Electric Rag and Tube

[kgwilson]

In the recent flood at South Grafton aerodrome we had a metre of water through most hangars. All my power tools, 2 lawnmowers, 2 x electric pedestal fans, cables etc were submerged for 4 days. When I canoed to the hangar & went in to check on things I accidentally knocked my portable radio off the table & it sank to the bottom.

 

I retrieved the radio took home and pulled it apart. Then I sprayed it in every nook & cranny with clean water to get rid of the dirt reside from the flood water. I left it to dry naturally for about 4 days. I put the same batteries back in, turned it on & it worked perfectly & still is. I just hosed all the power tools, wiped the exterior clean and the fans to get rid of flood water residue & left them to dry also. All work as if nothing had ever happened. The lawnmowers were full of water so I replaced the oil & fuel dried out the air filters, removed the plug & spat all the water out, got the water out of the priming bulb & float bowl, reassembled it all & left it a week to make sure the magneto was dry & both started after a couple of pulls.

 

Electronics don't like getting wet but if the boards have been properly lacquered a good clean & then left to dry without any artificial assistance & they will more than likely suffer no ill effects.

[facthunter]

The more pure the water, the less the damage. Salt water starts metal cancer. Magnesium probably fizzes in it unless specially treated.   Nev

[turboplanner]

13 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

Electronics don't like getting wet but if the boards have been properly lacquered a good clean & then left to dry without any artificial assistance & they will more than likely suffer no ill effects.

That might be what makes all the difference. If so then you could design out water issues when building an electric aircraft.

[kasper]

50 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Depends how it's designed, assembled and maintained.

 ***snipped***

We are talking about a Rag and Tube Aircraft so nowehere near all the systems of a car, but more likely to be designed and built unsealed in someone's garage or lounge room, so a factor in considering the design and build.

I would tend to disagree ... more rag and tube electric will be like rag and tube IC - buy a power unit and put it on an airframe.

 

If the suppliers are offering plug-n-play solutions for electric you will find that their battery packs will be self contained with safety cutouts etc.   Geiger in Germany offer plug-n-play for end-to-end electric from powered parachute size up to 100hp and are set up to add up to 8 of their battery packs.

 

Not cheap. 

Not as light as an IC set up for the same power/range

BUT they are plug and play safely

[onetrack]

If you drive your ICE car into a flooded area and water enters into the cabin, and rises more than 150mm above the door sills, it is classed as a Statutory Write Off under safety legislation.

This is because many electronic components involved in the safety features of the vehicle are mounted under the seats or in the footwells. Immersion of these components is regarded as affecting the safe operation of the vehicle, so it is written off. You can get a pretty vicious shock from a 12V battery, try shorting the main power cable from the battery!

[spacesailor]

Iv,e often driven my 4 X4s across rivers.

BUT

Thats not the reason for my snorkel,  it,s merly to get the air inlet above the 1 metre high Dust cloud  on our dirt roads.

Often worried about the water coming in the Open windows, as it is above the bonnet, & only a little lower at the window sill.

Lucky me, all went well, & nobody came to grief. 

My biggest trip & convoy was approximately 80 4X4s, traveling NSW, SA, NT, Queensland & then back to Sydney . Those without snorkels had to chang air filters every other day, 

spacesailor

 

[facthunter]

No motor likes DUST.   Most aero engines really have no filter for the intake air. They rely on being above it.  Nev

[octave]

2nd attempt! Driving the Tesla Plaid UNDERWATER! We did it!! Tesla Submarine 2.0

 

 

[Garfly]

On 15/05/2022 at 10:37 AM, onetrack said:

The percentage of EV fires is probably lower than the percentage of IC vehicle fires. I think I've personally witnessed, and seen local news items, for a total of about 8 or 10 IC-engine vehicle fires, just this year alone.

 

 

 

[kgwilson]

You obviously missed Octaves post with information from the US ATSB. EV car fires  25.1 per 100,000. ICE car fires 1530 per 100,000. No contest, ICE cars are 61 times more likely to catch fire than EVs.

Edited May 22, 2022 by kgwilson

[Garfly]

8 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

You obviously missed Octaves post with information from the US ATSB. EV car fires  25.1 per 100,000. ICE car fires 1530 per 100,000. No contest, ICE cars are 61 times more likely to catch fire than EVs.

 

No, the video backs up Octave's (and Onetrack's) posts. Those are ICE vehicles.

As the video commentary says, oil leaks and fuel line leaks have been major factors.

[turboplanner]

14 minutes ago, Garfly said:

 

No, the video backs up Octave's (and Onetrack's) posts. Those are ICE vehicles.

As the video commentary says, oil leaks and fuel line leaks have been major factors.

Oil leaks and fuel line leaks have been around since Henry Ford started to drive to work.

What has been the big change since, say, 2005?

[facthunter]

Power steering, Air cond and automatic transmissions and people never look under the bonnet unless smoke comes out or the engine stops.  Nev

[Garfly]

 

17 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Oil leaks and fuel line leaks have been around since Henry Ford started to drive to work.

What has been the big change since, say, 2005?

 

Well the big change that the video above refers to is the recall - due fire-risk - of 5.8 million vehicles. 

 

(More than one third of the number of Model-Ts Henry ever made.)

[Ian]

I think that electronics generally will be more reliable and lower maintenance than IC vehicles. However I suspect that they won't age particularly well. By that I mean that I don't think that 30 year old teslas will ever be a thing. I've got an music amplifier that about 12 years old which I've replace a few diodes in already however it's behavior is becoming increasingly erratic. I guess I'll buy a new one. 

Engines made of cast chunks of metal will age better but have higher operating costs. Parts will still rust but they'll be discrete and replaceable.

 

Electric planes might be able to meet a few niche roles like flight schools with or short intra city commute roles. However the energy density's just not there and is unlikely to ever be there unless you go the nuclear option. For those with an interest in nuclear technologies the Aircraft Nuclear Reactor experiment was a demonstration of the first MSR which is finally being considered as a reactor technology.

I'm not sure if I'd like flying reactors though.

 

Anyway which the recent political machinations the whole climate denial debacle should be in the back seat for a while while the Liberals go through grapple with the realization that they represent and don't lead the people. If you only represent a minority that's the number of seats that you'll have.

 

[turboplanner]

15 minutes ago, Garfly said:

 

 

Well the big change that the video above refers to is the recall - due fire-risk - of 5.8 million vehicles. 

 

(More than one third of the number of Model-Ts Henry ever made.)

So the cause of the fires is the fires?

 

[Garfly]

6 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

So the cause of the fires is the fires?

 

Sorry, I misunderstood your question. 

 

Anyway, according to one expert quoted in this report:

 

https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/local-news/up-in-flames

 

what has changed is that     " ... greed has overcome safety"

 

Which does bring us back to aviation.  (Boeing, we're looking at you.)

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

11 minutes ago, Garfly said:

Sorry, I misunderstood your question. 

 

Anyway, according to one expert quoted in this report:

 

https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/local-news/up-in-flames

 

what has changed is that     " ... greed has overcome safety"

 

Which does bring us back to aviation.  (Boeing, we're looking at you.)

 

What has changed is electronics, emission controls which require high pressure fuel injection (200 mpa/29000 psi) and high pressure fuel delivery where there is now a termination in the engine compartment of the fuel line powered by a high pressure electric pump in the tank, which uses a three piece click-action connector/lock and cover above the rear of the engine, all made of plastic, which melts with an engine compartment fire, allowing a high speed jet of fuel to fan the flames. That particular vehicle destructing fire is removed with an EV, but they still have a huge amount off common electronics such as anti-lock brake systems which catch fire and on board diagnostics, rubbing causing shorts etc. and much of the electronic wiring is very light with plenty of clips. 

[Thruster88]

2 hours ago, kgwilson said:

You obviously missed Octaves post with information from the US ATSB. EV car fires  25.1 per 100,000. ICE car fires 1530 per 100,000. No contest, ICE cars are 61 times more likely to catch fire than EVs.

A quick calculator fact check may show the data is not quite right. 20 million registered vehicles in Australia, so 15,300 ICE fires per million per year makes 838 per day in Australia. Seems a little high. Wonder what % is due to vandalism or criminal activity.  

[turboplanner]

21 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

A quick calculator fact check may show the data is not quite right. 20 million registered vehicles in Australia, so 15,300 ICE fires per million per year makes 838 per day in Australia. Seems a little high. Wonder what % is due to vandalism or criminal activity.  

For a start, using US stats in Australia is not reliable, but apart from that the exact numbers aren't that important, but when you're in towns and cities or out on the road, look for burn marks - usually what looks like a poor road repair  but usually with a few rusty parts. A lot of semi trailers have been going up also, so there is a fire issue, but this thread was supposed to be about electric rag and tube - very simple airframe, very simple engine. Kasper is the one with the best grasp of what items fit this grass roots application, and it may be possible just to have the electronics and battery/s in one small module which can be jettisoned

[Garfly]

30 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

... but this thread was supposed to be about electric rag and tube - very simple airframe, very simple engine. 

Okay, back to the future, then  ....

 

 

[Garfly]

 

More info on the Sherwood eKub in this article

 

https://flyer.co.uk/britains-sherwood-electric-kub-makes-first-flight/

 

It even makes mention of an electric Skyranger that's in the works. 

 

"Also heavily involved is Flylight led by Paul Dewhurst (who is well on with the build of the second aircraft, the electric SkyRanger Nynja)."

 

This Royal Aeronautical Society article

https://www.aerosociety.com/news/the-way-ahead-for-general-aviation/

 

says that the Skyranger project involves a hybrid type:

 

"The EnabEl plan is to explore the design, build, fly and certification of electric microlights with two companies: electrifying the TLAC Kub and making the Flylight Nynja hybrid capable."

 

 

 

 

 

This is the brochure for the (ICE powered) Kub:

 

Sherwood-KUB-flyer.pdf

 

https://www.g-tlac.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Sherwood-KUB-flyer.pdf

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Garfly

[onetrack]

There's a factor in the increased number of road vehicle fires which has not been mentioned - and this may also be likely to apply to aircraft. As manufacturers have strived with great effort to keep the tare weight of road vehicles down, they have started using a lot more magnesium alloys. And as we all know from high school science, magnesium and its alloys burn like roman candles in a fire.

So the increase in the use of magnesium alloys has only added to the already-increased fire potential, caused by much-increased wiring, increased number of electronic devices installed, and the very high pressure fuel systems, as Turbo mentioned.

 

Then there's also the problem, when using water on a fire - drenching with water is the recommended treatment for Lithium battery fires - but when water is sprayed on burning magnesium alloys, they explode!

 

It all basically comes back to keeping your systems and devices simple, and low in number, and you reduce your fire risk.

 

 

 

[Flightrite]

I’ve completed today a trip up to my mates place, 440 nm in 2.5 hrs using 84ltrs costing just under $230 bucks. It couldn’t be done in some batt powered machine and never will in my lifetime! I’ll stick to my hydrocarbon burning contraption for just the thrill and simplicity of it👍

[spacesailor]

Eight years !.

yes

Just 8 years,

the target, for dumping, All our privately owned I C vehicles. 

ENGLAND is converting secondhand cars already, 

In eight years l don,t think there will be a lot of improvement in the batteries. 

SO

Going on holiday's interstate will be a thing of the past.

Also the fuel cost is already getting prohibitive for just leisurely Holliday use.

spacesailor