (which it is for light aircraft), if there is a notice warning to passengers/occupants etc, or if the student/participant signs a waiver, it just doesn’t apply.  The only jurisdiction in Australia that didn’t implement these reforms is the A.C.T..  I doubt the Ra-Aus has any liability over the misdeeds of any LAMES or L2 maintenance people.  The truth is that people accept liability themselves....as it should be.  It’s only the I’ll-informed, or insurance companies with vested interests, that keep peddling the lie of organisations like the ra-Aus being liable for what their members do.

In my view, the key issues are:  what is the problem? eg. unairworthy aircraft causing injury or damage to third parties (ie. not the pilot or passenger); and what is the best way to address this problem, eg. Weight, speed, maxim7m number of passengers, system of competence for maintenance people, noting it’s not going to be perfect or foolproof.  And the direction of the RA-Aus in just trying to replicate the old, failure laden, overly complex, model favoured by CASA to be buddies with ‘the industry’, doesn’t answer either of these questions.  My evidence is that in my experience there are equal proportions of LAMES and L2s who I wouldn’t let touch my aircraft, as there are that are exceptionally skilled, experienced and competent aircraft maintenance personnel.  In reality, the aircraft’s owner/operator makes the decision as to who he/she employs to maintain their aircraft (or do it themselves), irrespective of whether they are a LAME or L2...why not recognise this and give guidance on how to make this decision rather than perpetuate the untruth that all LAMES or L2s are competent because they jumped through some regulatory hoops?

[jackc]

People will only find out when there is an event resulting in a court case.

Then watch what happens when that old chestnut ‘case law’ gets trotted out?

I have never had any problem accepting liability for what I do,  IF I screw up then the buck stops with me.......

[ClintonB]

23 hours ago, jackc said:

Sorry, but the wheels fell off in your second sentence, the owner has no obligation to weigh their van, in Queensland unless the rules changed very recently.

In fact to use a truck weighbridge capable of weighing 40 tonnes or so is not accurate weighing 1.5 tonnes, as I have proven.

No caravan manufacturer I know of provides a certified weighbridge certificate declaring tare weight of van at time of sale.

Blame the regulators for poor administration of caravan and trailer weights,  they  just fine you for a breach on the side of the road.

The regulators could fix it but are too lazy......like other regulators I know 😞

 

Jayco weigh each van off the line and attach the ticket inside, no tare on plate due to accessories being added after manufacture are to be allowed for by owner. Lots of vans way over due to soft regulation, weighing one in a hundred and making mid season changes. Not many interested customers in doing research before buying and wanting more and more gizmo’s in their van to best their mates. I have worked in industry for 20 years now. Car sellers not advising in a practical way as turbo pointed out, 1 driver, some fuel and no crap onboard to get 3500kg towing do not help either for newbies only following advertising campaigns.

[jackc]

38 minutes ago, ClintonB said:

Jayco weigh each van off the line and attach the ticket inside, no tare on plate due to accessories being added after manufacture are to be allowed for by owner. Lots of vans way over due to soft regulation, weighing one in a hundred and making mid season changes. Not many interested customers in doing research before buying and wanting more and more gizmo’s in their van to best their mates. I have worked in industry for 20 years now. Car sellers not advising in a practical way as turbo pointed out, 1 driver, some fuel and no crap onboard to get 3500kg towing do not help either for newbies only following advertising campaigns.

Well, it would appear Jayco are in breach of the regulations:

 

https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/vehicles/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/files/vsb1-rev-6-20210222.pdf

 

This part of above document.....

 

 

[turboplanner]

7 hours ago, jackc said:

Well, it would appear Jayco are in breach of the regulations:

 

https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/vehicles/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/files/vsb1-rev-6-20210222.pdf

 

This part of above document.....

 

 

There's not a lot of point in making attempts to discuss the transport industry when people aren't fully aware of how to make an aircraft airworthy, so briefly a caravan is not usually complete when it comes off the line at the First Manufacturer's facility.

There is another Industry Term for a vehicle in this state: "Kerb Mass". This is the mass of a vehicle as it comes off the line.

 

For example all truck cab/chassis coming off the line are yet to have their bodies fitted so the First Manufacturer doesn't have a Tare Mass.

 

What Clint has described

So First Manufacturers, including Car Manufacturers supply Kerb Mass.

 

The second Manufacturer(s) adds/add additional components, and that result is the Tare Mass.

 

The First Manufacturer plates the vehicle and has overall responsibility for ensuring it's plated as VSB1 requires, and at the point of Registration the Tare Mass should be on the plate.

 

What ClintonB has described is a First Manufacturer helpfully providing a Kerb Mass with the Van so Second Manufacturers/the owner can decide how much more mass can be added before the van will be overweight fully loaded.

 

It might be helpfull to add, that when the Van manufacturer takes the van to a Licensed Weighbridge, the tickets are all usually printed out as "Tare" Mass.  A pedant might ask the Weighbridge operator to overwrite the ticket to Kerb Mass, and then everyone would be happy.

 

And just to add a further micro-explanation, every truck in Australia has a Compliance Plate fitted confirming the truck complies with ll Design Rules, even though it is DELIVERED to the Second Manufacturing Industry without a body or accessories, and by the time it is processed and ready for registration, is expected to meet the requirements of the PLate at Registration.