Electric Rag and Tube

[turboplanner]

2 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

Eight years !.

yes

Just 8 years,

the target, for dumping, All our privately owned I C vehicles. 

ENGLAND is converting secondhand cars already, 

In eight years l don,t think there will be a lot of improvement in the batteries. 

SO

Going on holiday's interstate will be a thing of the past.

Also the fuel cost is already getting prohibitive for just leisurely Holliday use.

spacesailor

You're talking about the UK who are sliding into trouble.

They've got the market share up to 11.6 which is way above most of Europe, but they've run out of power and are working flat out to get a supply line built from Norway where the power is hydro-generated so low CO2 output, but the lead times might knowck out the 2030 deadline.

[kgwilson]

57 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

Eight years !.

yes

Just 8 years,

the target, for dumping, All our privately owned I C vehicles. 

ENGLAND is converting secondhand cars already, 

In eight years l don,t think there will be a lot of improvement in the batteries. 

SO

Going on holiday's interstate will be a thing of the past.

Also the fuel cost is already getting prohibitive for just leisurely Holliday use.

spacesailor

2030 is the year that the sale of new ICE cars will be banned in the UK. Existing ICE cars will continue till they disappear naturally. As petrol is getting very expensive that may be sooner than we think. Some car manufacturers have already announced they will cease producing ICE cars by 2030. BYD, Ford, GM, Jaguar Landrover, Mercedes Benz, VW, BMW, Volvo, Jeep, Peugeot, Fiat, Citroen & Opel have pledged to cease ICE production by 2040. Toyota plans to only produce only 10% pure ICE vehicles by 2025, the rest being Hybrid or pure EV. BYD has already ceased production of pure ICE vehicles.

 

Battery technology has been improving at an astonishing rate in the last couple of years and will continue to improve dramatically over the next 8-10 years. Energy density of batteries continues to improve as well. New high end EVs have already cracked the 1000 km range barrier. BYDs blade battery is so safe you can hammer a nail through it & it won't explode or catch fire.

 

There are 170 manufacturers of Electric vehicles in China producing more than 300 different models from Mopeds to super luxury limousines. The cheapest BYD EA1 or Dolphin is a small hatch EV the size of a Corolla that sells for $AUD20,200.00 in China. These go on sale in Australia later this year.

 

This is the future like it or not. Hang on to that ICE car for as long as you can if you don't like electric. The price of petrol though will eventually have all the dyed in the wool ICE forever people rethink their commitment.

 

 

[Thruster88]

18 hours ago, Flightrite said:

I’ve completed today a trip up to my mates place, 440 nm in 2.5 hrs using 84ltrs costing just under $230 bucks. It couldn’t be done in some batt powered machine and never will in my lifetime! I’ll stick to my hydrocarbon burning contraption for just the thrill and simplicity of it👍

 176 knots @ 34lph, RV with a small tail wind or a Lancair 360?

[pmccarthy]

Where are the materials going to come from to make all these electric  marvels?

[turboplanner]

51 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

Where are the materials going to come from to make all these electric  marvels?

I don’t think that will be a problem. kasper is the only one with motors and materials at this stage.

Edited May 23, 2022 by turboplanner

[onetrack]

The materials are already being produced. There's a massive stockpile of Lithium ore in W.A. - so much so that a couple of Lithium miners had to shut down operations until the Lithium uptake improved.

The problem is actually bottlenecks in battery production, and trying to build manufacturing facilities fast enough.

 

Unfortunately, as Kevin says, it's the Chinese who can knock up new battery manufacturing facilities in a month, while we in the West dither around with a reluctance to invest. Property investment is always top of the list for investment monies, instead of battery manufacturing facilities - but one day that will change when the property market undergoes a major correction.

 

Copper may be the major metal shortage - but aluminium has replaced copper on more than one occasion. Besides, when there's an increase in price of a metal, the market responds with more miners going looking for viable copper deposits. In the W.A. wheatbelt, about 150kms NNE of Perth, a miner has just indicated they will proceed with a major copper mining project, a $1.3B project. 

The copper grade is pretty low - like about 0.3% - but it's highly viable operation, due to a shallow ore body, and also due to the current circumstances of high demand and a good copper price.

[turboplanner]

11 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by turboplanner

[octave]

6 hours ago, spacesailor said:

Eight years !.

yes

Just 8 years,

the target, for dumping, All our privately owned I C vehicles. 

ENGLAND is converting secondhand cars already, 

In eight years l don,t think there will be a lot of improvement in the batteries. 

SO

Going on holiday's interstate will be a thing of the past.

Also the fuel cost is already getting prohibitive for just leisurely Holliday use.

spacesailor

Batteries will continue to improve just like other technology. We are not at the end of technological development.   You can drive interstate in an EV, I have done it.

The amount of excess power my house rooftop system produces is enough to drive 14000km.  I am looking at getting an EV next year. The vehicles I am considering can also provide V2L (vehicle to load) which can  act as a house battery.   

[octave]

1 hour ago, pmccarthy said:

Where are the materials going to come from to make all these electric  marvels?

Petrol can only be burnt once. The materials in batteries can potentially be recycled. Tesla is working towards a circular economy.  Fossil fuels are a finite resource. Whilst it is reasonable to ask where materials for the batteries (not just for EVs) will come from we also need to apply that questioning to the status quo.

[turboplanner]

14 hours ago, kgwilson said:

Battery technology has been improving at an astonishing rate in the last couple of years and will continue to improve dramatically over the next 8-10 years. Energy density of batteries continues to improve as well. New high end EVs have already cracked the 1000 km range barrier.

Do you have any details of these in a size that might be suitable for a Drifter or Trike size aircraft?

[kgwilson]

The BYD blade battery is not a good shape to power aircraft. It is 905mm long x 118 wide & 13.5 high (thick), 3.2 volts with a capacity of 202 Ah. The Tesla type of battery of multiple cells in 18650 (18mm x 650mm), 21700 & 46800 sizes can easily be configured in to shapes that fit a given volume. 18650 Li-ion batteries have been around for a fair while now but the improved LiFeP04 type it is safer as it won't explode or catch fire like standard Li-ion, it is cobalt free, can be discharged fully without degradation & recharged 3-5000 times. but has lower energy density that Li-ion.

 

In any aircraft application weight is the main problem.

Edited May 24, 2022 by kgwilson

[danny_galaga]

On 22/05/2022 at 10:56 PM, Flightrite said:

I’ve completed today a trip up to my mates place, 440 nm in 2.5 hrs using 84ltrs costing just under $230 bucks. It couldn’t be done in some batt powered machine and never will in my lifetime! I’ll stick to my hydrocarbon burning contraption for just the thrill and simplicity of it👍

I think the idea was that an electric tag and tube is kinda getting back to the basics again. Like flying the ultralight in my avatar. Crack of dawn, pootle around for an hour or so. Big smile on your face.

 

I still wished I had thought of something like this when I bought my kit that I'm struggling to remain interested in. Over 3 years and not flying. If I'd bought a Quicksilver and converted it to electric 3 years ago. I would have been having a (quiet) blast. 

[onetrack]

There is one field where advances can be made with current batteries - and that is in moving to Structural Batteries - i.e., batteries that are structural members, as well as providing the power source.

 

That clever Mr Ralph Sarich and one of his companies, Cape Bouvard Technologies, have been working on a structural battery for some years now. The benefits of the CBT Structural Battery are multi-pronged - lower production costs, simpler to manufacture, weight savings, and improved efficiency.

The CBT Structural Battery development appears to have slowed in the last couple of years, possibly due to COVID-19 impacts, but I'm sure they're still on track to produce a commercial product, or at least an advance in battery technology, pretty soon.

 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/aesr.202000093

 

https://vimeo.com/265095127

 

[facthunter]

Ditch it in the sea and you could die from a Salt & battery.. ???  Nev

[kgwilson]

New battery technologies will probably render current Lithium ion batteries obsolete within 10 years. LiFePO4 batteries have already been able to get rid of cobalt but at the expense of energy density. Another new cobalt free battery technology using nickel, aluminium & manganese for the cathode in Li-ion batteries claims higher energy density giving up to 800km of range.

 

Some of the new technologies will have a flow on effect for Aviation. Some of the major technologies are specified in the Green Cars publication at

 

https://www.greencars.com/guides/the-future-of-ev-batteries

[Marty_d]

8 hours ago, danny_galaga said:

I think the idea was that an electric tag and tube is kinda getting back to the basics again. Like flying the ultralight in my avatar. Crack of dawn, pootle around for an hour or so. Big smile on your face.

 

I still wished I had thought of something like this when I bought my kit that I'm struggling to remain interested in. Over 3 years and not flying. If I'd bought a Quicksilver and converted it to electric 3 years ago. I would have been having a (quiet) blast. 

I like the way you think.  Solar panel on the roof charging your plane.  In the morning wheel it out, check controls are free and correct, and off you go.  An hour some days would be fantastic - if you don't want to go cross country then it'd be ample.

[kasper]

13 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Do you have any details of these in a size that might be suitable for a Drifter or Trike size aircraft?

I’m going lifepo4 for cost/flammability concerns. They can if ruptured and shorted vent gas under pressure and burn BUT they are not like other lithium chemistries on risk. 
 

im going for a 48v 16 cell setup for 14.59kwh capacity.  It’s heavy but with the bms and all custom connections and boxes it comes in at 88kg and will only fly me for an est. 2hrs. 
 

the engine, controller, cables etc come in at 9kg so my power plant swap will see 47kg replaced with 97kg … I’m adding 50kg of weight and losing 1hr of range but for pootling around at 50mph I am happy enough.  
 

the shed here has 6.5kw of solar on it and it’s easy to cut the current off grid system into the plane and extend the battery - I’ll use it as system storage In the plane when I’m not flying and will get a Couple of hours flying a week out of it for no cost from the grid.  
 

im a cheap skate - the shed off grid system is recycled from old bits collected from solar installers replacing systems and has cost only $400 plus the electricians fees to have the lot signed off.  
 

im doing solar on a reduce reuse and recycle basis only for the ground based system.  
 

everything in the plane is to my mind hideously expensive but it’s going in an airframe that has no real value and  it’s my demonstration of system that I might then refine and redo in later years as I wear out the IC engines on the other aircraft I have. 

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by kasper

[kasper]

11 hours ago, kgwilson said:

The BYD blade battery is not a good shape to power aircraft. It is 905mm long x 118 wide & 13.5 high (thick), 3.2 volts with a capacity of 202 Ah. The Tesla type of battery of multiple cells in 18650 (18mm x 650mm), 21700 & 46800 sizes can easily be configured in to shapes that fit a given volume. 18650 Li-ion batteries have been around for a fair while now but the improved LiFeP04 type it is safer as it won't explode or catch fire like standard Li-ion, it is cobalt free, can be discharged fully without degradation & recharged 3-5000 times. but has lower energy density that Li-ion.

 

In any aircraft application weight is the main problem.

Don’t forget that lithium batteries - most chemistries - are solid state batteries and can be mounted in any orientation. Laying a 13.5cm battery on its side and making a LONG battery box that runs the batteries out into the wing will work.  Allows the weight to be designed into the airframe at a nice position for core cofg management and weight Int eh wings can be nice to help with structural loads as it can assist with lower bending moments to design to at the wing/fuselage connections. 

[spacesailor]

 Just looked at a 35kw brushless motor, but there was no voltage mentioned.

How do you find the right battery to fit a dc motor, without the manufacturer stating , volts.

Mp 238 50. Max amps 350. Weight 15 kg.

Old  i C  motor weighs in 35 kilo,s & 33 kw,s, plus fuel & tank.

So

Leaves lots of weight for batteries. To bring the CG  to were it should be. 

And get rid of the shift in C G as fuel burns off in flight.

spacesailor

Edited May 24, 2022 by spacesailor
More added

[kasper]

18 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

 Just looked at a 35kw brushless motor, but there was no voltage mentioned.

How do you find the right battery to fit a dc motor, without the manufacturer stating , volts.

Mp 238 50. Max amps 350. Weight 15 kg.

spacesailor

If you wander around alibaba for electric motors scrolls down and the details are there

 

Model No: MP238/50 70KV brushless motor 

Max voltage: 100V 

Max current: 350A 

Rated current: 170A 

No load current: 12..2A 

Resistance: 0.0052ohm 

Dimension: 238mm*50mm 

Weight: 5kg 

ESC: 120V 500A 

Thrust: 85kg-90kg 

Propeller: 4213 or 5095 carbon fiber propeller

 

and the real challenge is to get a really good esc to control the motor.  Core motors are relatively simple manufacturing challenges and quality does not cost a lot in a motor.  

and 15kg for this output is really heavy.  That power output for a well designed outrunner should be half of that at worst.  This list from alibaba shows it at 5kg which is believable 

 

the controller on the other hand is a nightmare of electronic unicorn dust covered magic … unless you are THAT one forum member who could design and knock one up with one hand behind his back.  
 

a good controller has to both be designed well and manufactured well or you are a very heavy glider far too often for my liking.  
 

cheers

Edited May 24, 2022 by kasper

[spacesailor]

 100 volts max!. 

That means lots of 3.7 v , or half that with 7.2 v X 14 for the max takeoff power.

It puts the retail price of battery,s into the crazy bin.

spacesailor

[kasper]

3 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

 100 volts max!. 

That means lots of 3.7 v , or half that with 7.2 v X 14 for the max takeoff power.

It puts the retail price of battery,s into the crazy bin.

spacesailor

Not really.  The V into the motor is the V out of the controller not the V out of the battery.  
 

it’s entirely possible to have a 48v battery run a 100v motor … not the most efficient but it can be done.  
 

my set up is 48v all through and it’s reasonably efficient electrically speaking … just not efficient $$$$ wise because it’s three times the cost of an IC Paramotor engine of the same power.   It’s just smoother, quieter and less polluting at pint of use.  

[FlyBoy1960]

just asking, why do you think you can get away with a 48 V motor/battery when everybody else in the electrics is using nearly 10 times this voltage as a minimum ?

[kasper]

2 hours ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

just asking, why do you think you can get away with a 48 V motor/battery when everybody else in the electrics is using nearly 10 times this voltage as a minimum ?

It’s not a matter of getting away with anything.  I’ve set a $ budget to achieve a system of x kw power with y kwh of storage.

 

the system I’m going with meets my specs of need so 👍

 

I did seriously consider a twin rotomax 150 set up but the cost of two controllers and motors pushed the drive component to nearly as much as the battery/bms/charge half and I’m not spending that much.  

[spacesailor]

Another Not so dumb question ?.

Is there an online site to get All our knowledge from !.

If a 100 v motor will fun on 1/2 that volts, why not a lesser v to land with, instead of expensive Amp escapement 

IE battery disconnect switich, All on takeoff power , 1/2 off cruise, 1/4 of batteries to land., & one bank to idle the prop.

Then of course that B M S will charge them All back to normal full charge

That should be a backyard shed project. Even tho they will be staggered in getting to Full charge.

spacesailor