Electric Rag and Tube

[Geoff_H]

A lot of expensive cars seem to catch on fire in Sydney's south west suburbs. Must be some type of self combustion in that area.  Lol

[Flightrite]

That’s incorrect flyboy. I’ve been using Lithium batts for many years always charging with the correct multi cell charger, I’ve had 3 catch on fire! I wouldn’t fly in a batt powered plane for all the tea in China!

Edited May 15, 2022 by Flightrite

[kgwilson]

We all fly around with enough highly flammable fuel to burn twenty houses down & when mixed with the right amount of oxygen & ignited 1 cup full will blow your house up. Any type of stored energy is dangerous if released suddenly. Lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO) batteries are very safe and now used in most electric vehicles. There are a lot more mobile phones on the planet with lithium batteries than there are every type of vehicle. How many of those catch fire?

 

BYD demonstrates the safety factor by drilling holes through its fully charged blade batteries & they don't burn or blow up. BEV cars are rapidly taking over from ICE cars & are infinitely safer in a crash from the perspective of catching fire.

[BrendAn]

7 hours ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

They only catch on fire when you use the wrong charger.  You cant use a "normal" lead acid charger

The car on fire in the video was connected to a  charging station. It still caught fire. 

[BrendAn]

7 hours ago, Geoff_H said:

A lot of expensive cars seem to catch on fire in Sydney's south west suburbs. Must be some type of self combustion in that area.  Lol

For a while after the gfc it became hard to borrow money and insure boats because of all the boat fires and sinkings around Sydney. 

[BrendAn]

4 hours ago, kgwilson said:

We all fly around with enough highly flammable fuel to burn twenty houses down & when mixed with the right amount of oxygen & ignited 1 cup full will blow your house up. Any type of stored energy is dangerous if released suddenly. Lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO) batteries are very safe and now used in most electric vehicles. There are a lot more mobile phones on the planet with lithium batteries than there are every type of vehicle. How many of those catch fire?

 

BYD demonstrates the safety factor by drilling holes through its fully charged blade batteries & they don't burn or blow up. BEV cars are rapidly taking over from ICE cars & are infinitely safer in a crash from the perspective of catching fire.

Didn't the Dreamliner have issues with lithium batteries.

[FlyBoy1960]

9 hours ago, Flightrite said:

That’s incorrect flyboy. I’ve been using Lithium batts for many years always charging with the correct multi cell charger, I’ve had 3 catch on fire! I wouldn’t fly in a batt powered plane for all the tea in China!

I would have to disagree with you unfortunately. You must buy a dedicated charger to suit the battery you are using. There are dozens of EarthX batteries at our airfield that I am aware of and they require a dedicated charger. None of these has ever caught on fire or even come close but you must use the Earth X battery charger.

 

One of the guys had an AeroVoltz lithium battery which was subject to a service bulletin requiring it to be removed by the manufacturer. We put this onto a 10 amp hour lead acid battery charger and within about 20 minutes it vented smoke, within 25 minutes it was all over after quite a decent and hot fire. When it was venting on fire it was like they discharge from a propane tank on fire. A lot of directional heat and flames. This is why they required these batteries to be removed from service.

 

EarthX are an expensive battery but if you use the dedicated charger the company has some sort of damage guarantee where they will replace the lost item if they ever catch on fire during charging

[turboplanner]

20 hours ago, onetrack said:

The percentage of EV fires is probably lower than the percentage of IC vehicle fires. I think I've personally witnessed, and seen local news items, for a total of about 8 or 10 IC-engine vehicle fires, just this year alone. Even diesel-powered trucks feature regularly in vehicle fires.

 

I would hazard a guess (which is true for IC-engine vehicles), that the greatest source of fire potential (for EV, IC-engine, or aircraft) is in the wiring harness - and how the harness is installed and run, and how it is protected, features very largely in the fire risk potential.

 

The second greatest fire threat in IC-engine vehicles is the exhaust manifold and turbo area. Blown turbo oil lines regularly cause fires (when hot oil sprays onto hot exhaust manifolds) and hoses and wiring coming into contact with a hot exhaust manifold, also cause fires.

At least with electric power, you don't have a red-hot exhaust manifold posing a continuous fire threat that needs careful management. If you crash in an aircraft, your chances of a major fire starting, thanks to a hot manifold, are exceptionally high.

 

What we are seeing is a major increase in vehicle fires; agree the hot manifold can be a source, but it was in Henry Ford's time too. The big difference, which has caused all the burnt bitumen patches you see on the roads and the TV stories showing semi trailer loads of frozen chicken on fire, is electronics which have given vehicle a lot more opportunities for failures and where rubbing cables and the quailty of harnesses and connectors hasn't been lifted enough to eliminated failures, or get damaged under normal mechanical work. And the electronics have spread; for example Electronic Brake System (EBS), traction control, lane control, adaptive cruise control are all chassis items. (I realise they disappear if you put the engine in an aircraft, but they're an example of non-engine electronics with will still be hanging off the ECU and other on board computers). In some ways we're actually lucky to be able to fly the 50 year old pre-emission regulation concepte and layouts in ICE aircraft. 

If you add an electric motor to the base load of electronics, and you add a big battery source to supply the power in addition to the accessories, Murphy's Law say you will have a lot more maintenance concerns rather than less.

 

I wouldn't expect you, in WA to be seeing many BEV or Hybrid electrical fires because of the statistics; 76% of the Australian Car Park of vehicles is within Qld, NSW, Vic (Car Park is the industry term for ALL registered vehicles)

 

All electric vehicles, that is Battery Electric Vehicles plus Hybrids, pus anything else with some sort of electric drive currently amounts as of January 2021 to just 0.114% of the total Car Park, so you wouldn't expect to see too many burning.

 

There is a secondary comparison that needs to be made; in an EV fire you can put the brakes on and jump out as soon as you smell smoke, but in an electric aircraft fire you still have those minutes to get it down to ground level and then drop it on a piece of ground that won't kill or injure you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Flightrite]

You missed my point flyboy! 

[onetrack]

If we look at Norway as the worlds leading country in EV vehicles (nearly 75% of the vehicles sold in Norway last year were fully electric-powered), we don't see or hear or read of Norway having a massive problem with EV fires. It is simply not a major EV problem, despite the fossil-fuel naysayers.

 

The fire problem with ICE vehicles has been well known for over 100 years, and ICE vehicle manufacturers have a range of procedures to address and minimise the chance of fires - all developed as a result of determining ICE vehicle fire causes.

Who recalls the American cars such as the Ford Pinto that regularly exploded into fireballs, thanks to poor petrol tank positioning and protection, if they suffered a hit to the rear end?

 

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-driving-safety/auto-safety-testing/did-pintos-really-explode-in-the-1970s.htm

 

The Dreamliner did have initial lithium battery fire issues. The problems were traced back to build quality control issues in the Yuasa factory, and inadequate battery internal insulation.

A concerted effort by Boeing and Yuasa engineers, involving thicker insulating plates in the battery, plus the installation of a stainless steel fireproof battery box ensured the problem was completely fixed.

When was the last time you heard of, or saw, a Dreamliner reporting a battery fire? It would be at least 8 years.

[kgwilson]

29 minutes ago, onetrack said:

 

 

The Dreamliner did have initial lithium battery fire issues. The problems were traced back to build quality control issues in the Yuasa factory, and inadequate battery internal insulation.

A concerted effort by Boeing and Yuasa engineers, involving thicker insulating plates in the battery, plus the installation of a stainless steel fireproof battery box ensured the problem was completely fixed.

 

I'd say that was a direct result of the Accountants hijacking Boeing from the Engineers minimising the specification to get a cheaper product. This all came to a head during the 737 Max investigation.

[octave]

From the US NTSB 

 

 NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board) showed that electric cars in the US caught fire at a rate of 25.1 per 100,000 sales compared to 1,530 for ICE vehicles and 3,475 for hybrids.

 

Pure EV is the least likely to catch fire followed by ICE and the most likely to catch fire is a hybrid which has a higher rate than the other 2 combined.  I imagine a hybrid has a higher rate because it both petrol and batteries.

[facthunter]

Electric doesn't have lube oil which is often the source of fires.. (Power steering and  Trans).   Nev

[spacesailor]

WHAT  !,

No power steering in E Vs, ?.

spacesailor

[turboplanner]

4 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

WHAT  !,

No power steering in E Vs, ?.

spacesailor

Check the specifications, Nissan Leaf has electric without a steering column.

[facthunter]

Quite a few of the Later ICE vehicles have electric assisted steering,   Nev

[spacesailor]

Like a tracked caterpillar !.

spacesailor

[kgwilson]

It's been around for a long time. My 2012 Mitsubishi Lancer has electric power assist steering. Hydraulic power assist steering reduces power from the engine like the old torque converter autos used to. Electric has virtually no adverse effect & the electronics provide both smooth graduated assist & appropriate feel for different situations.

[spacesailor]

The ' Loaded ' alternator needs that power input.

Never get something for nothing. 

Or is there no ' power input ' while vehicle is in use.  ( like a posties bike ).

spacesailor

[Thruster88]

Space Man, the electric power steering only uses energy when it needs to produce some assistance. The open centre hydraulic power steering pump has to pump fluid continuously although not always at high pressure so there is always some energy used.

[walrus]

Electric cars and floods. Don’t go there.

[octave]

3 hours ago, walrus said:

Electric cars and floods. Don’t go there.

Is a battery electric vehicle safe in a flood?

[FlyBoy1960]

there was an electric aircraft that crashed in Europe and was in a dam for 2 days or 3 days before it could be recovered. I read that when it came out there were no damage to the batteries and in fact (if memory serves me correctly it was the Norway CAA) were able to turn the batteries back on and operate the propulsion system.

 

https://www.euronews.com/2019/08/14/norways-first-electric-plane-crash-lands-on-lake

 

I can't find it now but there is a CAA report detailing how just about everything worked when the aircraft was recovered and inspected. There was no battery fire or any other issue.

[turboplanner]

Depends how it's designed, assembled and maintained.

I've thrown about five RC helcopters/aircraft/drones/cars in the garbage after the became waterlogged and defied every attempt to get the moisture/water out.

 

Add to that a list of keyboards, and computer equipment where people spilled "only a little bit of coffee".

 

And one large screen TV, unrepairable after I washed it with a fine spray and cloth.

 

We are talking about a Rag and Tube Aircraft so nowehere near all the systems of a car, but more likely to be designed and built unsealed in someone's garage or lounge room, so a factor in considering the design and build.

[Flightrite]

Water and electrons don’t mix, ask any early vehicle Pommy POS!😂