Electric Rag and Tube

[kasper]

Well all that infrastructure out to Roma in Qld could be useful in 10 to 15 years ...

 

In WA they are looking at mixed solar/wind covering 15,000 square kilometres and could produce up to 50 gigawatts of energy ... but putting that energy into hydrogen and ammonia to move not via wires but pipelines/trucks/trains/ships to be used as electrical generation at point of use:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-13/green-energy-hub-planned-for-south-coast-of-wa/100288734

 

If they did something on a smaller scale out in Roma but stored the hydrogen/ammonia to time shift generation to consumption they could recycle the wires infrastructure to feed it back into the SE Qld grid. 

 

Strangely planning to reuse infrastructure is what they want to do at Liddel in NSW - stop generating from burning coal and use the water storage to store excess generated energy from grid and time shift it back to consumption when needed - a hydro battery.   

 

The only thing I can see for certain is that electricity is going to be the major energy use form for the rest of my life and it will move to carbon neutral generation over that time.

 

Fossil fuels are literally the dinosaur in the electricity market and the major fossil fuel companies know it and are moving to replace their fossil fuel carbon businesses.

[kgwilson]

That 50 gigawatts is equal to the all of the current production of electricity from all existing power stations in Australia at this point in time. It is a very ambitious project but an example of what can be done. It won't stop the fossil fuel protagonists from criticising it though.

[Geoff_H]

Current electricity generators are very frightened of investing huge money in a power station only to have it stopped and the money lost.  Take Redbank Power station.  Killed by Labor government.  

If Liddell was shut down today the price of electricity would increase and it's present owner would make more money.  Liddell was first commissioned in 1971 with a design life of 20 years.  In 1988 a study did woyon what was required to extend the life to 2000.  How it still operates I don't know.  I know its output is severely reduced.  They really don't care how energy is generated, they just want to be doing it.  There is huge money in electricity.

In the 1990's Yalourn power was sold for a very large amount of money, the new English owners found that they were sold a pup, not nearly enough return on investment.  On learning how much the Victorian government got for power station sale every other government wanted to sell their power stations.  However there were no buyers as the buyers realised that there was not the profit in it.  In NSW the government decided to make the power stations much more profitable.  So renewing Poles an Wires was introduced.  Substations the didn't have a power supply was built and power stations now had heaps of potential expansion installed and a huge increase in price of electricity from poles and wire increases.  We essentially pay a tax for the money that the government got for the sale.  They built a few gas turbine stations, none combined cycle (much better efficiency and less emissions per kWh) cheap and profit making. A few years ago the bulk price of electricity averaged out at $140/MWh, $0.14/kWh, I pay a lot more than that for retail power, nice little earner.

Some gas turbines are installed and don't get used until the price of electricity goes high (one I know does not operate until the price goes above $6,000/MWh). After all a gas turbine can go from Zero to full load in 10 minutes.  

During the recent Queensland power failure the loss on power was made up by gas turbines just sitting and waiting for such a price rise.  It went so high that a in 5hours the profit amounted to 10% of the gas turbine purchase price. 

[onetrack]

In W.A., we had an idiot of a former Liberal Premier who pissed $308M of taxpayers money into trying to rebuild 2 rotted-out, rusty old coal-fired, adjoining power stations (Muja A & B).

Accountants brought in to try and give some numbers and comfort to the Liberals who were in charge of the shambles, stated that if the $300M already poured down the drain was written off, and another $46M poured into getting the power stations operational, they would return $54M over the next 10 years.

The rotted out power stations were completed, ran for a couple of years - then the adjoining cooling towers collapsed, making it necessary to scrap the "reconditioned" power stations.

The endless money splurge only ended when it became obvious to Blind Freddy, that another $300M would be required to keep on with reconditioning the clapped out wrecks of power stations, and that would only mean more embarrassment for the Libs, on top of the enduring embarrassment of already writing off $300M of taxpayers money for no benefit.

This is probably just one of the simpler reasons why the Liberals only hold a total of 2 seats in the W.A. Parliament today (Labor has 53 and the Nats 4), and Mark McGowan the Labor Premier, has a 98% popularity rating. The whole coal power station reconditioning exercise in W.A. under the Libs, was just blatant support of the fossil fuel lobby, and their mates in the major engineering businesses.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muja_Power_Station

[Geoff_H]

I was contracted to Kempe for design services.  I had previously worked on the restoration of Collinsville where we had problems with boiler leaks due to rust under lagging throat had sat in the cold elements for years.  I mentioned that to Kempe, they told me that that had checked for corrosion and shut me down.  Then they had the steam pipe rust failure. Not a site I was going to work in.  However I had the Mooney then and could have flown in and out from time to time, however got consulting contract with a Sydney Water job, a water turbine generator the a BHP contract and didn't want anything else to do with it.  

[Geoff_H]

The way that I remember it is that the restoration of Muja was proposed by Kempe in an attempt to make a fortune.  The result was dismal.  Similar to Transfield and Collinsville. 

[kasper]

2 hours ago, kgwilson said:

That 50 gigawatts is equal to the all of the current production of electricity from all existing power stations in Australia at this point in time. It is a very ambitious project but an example of what can be done. It won't stop the fossil fuel protagonists from criticising it though.

And that's the point - a single very large proposed WA zero carbon could cover all current Australian consumption and would have the ability to location and time shift the electricity to where it is currently used/consumed.  There is already wind/solar as a distributed generation capacity attached directly to the existing copper network that can't store ... but there are stand alone storages being proposed to deal with parts of that.  That distributed copper network connected generations/storage is growing - companies are already investing in it even without significant Govt. incentives. 

 

Everyone bags out EVs on the grounds they will "kill the network" and claim solar/non-fossil cannot provide the additional electricity to cover above the existing.

 

Sorry but spend admittedly large numbers on major remote solar/wind generation and think about a mix of storage/time/locations shift options (water/battery/gas/chemical) and add to that smarter grid connections at houses/EV charge points and as a large system the electricity system has a good possibility to provide existing use cover + EV car conversion demand + expansion.

 

[spacesailor]

I,m thinking about, ' solar roof panels, they won't get repayed in my lifetime.

BUT

what use,  if l need my reverscycle AC,  heating, sun down no solar-charge, & l pay high price for my heating.

Sun up panels working well, but l don't, need any power At,The, Moment. .

So 

I get credit !. Does that pay my evening heating bill ?.

I mean $ 4000 get,s me A lot, of flying! .

spacesailor

[octave]

31 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

I,m thinking about, ' solar roof panels, they won't get repayed in my lifetime.

BUT

what use,  if l need my reverscycle AC,  heating, sun down no solar-charge, & l pay high price for my heating.

Sun up panels working well, but l don't, need any power At,The, Moment. .

So 

I get credit !. Does that pay my evening heating bill ?.

I mean $ 4000 get,s me A lot, of flying! .

spacesailor

 

 

I am not sure exactly what your question is but I have just today been trawling through the details of my system.    My system was installed in Feb 2020. My 2019 bill (before solar) for the full year was $1650, my full year bill (after solar) 2020 was $919 .  To use one example  I can see through my metering that on Jan 23 I used 5.7kWh (this is what I took from the grid)  this cost me $2.61 (this includes the daily network fee)  on that day I sold 24 kWh back to the grid which gave me a credit for $2.52   I have saved money im 2 ways.  During the day I have been running my aircon without drawing from the grid until sundown. On this day the cost of my power was negative.   Of course this does not happen every day although it is surprising that this even works on many winter days.   

 

With my power retailer I actually buy blocks of power in advance and when I have used most of it (however long that takes) I buy another one.  Last time I bought a $270 block of power but because of my feedback credit it only cost me $97 

 

I am not a zealot trying to convince anyone to go solar I am presenting the facts as they apply to me.  You have to consider the payback period which for me is around 6 years.

Edited July 16, 2021 by octave

[jackc]

EVs will be a gold mine for manufacturers and dealers, with over the top repairs and maintenance costs.

Like this…

https://hackaday.com/2021/07/16/repair-hack-saves-tesla-owner-from-massive-bill/

[John Robert]

Back to Electric powered aircraft that you can buy now. Manufactured by Flight Design.

Advert follows:

The F2e is destined to be a leader in the next major change in flight training and personal recreation. The F2e was designed to meet EASA CS-23 and FAA Part 23/F44 certification for electric aircraft and the ASTM F3180 low-speed flight characteristics standard for departure characteristics, spin resistance, and stall warning. . Basic model price: €245.000 INCLUDING 75 KWH BATTERIES.

    So we already have 2+ hrs flight time, see the following.

@ 8000 feet MSL, 200nm

	Time	Energy
Taxi time	5	1
Takeoff&Climb	14	22
Cruise 85 KTS	100	50
Descent	20	0
Landing	5	2
Total	144 minutes	74 kWh

 

So it is expensive but it is also one of the most advanced aircraft available, even has airbags & of course a BRS.

I fly one of their early models a CTsw. Best purchase I ever made . Typical clever German design, eg the fuel switch /lever in the off position obscures the key required to start, It ensures that the fuel is "on" when the engine is started as you cant put the key in until fuel is on. Flight Design have an authorised manufacturing company in China. That should ensure a much more reasonable price if it ever gets into production.

 

Amuses me when I hear the "Chinese knockers" BMW  trusted there mini engines to be manufactured in China, come to think  Harley Davidson did the same until the US government put the stoppers on.

Following is off topic but tells us what we dont want to know or see. Never seen sights like this any where, I have travelled,Moscow to Beiging via Mongolia, China North to South, the length of Vietnam, most of Indonesis & even though I thought India was a terrible country for poverty this UTube shows  the worst conditions & a total disrespect for human compassion. It is in the country that many Australians follow blindly & want to emulate.

 

>

 

 

[Garfly]

Wow, well I did say 'oftentimes'. 

 

Some Australians reckon we're quite the trendsetters, scarcely in need of emulating anyone. If you've travelled to Utopia, you'll know what I mean.

 

Interesting aircraft advert.  

Edited July 16, 2021 by Garfly

[spacesailor]

In Australia it,s illegal to ' camp  ' in most urban spaces.

In byron bay it,s now illegal to ' pull over when tired ' camp in your vehicle.  most parks are offlimits to camplng.

Even the east coast of Sydney most streets have signs ' No camping ' everywhere. 

And that video, why only One side of the street ?.

spacesailor

[kgwilson]

I first visited the US in the 70s then later, on business trips in the 90s. Urban decay, homelessness and the wide divide between haves and have nots is endemic there as a product of their so called "Freedom" which seems to include the freedom to be a bigot, a racist, an ignoramous, an antagonist, an ar$ehole and every other trait that is abhorrent about the human race. It is a great system if you are wealthy because it allows you to exploit those who are not, to make you even more wealthy. It is possible to climb out of the gutter and become wealthy but the system transpires against you, and for the very few who do, most become just like those they hated in the first place.

[Garfly]

Why should other countries be any different from this one?  ;- )

 

Edited July 17, 2021 by Garfly

[onetrack]

I didn't see any highly-trained American police troopers, beating and harrassing and shooting anyone, in the video. The place must be improving!

[Garfly]

On 15/07/2021 at 8:46 PM, Garfly said:

Personally, I don't mind a bit of drift; like any good conversation, a thread is likely to take on a life of its own; head off in unexpected - and oftentimes productive - directions.    

Ai, carumba!  I recant.

[Student Pilot]

5 hours ago, spacesailor said:

In Australia it,s illegal to ' camp  ' in most urban spaces.

In byron bay it,s now illegal to ' pull over when tired ' camp in your vehicle.  most parks are offlimits to camplng.

Even the east coast of Sydney most streets have signs ' No camping ' everywhere. 

And that video, why only One side of the street ?.

spacesailor

Done for a reason to stop drifters from parking up and staying in areas. I can see why some get a bit uppity about it. They pay exorbitant rates  to live somewhere only to have some one pull up in their rusted out Varargo and dreadlocks blocking the view

 

[Garfly]

Et tu Studé?

There goes my dream of towing the old GoPod down to God's own country and parking on your place for the summer (and winter). Sheesh! I'd even have been willing to cut my hair.

 

                                      NO CAMPING!

 

Edited July 17, 2021 by Garfly

[spacesailor]

The Federal government past a law,  ( in the depression ) when worker,s were walking to find a job in a different state.

Stating ' Itinerants ' were Not breaking any law, camping, 

But l cannot find it now. 

spacesailor

[onetrack]

All those laws have long been repealed, Spacey. They do update the laws regularly to reflect current conditions and requirements.

The problem with the illegal campers, is that they're nearly all "use-up merchants". And none more so, than many of the younger European campervan travellers and "backpackers".

 

The warmer beachside spots such as Broome and Darwin are notorious for them. They camp in the beachside carparks, utilise all the free toilet facilities, annoy other beachgoers by taking up extra car park spaces to hang out their washing, and monopolise the public BBQ's and make maximum use of the free rubbish facilities.

They are public pests, pure and simple, and the harsher the Rangers are on moving them, the better.

 

I do have sympathy for those on low incomes who get turfed out of their rented accommodation by greedy landlords, and who have to resort to living in their car out of sheer necessity and desperation.

 

Near my rented factory unit, there's a small public open area with several large trees in it. This spot adjoins a sports oval, with a fenced main stormwater drain running at 90° to the road and oval.

There's an Indian or Pakistani Uber or taxi driver who lives in his car in this spot, all day, every day - and he has done for at least 2-1/2 years, that I can recall. He obviously works night shift, and sleeps in the car during the day.

The Rangers don't seem to have picked up on him, they leave him alone, because he moves his car every day, and it's not there at night.

He's making maximum use of the law to minimise his living costs. I have no idea where he accesses a toilet, I guess he uses free public toilets, but there's not one close by.

I wonder how many more immigrants are living like him?

 

 

Edited July 17, 2021 by onetrack

[kgwilson]

It is not just immigrants. A bloke camps up a track just off a country road only a few km from here. He has a beat up old Hilux and a dog. He leaves during the day and returns in the late afternoon. It is crown bushland which borders a mates farm. He bothers no-one & no-one bothers him. I have no idea how he survives, maybe on the dole & can't afford rent, maybe he has casual work & likes the lifestyle. I met up with him when we were mapping out bush tracks to use when the road gets flooded. He is a real bushie, wiry and wild looking but thoroughly pleasant to have a yarn to. We didn't ask why he was there and he never offered an explanation so we just went on our way.

[Methusala]

On 16/07/2021 at 3:19 PM, Geoff_H said:

Take Redbank Power station.  Killed by Labor government. 

Very easy to take exception to this type of statement (which implies that "All  labor govt's are economically ignorant"). I read the story of this from Wikipedia. Seems that it sought to utilise untried technology and failed to be economic. No mention of "meddlesome govt fiddling".

The late Turnbull govt embarked, with great ballyhoo, into Snowy 2.0. This was a boondoggle from the get go designed to show a competence in energy industry management that was simply not there.

The lies began immediately.  Promised a $2b price tag, completion within 4 yrs and a cheap solution to provision of back-up power to Sydney and Melbourne.

There was scant mention that very expensive new transmission lines would be necessary, nor that transmission losses would equal roughly 50% of the output. It was claimed that no public money would be required. I read an earlier engineering report stating that the projected operating head of around 850m put it into an almost experimental (perhaps even dangerous) category of technological effort. The Feds used public money to make a generous offer to NSW and Victoria, buying out their remaining interest in the Snowy. Cynically, this could be seen as a move to prevent the States questioning the wisdom of this investment somewhere down the track.

There is also the question marks over the business case of the feds plan to finance a $600m gas plant in the contested Hunter electorate. Energy companies have vigorously denied that this is needed but the govt will press on regardless (and use Snowy Hydro, fully owned, to build it).

I am not qualified professionally in these areas, but, as a concerned citizen, wonder why it is always Labor administrations that wear the blame for poor economic decisions. I place on record that the only reason I have to vote against Liberal administrations is that the alternative is almost always a slightly better bet.

[Marty_d]

 

 

[nomadpete]

Nice one Marty.

So, how are you going with your new cowling moulds? The'll be a lot more streamlined now that you don't have to fit them around that obsolete Rotax boat anchor at the front of your plane......