Electric Rag and Tube

[Geoff_H]

They were looking at 3 to 5 MW.  He is a Greenie but is also a very capable engineer.  He told me that he couldn't get one sold on economic grounds.  4 times the cost of running gas turbines and diesel engines.

[Geoff_H]

Most of what you read about renewable resources on the internet is published by persons or companies with a agenda.  The greatest con is to quote MW not MWh.  Every now and then I do a sanity check on the figures few rarely give statements that are honest

[octave]

2 hours ago, Geoff_H said:

What kW output do you get from your solar cells in a day?  A 300W panel where I am will put out 150kw

Speaking of a sanity check on figures I am perplexed by these figures.  To be clear I do understand that you meant 150W rather than 150KW but just to clarify are you saying that your 300w panel 150W or 150Wh?   

 

 

[Geoff_H]

It's the max panel put

 

[Geoff_H]

Output

[octave]

Just now, Geoff_H said:

Output

 

At this very moment my output is  around 172 W per panel so the total is about 2.4 KW (I can provide a screenshot for that if you like).  I am expecting a total of about around about 12KWh and we will use around about 9 or 10 KWh the other 2 or 3 will go back to the grid. In summer it would be 30ish Kwh in a day of which we would use 10 or 12 KWh.

 

 

43 minutes ago, Geoff_H said:

They were looking at 3 to 5 MW.  He is a Greenie but is also a very capable engineer.  He told me that he couldn't get one sold on economic grounds.  4 times the cost of running gas turbines and diesel engines.

I would love to see hard evidence for that.   In the absence of hard evidence let's just say that is true (although I don't think so) and they are just doing it for PR reasons or greenwashing. How long could they continue to pay 4 times the price for energy?   Most of these mines are in remote areas so we don't even get to observe them closely and most people are probably unaware. 

 

Rooftop solar has grown massively both in the residential area and in business premises.  Are we to assume that these businesses are so unanalytical that they are increasing their operating costs?   

 

I am not a zealot and I am not going around telling people that they should get rooftop solar.  I don't really care although it is a bit annoying when people assert that I am so dim that I haven't considered the capital cost, repair and maintenance and replacement of the panels (replacement will probably be a task for my heirs and successors)    

[Geoff_H]

Just one item on a wind generator is a crane to assemble it.  I don't know if you have ever ordered a large crane but they are mega expensive.  And take as long time to get into the outback.

Cells produce rated output at 20deg junction temperature.  You are getting a nice output at the moment.  What is the outside temperature where you are? Cells are specified with a degredation rate as junction temperature rises.  It gets very hot from electrical resistance while generating. I have often thought of using Peltier effect devices to cool the junction and increase the output, around double the rated output in summer.  Same could work for decreasing charging time of ev's

[danny_galaga]

1 hour ago, Geoff_H said:

Most of what you read about renewable resources on the internet is published by persons or companies with a agenda.  The greatest con is to quote MW not MWh.  Every now and then I do a sanity check on the figures few rarely give statements that are honest

Are you saying then that they don't make their cost back in 6 months n to two years or so? All the different people who need to check those figures, from economists to engineers to power companies to banks to insurance companies, all those thousands of people all doing their own due diligence, have got it wrong?

[Geoff_H]

Wind generator costs about. 1.5M/MW.  Gas turbines similar price.  Diesel engines much cheaper.  But you still need full capacity for when the wind does not blow.  So wind capital costs are twice plus outback installation costs which could be extremely expensive...I have worked on outback mines they are expensive.  Truck driver gets $200k+a year.  So wind costs $90M+ extra, 6W typical load

[kgwilson]

I installed my rooftop solar system in 2013 & have kept monthly records ever since. Then the systems didn't come with data access & instant input/output information bluetoothed to your phone. Total run time to 1/7/21 is 35,072 hours, total kWh produced is 26,266. Before installation my average quarterly power bill was $450.00. Now it averages $180.00 but well over half of that is the supply charge.

 

The 2kW system cost $4,000.00 and that was fully paid off in 5 years including interest on the money if I'd left it in the bank.

 

The current peak power cost per kWh is 38.489 cents. At that rate I have produced $10,109.52 worth of electricity since 2013 but they only pay me 9.5 cents per kWh that I sell back to the grid. Costs and charges vary by location and retailer and also over time but it is a prima facie example of the individual benefits of rooftop solar.

[spacesailor]

Long time to read through to here.

And

Reply! .

Two panels were free, ( demolition gang ) 80w, one 60 or 70w was a swap for something.

Conectors a couple from Ebay & my grandson paid for them, also threw in wire and assembly .

So as good as Free !.

Also

My neighbor has advertised his ten panel old system on gumtree.

So no freebie there. LoL

His new larger system cost $ 4,000., l did a quick sums check & it came out as 6 years to break even, on my  present consumption !.

And l would lose about $ 750 over that six years in bank interest.

spacesailor

[octave]

Geoff  I am aware of the effect of temperature on the output.   In 1990 we built a house on a large bush block.   I designed and installed my own solar power system.   Installing solar was the only economical answer.   The nearest power lines were a couple a KM away. The cost to extend the power lines was from memory $25000.   We lived with this system for 21 years and when we left the panels were going strong. Ex neighbours tell me that those same panels are still in use although the new owner has extended the system.    The performance of my present system is enhanced because it us an AC system rather than a DC system. Each panel has its own micro inverter. This adds to its efficiency and also means that if one panel is shaded or fails it does not affect the output of the other panels.  It also allows for monitoring of the performance of each individual panel wither instantaneously or over a given time period.

 

We did a lot of modelling of different methods of installation and given our available roof area.   We have 3 panels on the east 6 on the north and 5 on the west.  This means we get a reasonable input from sunup to sundown  of our high 

 

I am not naive and certainly not wealthy enough to throw away money for a feel good solution.   Solar panel payback times -  Choice

 

In terms of the mining companies adopting solar was not the cheapest method and it was only been done for PR reasons then I say so what?    Any business seeks to maximise its profits.  Isn't it similar to paying for adverts?  By the way my understanding is that Mining companies installing solar and battery storage is also about having reserve that can be instantly brought on line. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2021 by octave

[onetrack]

The Collgar Wind Farm in W.A.'s wheatbelt is privately owned, and has an expected life span of 30 years. It provides substantial economic benefits to W.A. and the entire project was scrutinised in great detail by Parliamentarians before it was approved.

 

The local energy supplier purchases the entire output of Collgar, and the private investors in Collgar (which includes a superannuation fund) are receiving a satisfactory rate of return on their investment.

 

Wind and solar are providing a substantial percentage of W.A.'s energy requirements, and one of the benefits of solar and wind is that the power generation can be located close to the end-users, thus reducing the need for huge, costly, long-distance transmission lines. There may be a sizeable cost in erecting wind farm turbines, but the cost of huge transmission line towers is also massive.

 

https://www.parliament.wa.gov.au/parliament/commit.nsf/(Report+Lookup+by+Com+ID)/23378607256ABC9548257959000B89E7/$file/22782129.pdf

[octave]

Alinta sees sub 5-year payback for unsubsidised big battery at Newman

 

 

[Geoff_H]

I have worked on the Newman installation.  What you read is half the truth.  How is the mine powered?  There used to be 3 GTs.  I worked on one.

 

[octave]

1 minute ago, Geoff_H said:

I have worked on the Newman installation.  What you read is half the truth.  How is the mine powered?  There used to be 3 GTs.  I worked on one.

 

 

So this is an untruth??????

 

 

I would imagine that this information would be available to shareholders and certainly it would be a serious matter if the Chief Executive is actively making misleading statements.   Rio Tinto is only one many mining companies investing in this technology.  It is not just one company but many both in Australia and overseas.   Mapping renewable energy projects at Australian mines

 

It may well be that since you worked in the industry technology has advanced.    When I installed my first rooftop solar back in 1990 a 60w panel cost $595.  Today  for $150 you can get a 350w panel.  Back in 1990 $595 was a lot of money

 

 

In an interview with RenewEconomy’s Energy Insiders podcast, Alinta Energy chief executive Jeff Dimery says the “rough payback of 4.5 years, which he says in an excellent payback for this type of asset.

 

One of the great fallacy of the current energy debate is that only wind and solar energy need “back up”. This is complete nonsense. The Newman power station has four different gas turbines, two of which usually have to be run all the time as spinning reserve just as back-up for the other one or two that may be required to generate electricity.

 

The presence of the battery means that spinning reserve is no longer required. Its speed of reaction and strength meant it could hold the grid together if the main turbine or turbine tripped, giving time for the other two to be fired up. This has significantly reduced outages at Roy hill.

“The whole role (of the battery) is to eliminate spinning reserve, so we are not burning gas in standby mode,” Dimery says. “The reliability of supply has increased dramatically on the back of that investment.

[Geoff_H]

Not an untruth, but the situation could be misconstrued from what is written.  

I am fully in favour of renewable energy.  But without a planned transfer and analysis of the situation we will see blackouts before too long.  

The attached file shows what happened in the recent Queensland failure.  Gas came to the rescue.  As older coal generators give up the ghost we will have little or no backup to cover failures.

x1.png.pagespeed.ic.0VmDUTsi93.webp

[octave]

2 minutes ago, Geoff_H said:

Not an untruth, but the situation could be misconstrued from what is written.  

 

How so? I am eager to learn.

 

The one thing that can't be denied is that there has enthusiastic uptake by mining companies, are we in agreement on that point or not?     So I think that where we differ is that you believe the mining companies are making poor decisions and adopting technology that is economically and poor being a little dishonest about it the economics of it, Is that your position? 

 

Many links I have posted are by mining industry sites not some green site or solar/battery company    Renewables are a no brainer for the Australian mining sector

 

In the end what does it matter, These companies are entitled to operate (within the law) however they like.

[Geoff_H]

It pays to thbe green and know that black lives matter if you are going to be allowed to mine the community assets.  I have knowledge of these situations but cannot supply information as I am bound by confidentiality agreements from when I was actively consulting.

Hey I reckon that we should go renewable for several reasons, one being emissions another saving of critical assets for future generations.  I just don't think that we are going in the right direction.  

[nomadpete]

Somewhere above, there was a passing comment regarding the cost of building HV transmission lines to bring power from remotely located alternative generators (wind/solar), into the existing grid.

 

This is indeed a significant influence on economic viability of ANY kind of new generator.

 

As an example, I'm pretty sure that Queensland grid company spent around half a billion dollars on a 275Kv grid expansion out to Roma. The spend was over a period of about 3 years, and was solely done to provide power to the new CSG industry. That's a lot of money that doesn't help citizens, it only helps us wash and pump our gas out of the country.

 

Hopefully the gas industry will be buying power in large enough quantity to pay for it.

 

However, once the gas is all gone, who is going to pay for the continuing maintenance of hundreds of K's of transmission line and the 30 or so substations along the way?

 

My only hope is that some bright spark builds a big solar farm and uses all that infrastructure to bring energy back to the cities.

 

[nomadpete]

I apologize for the thread drift. My experience with the power industry, and even my own profit/loss of my grid feed PV system.

My only defence is that I got sucked in by preceding thread drifters.

 

Back to electric ultralights......

[spacesailor]

More thread drift.

Can l use '  'trolly/tram ' connectors to run my EV Hummel along those transmission lines ..

BRIGHT SPARK

spacesailor

[Garfly]

15 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

I apologize for the thread drift. My experience with the power industry, and even my own profit/loss of my grid feed PV system.

My only defence is that I got sucked in by preceding thread drifters.

 

Back to electric ultralights......

Personally, I don't mind a bit of drift; like any good conversation, a thread is likely to take on a life of its own; head off in unexpected - and oftentimes productive - directions.    

[danny_galaga]

17 hours ago, octave said:

 

So this is an untruth??????

 

 

I would imagine that this information would be available to shareholders and certainly it would be a serious matter if the Chief Executive is actively making misleading statements.   Rio Tinto is only one many mining companies investing in this technology.  It is not just one company but many both in Australia and overseas.   Mapping renewable energy projects at Australian mines

 

It may well be that since you worked in the industry technology has advanced.    When I installed my first rooftop solar back in 1990 a 60w panel cost $595.  Today  for $150 you can get a 350w panel.  Back in 1990 $595 was a lot of money

 

 

In an interview with RenewEconomy’s Energy Insiders podcast, Alinta Energy chief executive Jeff Dimery says the “rough payback of 4.5 years, which he says in an excellent payback for this type of asset.

 

One of the great fallacy of the current energy debate is that only wind and solar energy need “back up”. This is complete nonsense. The Newman power station has four different gas turbines, two of which usually have to be run all the time as spinning reserve just as back-up for the other one or two that may be required to generate electricity.

 

The presence of the battery means that spinning reserve is no longer required. Its speed of reaction and strength meant it could hold the grid together if the main turbine or turbine tripped, giving time for the other two to be fired up. This has significantly reduced outages at Roy hill.

“The whole role (of the battery) is to eliminate spinning reserve, so we are not burning gas in standby mode,” Dimery says. “The reliability of supply has increased dramatically on the back of that investment.

As well, all public listed companies have to have an independent accounting firm go over their books. 

[turboplanner]

50 minutes ago, danny_galaga said:

As well, all public listed companies have to have an independent accounting firm go over their books. 

This is a very simplistic view of business. The fog and PR runs side by side with that, and if you don't check both and find the real story you usually finish up bruised.