Electric Rag and Tube

[Methusala]

21 hours ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

 

2 underground insulated pits the size of 9 Olympic swimming pools each is a pretty big operation!

Try $10bn and counting for MT's boondoggle Snowy 2.0. This is exclusive of new transmission lines and estimated 50% energy loss in said transmission to Syd/Melb.

As I have stated before EV's are only a political sop. Without legislation how many will be bought. Angus Taylor has insulted the intelligence of us all by stating that subsidies in this field are the equivalent of govt paying for people's "luxury cars", fer *hrissakes!

Edited June 18, 2021 by Methusala
additions

[kgwilson]

23 minutes ago, Flying Binghi said:

“...China & India who are still building coal fired power stations. These are interim solutions to deal with their current problems...”

 

Kgwilson, I’m not sure where your getting yer info from though it ain’t born out by reality. Perhaps you seen it on the ABC... 😏

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

The place I definitely don't get my news from is Breitbart. Yer is not a word.

[Flying Binghi]

4 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

The place I definitely don't get my news from is Breitbart. Yer is not a word.

The article I linked to were not from Breitbart..🙂

 

India is currently dramatically expanding its coal related projects. Coal sea ports are being expanded. All rail lines that service coal supplies are to be doubled. New large engines to haul larger trains are being built. 

 

Perhaps a read from an Indian source...

 

“...Indian Railways inducted 100th Electric Locomotive of 12000 HP WAG 12 B in its fleet...

 

...These locomotive are proving to be a game changer for further movement of coal trains for Dedicated Freight Corridor...”

 

https://www.metrorailnews.in/indian-railways-inducts-100th-electric-locomotive-of-12000-hp-wag-12-b/

 

 

 

 

.

[spacesailor]

The Indian government needs ' super trains 'to haul that mass of paperwork the bureaucrat,s make, having five copies of everything. 

spacesailor

[facthunter]

They have heaps of derailments. Bad safety record. Nev

[onetrack]

Dr Benny Peiser of the Global Warming Policy Forum is not exactly a leading world expert on climate science - he's a social anthropologist, with a record of bouncing around with his views on GW.

 

His written English ability isn't a great deal better than the Binghi's, either. Writing "unfaced" for "unfazed" makes it look like the Binghi is his contract journalist.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Peiser

[pmccarthy]

5 minutes ago, onetrack said:

Dr Benny Peiser of the Global Warming Policy Forum is not exactly a leading world expert on climate science - he's a social anthropologist, with a record of bouncing around with his views on GW.

 

His written English ability isn't a great deal better than the Binghi's, either. Writing "unfaced" for "unfazed" makes it look like the Binghi is his contract journalist.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Peiser

Ad hominem I think they call this sort of response Onetrack. When you don’t like the message, criticise the person. Anyone who speaks up against the AGW hypothesis cops this.

[octave]

It is quite fair to question the qualifications of the author of any opinion or pronouncement on all sides of the debate. 

[Thruster88]

These guys are setting a new electric aircraft record,  600nm in 7 days.

 https://www.facebook.com/1393913727530526/posts/2891833907738493/

[FlyBoy1960]

I got a press release on this this morning.

 

http://sendy.pipistrel-usa.com/uploads/1595285590.jpg
PRESS RELEASE – JUNE 2021
Saturday 19 June, 2021 WORLD ENDURANCE RECORD ATTEMPT FOR ELECTRIC AIRCRAFT TO DEPART AUSTRALIA'S ADELAIDE-PARAFIELD AIRPORT TOMORROW Adelaide-based Eyre to There Aviation in partnership with platinum sponsor AvPlan EFB will aim to break a world endurance record for an electric aircraft with a 7-day, 18-stop flight around South Australia, starting tomorrow. The record attempt, flying a Pipistrel Alpha Electro plane, will start at Parafield Airport at 7.00am on Saturday June 19 with the first leg to Balaklava and the first overnight stop in Whyalla. The total distance will be 1,150km, which will shatter the previous record of 750km flown in September 2020 in Germany. The proposed route will include flying across to the Lower Eyre Peninsula and inland back to Port Augusta for flight sectors around the Yorke Peninsula before arriving back in Adelaide, subject to aircraft performance and weather. The world record attempt is being led by Eyre to There Aviation Managing Director, Barrie Rogers, who undertook the first ever electric flight in South Australia in 2020. Additional in-flight footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMrLHeKJA80&t=7s – with special thanks to (and permission from) aviation vlogger Stefan Drury. The flight team and support crew will include three pilots, five on-the-ground support crew, a second support (petrol-powered) plane, and two vehicles carrying recharging equipment for the aircraft. “The world record we’re seeking to break is basically an endurance record to push the durability and reliability of the aircraft. We’re also hoping to break a couple of other records including fastest point-to-point single flight and fastest climb rate,” Barrie says. “The Pipistrel Alpha Electro - dubbed the ‘Tesla of flying’ - currently has a flight time range of about 1 hour and cruising speed of 85 knots (157km/h) so we’ve had to very carefully plan each stop and build in contingencies for weather such as strong head winds.” “Barrie says the Pipistrel Alpha Electro is the world’s first and only serially produced electric aircraft currently LSA approved in Australia for flight training by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority” “This record attempt will further demonstrate the overall viability of this aircraft, with a view to one day setting up an assembly line in Adelaide producing up to 40 aircraft per year” “Electric aircraft are cheaper to buy, cheaper to run, are significantly quieter than conventional aircraft and don’t rely on fossil fuels. And they are ideally suited for short range flight training activities,” Barrie says. “The flight will also investigate suitable airfields along the route for the introduction of electric aircraft charging infrastructure into the future. Eyre to There Aviation plans to prepare a report for the State Government outlining the regional potential for upgraded charging infrastructure in support of current and emerging electric aircraft capabilities. This includes a combination of plane and electric vehicle charging where applicable. “Electric aircraft don’t yet have the range of other aircraft, but they’re perfect for short flights such as flight training and particularly circuit training, which is a core activity in obtaining a private pilot licence. “There are more than 250 registered flight schools in Australia using more than 3,400 training aircraft. Roughly 25 per cent of flight training covers the beginner phase which involves circuit training for take-offs and landings as well as training in close proximity to an airfield.  Electric aircraft are perfectly suited for this task. “The average age of small single engine aeroplanes in Australia is 36.4 years, so many of these are reaching the end of their lifespan.  We see a clear market opportunity to provide brand new, low-cost aircraft that have zero emissions.” MEDIA ENQUIRIES: Barrie Rogers (Eyre to There Aviation) – 0475 693 348             Mark Williams (Hughes PR) – 0401 147 558   ELECTRIC AIRCRAFT WORLD RECORD ATTEMPT   PROPOSED FLIGHT PATH: Parafield Airport - Balaklava - Snowtown - Port Pirie - Whyalla - Cleve - Tumby Bay - Port Lincoln - Cummins - Lock - Kimba - Port Augusta - Wallaroo - Maitland - Ardrossan - Kadina - Jamestown - Gawler - Adelaide Airport OVERNIGHT STOPS: Whyalla - Port Lincoln - Kimba - Ardrossan - Jamestown - Gawler    TOTAL DISTANCE: 1,150km PILOTS: Barrie Rogers, Catherine Conway OAM, David Bradshaw   OUR GENEROUS SPONSORS: Platinum (Naming rights):        AvPlan EFB Gold:                                               Aerometrex Silver:                                              West Coast Bitumen Silver:                                              RA-Aus (Recreational Aviation Australia)   KEY AIRCRAFT FACTS:   Aircraft type:                Pipistrel Alpha Electro Weight:                           368kg (empty); max take-off weight 550kg; Wingspan:                     10.5 metres Length:                            6.5 metres Cruising speed:             85 Knots Indicated Air Speed (157km/h) Cruise range:                 75 Nautical Miles (139km) Time Range:                  1 hour plus 30-minute reserve Max climb rate:            1,220 feet per minute Energy costs:                 $6.00 per hour Running costs:              $26.70 per hour (inc. battery replacement, maintenance & overhaul)   Pipistrel ALPHA Electro Information Pack:     >> DOWNLOAD HERE << End

[RFguy]

I'm happy to host anyone's nuclear waste in my backyard (really, I am) but I think nuclear fission has missed the boat. And we'll see if they get that new latest attempt at getting fusion going reactor in France going (ITER)....

 

Like I've said, if someone wants to donate a suitable airframe,  I'll electrify it... (electric only, not hybrid)
Been fine tuning the numbers for hybrid the 400V 3 phase generator only 65A per phase (delta) . The thing is, on hybrid, the use of a generator  + motor  (uncoupled shafts)  needs to offset the complexity of use of a reduction gearbox + clutch + motor. Reduction gearboxes, from say 9k RPM to ~ 2.5k RPM....dunno That's not my area of expertise. 

(a) Use of the ICE  driving the generator , inturn driving battery and motor + prop, 

 versus (b)  using a ICE driving the prop shaft via a reduction gearbox and clutch (said shaft has an electric motor on it for TO thrust supplement + emergency ) , 

In both there are big efficiency sinks- either the additional generator which will cost maybe 7 to 10 % in efficiency , or the reduction gearbox, that's got to cost something , just have no idea what that number is.  (IE attainable efficiency from gearboxes with ~ 3:1 ratios) . But a rotax914 , for example a 2.43, doesnt need special cooling on the gearbox so my bet is with the reduction gearbox.

You could end up with something like  a ICE and gearbox and clutch (rotax like) with the thru shaft electric motor on the prop shaft. I'm sure that's already been done.  wouldnt be able to use existing setups as the motor has to mechanically be in harmony with the shafts and mounts, it cannot just hang off the prop shaft etc.  The motor is not big. a Rare earth type, which are the lightest weight (but expensive, compared to heavier types that do not use rare earth permanent magnets) . link attached.

I have talked with these people quite a bit..

Yes they are called ROTEXELECTRIC. no relation Rotax brand.

 

http://www.rotexelectric.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/rex_90_v-495x400.jpg

 

 

 

 

[RFguy]

There are a couple of reasons still to go the uncoupled hybrid- that is the ICE can operate at a specific designed RPM and load, (driving the generator)  and that can be held within quite tight limits. So that freedom is available IF the ICE is optimized.  IE doesnt have to deal with the vagarities of being attached to a prop.   But it also represents a fair extra weight. The thing is, that weight - the ICE+generator can be put anywhere in the aircraft.  (but likely firewall forward).  I mean  hypothetically,  it could hang off the wings..

[RFguy]

The negatives with the uncoupled hybrid are definietly efficiency.

You cop ICE >> generator and then  >> motor.  I estimate 15% to 20% overall  extra input  there - there are extra cool paths and work required. 
 

ICE >> reduction gearbox  may be much better, again I have little experience with reduction gearbox mechanics and likely efficiency (3:1 to 4:1 ratio) .
 

I read helical and hypoid cuts are well over 95% for small reductions

Edited June 19, 2021 by RFguy

[spacesailor]

BUT

The smaller the prop radius, the higher the revs,

Equals 'inducted fan'.

Double motor-fan setup for takeoff, with one motor off for cruise. 

Could have ' contra-rotateing fans for better efficiency,

Could have rear fan, folding for less drag.

spacesailor

[RFguy]

space sailor. yes a few options you put up that is good.

My proposals are based on NOT altering the thrust posiiton, aircraft CG or yaw/power characteristics in any way so that re-certification only consists of accepting the power plant and nothing else-  the flying characteristics would NOT be affected.

[spacesailor]

Will that be possible,  considering  ( a HummleBird   )  15 kgms fuel & tank 38.5 kgms motor, on either side of firewall. Only 35 horses needed, but 45 would be better.

Now weight of electric motor, then Batteries plus controllers,  ?.

spacesailor

[RFguy]

In kW , 45HP = 34kW. TO power.

cruise 75% = 25kW

For rare earth motor (lightest) , use 14kg motor for air cooled, or 8kg motor for water cooled motor.

controller 2kg.

 

How much is left for batteries in kg ???

,(there will be kg left over because the engine and controller are lighter than an engine , and kg left over because there is no fuel anywhere) 

 

there may also be CG advantages, since motor is out the front leaving usually quite a bit of room behind it to the firewall (load up with batteries there to get weight and balance identical, including where the fuel used to be behind firewall (wings, inboard tank etc) .

?

 

you say 38kg for engine, so we have  16kg for motor and controller, leaving 38-16 - 22kg for batteries. then you have 15kg for batteries (was fuel) elsewhere. total batteries is 22+15 = 37kg . not much, however in cruise flying that would be about 37 * 0.7 = 26MJ of energy storage.

the plane will consume  6.3MJ on TO roll and climb to 1000', and then 1.5MJ on descent and landing, 
and for cruise at 75%, which is 25kW , that will be 90 MJ per hour. so for your 26MJ of battery storage, you will have 26-6.3 - 1.5  = 18MJ for 75% cruise (45HP engine)  , and 75% is 90MJ per hour, so you will have 18/90  0.2 or 12 minutes of cruise...

proportionally more for less than 75% of 45 HP of course. (I chose your higher power option).
engine would be a bit lighter, and battery last 25% longer.


 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2021 by RFguy

[RFguy]

a worked example : 

 

How to work this out :

1 kW = 3.6MJ per hour, or 1kJ per second

 

 

35HP = 26.11kW  (1HP = 0.746kW)

 

so 26kW will be 26kW x 3.6MJ/hour = 94MJ/hour

or per second, 26kW = 26kJ per second. (1kJ = 0.001 MJ)

but that's 100%

 

motor and controller  for 35HP (26kW) is about 12kg

You had 38kg engine, so 38-12 = 26kg left over in the front of the plane. and 15kg of fuel now batteries = 26+15 = 41kg batteries

 

41kg of batteries at 0.7MJ per kg (current storage)  =  28.7MJ storage

 

TO roll +climb 100% 26kW for 180 seconds = 26 x 180 seconds  = 4.7MJ 

Descent and landing 30% for 120 seconds = 7.8kW x 120 = 0.936MJ

cal it 1MJ

 

so, 28.7 storage - 4.7 MJ (TO climb) - 1MJ (descent, land)  = 23MJ

 

75% of 26kW is 19.5kW (power in cruise)

23MJ available divided by 19.5kW (or 19.5kJ per second)

23 / 0.0195 = 1179 seconds at 75% cruise .

 

i could do a spreadsheet.... :-) 

 

-glen

 

 

 

[RFguy]

, now if flying circuits, you'd probably get 4 circuits out of it. 

[spacesailor]

All that maths is mind boggling.

But it seems a feasible doer.

Big snag l,m now too heavey for the plane, ( will have t lose rwo legs, 10 kgms ), LoL.

spacesailor

 

[RFguy]

as you can see, its doable, just run times are short. 

An old paddock bound Jabiru is a good option but the wings cannot be easily (re)filled with batteries unless it is done at birth, or it would mean  be getting the wings off, opening them up etc at the ends. small 55 or 120 jab would be a good candidate, could get  6 circuits in one of those (they have internal fuselage  tank = internal inboard batteries) plus batteries in the front, plenty of room.  no exhaust etc. 

probably also, a few more knots since not cowling air exit lip to generate drag.

 

 

[spacesailor]

Yes ' doable & will get rid of the halfVW vibrations.

Only four circuits. Was hoping for at lease double that. No cross country there.

How long before a longer range is Affordable? .

spacesailor

[kasper]

Or a fabric wing Sapphire … like mine … because the wing is thick enough to take battery behind the spar.   
 

one stop shop for electrical aircraft system from prop through battery and including controllers, flight instruments and even the throttle is Geiger Engineering.   German.  Expensive.  But full plug and play.  
 

My sapphire is getting a 20/25kw motor - peak of 25 is higher than the 28hp kfm I’m taking out - and that motor is 4.7kg and turns at 2600rpm.  Prop to suit is 3.8kg. Controller is 3.4kg. Flight instrument and throttle are 1.4kg and that includes GPS. 3.5kw battery units (including integrated bms) is 15.5kg and plug and play can take up to 8 units.  Allow 10kg for all cabling and isolator switching and I have a system with 2 batteries giving 60 min flight that has 5 min climb at the start for 54kg installed.  
 

I lose engine, prop, steam gauges, fuel system plumbing and existing battery which is 42kg.  So I’m adding 12kg if I leave the exisiting fuel tanks in.  If I build new wings then I’m getting those 12kg back. 
 

and within the 300kg mtow I can expand by adding two more battery packs in the wings that would give 1hr 45m endurance. 
 

it’s just the $$ and time that is slowing me down.  The sapphire has been stripped of the engine and systems but still balking at the $$ for the Geiger system. 

[RFguy]

for the same chemistry , battery performance increases , about 5% per year.

We're actually due to another big leap in battery technology chemistry, and they are usually  at least 2:1 leaps.

for your case,   available battery : 26.7MJ. (41kg)

 

TO and climb 120 seconds 100% : 3.1MJ

downwind leg : 120 seconds @ 65% : 2MJ

descend to land : 120 seconds @ 30% : 1MJ
= 6MJ per circuit.

 

 

 

 

[RFguy]

Kasper, that's a very light motor indeed.

Must be pricey. (high end rare earths) 

 

that 20/25kW,  gather 20 continuous, 25 short term. water cooled r air cooled ? gather air cooled in that size.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2021 by RFguy