Electric Rag and Tube

[facthunter]

They had to teach themselves to fly at the same time as they had to  see if their plane would fly. It could also be banked. It's a pretty big deal by any measure. Nev

[facthunter]

A few "copies" have had flights with Normal and experienced modern pilots and they usually end up slipping sideways  and crashing, There's NO keel surface so that is understandable.. Nev

[walrus]

As with everything it is LOGISTICS that counts be it Covid19 or electric vehicles. In fact electric powered vehicles can easily be more versatile and higher performance than IC engine vehicles - and that includes (propeller)  aircraft.

 

 

The problem is the logistics of getting volts and amps to the motor - ie batteries, fuel cells or storage media. Power generation and distribution.

 

The example quoted to me was Britian - it uses something like 1 TwH annually for domestic use and 2 TwH for transport in the form of liquid fuels. So you see the scale of the problem - triple electric energy production and distribution to replace liquid hydrocarbons.

 

Visit any petrol station on the Hume or Pacific freeways. Look at the volume of traffic at the pumps. Now imagine if each has to take 30 minutes to charge. Can you see the problem? Then can you see the size of the mega voltage, ultra high amperage power lines joining each station to some super power station? We don't have the grid technology, battery technology, network topology let alone operating rules, legal, financial or safety infrastructure.......yet

 

 

 

[jackc]

Just imagine IF the power grid went down for even an hour over a wide area.

The queue for chargers wherever that happened could be big.

Many people with EVs probably dont keep the battery topped up all the time, because they think they can get a charge anytime they need it.

Likewise ICE drivers, who run on empty all the time.

The battery swappers are always going to run their battery to the last as they get no credit for any zappies left in the battery they want to swap.

Thats why my Landcruisers all have long range fuel tanks and I keep them over half full most of the time.

[facthunter]

IF we didn't adjust you'd still be walking or in a horse and cart. When I was a kid most people couldn't afford kids shoes let alone a  car. Plenty of cars cross this Country on trains.  Over two tons carrying average two people and a caravan bigger than some houses may not be for the masses.. . Nev

[octave]

37 minutes ago, walrus said:

Visit any petrol station on the Hume or Pacific freeways. Look at the volume of traffic at the pumps. Now imagine if each has to take 30 minutes to charge. Can you see the problem?

 

I can see that with 2021 infrastructure it would be difficult to support the number of EVs expected to be on the road by 2035.  Infrastructure usually has to keep up with new technologies.  We are not taking about an overnight change.  Although people do make long trips in EVs it may well be that for the foreseeable future a driver who travels interstate may feel an EV is not for them.     Most EV owners charge at home overnight for probably 95% of there journeys.   

12 minutes ago, jackc said:

Just imagine IF the power grid went down for even an hour over a wide area.

 

Yep,  no petrol from electrically powered fuel pumps.

[kasper]

27 minutes ago, walrus said:

As with everything it is LOGISTICS that counts be it Covid19 or electric vehicles. In fact electric powered vehicles can easily be more versatile and higher performance than IC engine vehicles - and that includes (propeller)  aircraft.

 

 

The problem is the logistics of getting volts and amps to the motor - ie batteries, fuel cells or storage media. Power generation and distribution.

 

The example quoted to me was Britian - it uses something like 1 TwH annually for domestic use and 2 TwH for transport in the form of liquid fuels. So you see the scale of the problem - triple electric energy production and distribution to replace liquid hydrocarbons.

 

Visit any petrol station on the Hume or Pacific freeways. Look at the volume of traffic at the pumps. Now imagine if each has to take 30 minutes to charge. Can you see the problem? Then can you see the size of the mega voltage, ultra high amperage power lines joining each station to some super power station? We don't have the grid technology, battery technology, network topology let alone operating rules, legal, financial or safety infrastructure.......yet

 

 

 

But we are not looking at the practical needs in OZ for EVs:

Firstly 75% of all cars live and run around cities for the vast majority of their operational lives - these could convert to EV on existing battery ranges - the reasons they are not are policy based and are covered off in an earlier post on this thread

Other countries are looking at - and have implemented - extender systems to allow long range adds to existing batteries - see France and the leases towed extended battery system that is in use (admittedly limited) - picture blow - that will allow those 75% of cars to extend significantly - That pic is of a range of 900km at highway and that's available now with an ability to re-charge trailer battery packs at times/speeds that fit with electric availability but allow changeover in minutes - same or better speed than petrol pumping on the hume highway 😉

 

And you are comparing apples and oranges when you look at the TwH in liquid fuel vs EV direct electric - you get a shed load more KM per TwH of direct electric than you do on a TwH of liquid fuel.

 

So there is no reason other than policy and already available systems that would facilitate switch over of liquid fuel passenger cards to electric for more than 75% of the Australian population. 

 

The 25% who live outside cities are more challenging as on average their km travels in total and per trip are higher and on std battery packs will require more frequent charging ... moderate infrastructure in towns car parks and/or modification to user behaviors (eg charge overnight every night at home) can address it for many in this group.

 

Factually there are options available now to address many of the practical issues with the ability to switch operations to EV for the vast majority of use of the private car in Australia and the single biggest blockage to the move is the policy and support frameworks that are not there due to political decisions at the federal level of government.  

 

 

 

 

[octave]

I don't really understand the animosity towards EVs.  If you don't like them then don't buy one.  I think most car manufacturers have announced end dates for IC car production at around the 2035.  This means in 2034 you can buy a shiny new IC car and keep it for as long as you want.    I think the biggest factor in the changeover will be more determined by cost rather than legislation.  

 

 

[turboplanner]

4 hours ago, Cosmick said:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-04-20/australians-want-to-buy-electric-cars-what-is-stopping-us/100071550

1.2 litre ICE young people's/retirees little car - $20,000, MG $46,000 - Extra cost $26,000    That's probably the simple explanation.

 

What should be ringing alarm bess and causing outrage is this:

"Meanwhile, 75 per cent of new car sales by 2030 need to be electric for Australia to achieve net zero emissions by 2035, according to the latest report by the Climate Council."

 

There are only 19.8 million cars in Australia (reg at 31/1/20) - and they only produce 5% of CO2 emissions.................................

 

So why do THEY have to carry the burden for the 95% non-automotive emissions?

 

[jackc]

3 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

1.2 litre ICE young people's/retirees little car - $20,000, MG $46,000 - Extra cost $26,000    That's probably the simple explanation.

 

What should be ringing alarm bess and causing outrage is this:

"Meanwhile, 75 per cent of new car sales by 2030 need to be electric for Australia to achieve net zero emissions by 2035, according to the latest report by the Climate Council."

 

There are only 19.8 million cars in Australia (reg at 31/1/20) - and they only produce 5% of CO2 emissions.................................

 

So why do THEY have to carry the burden for the 95% non-automotive emissions?

 

What they NEED and what they GET will be 2 different things.

ANY ideas will all go out the door If and or we have a war.

Our Govt had its chance to foster our EV industry with the closing of GMH and Mitsubishis infrastructure.

MG? bought a long standing company name and using it to sell their Chinese junk at big prices.   I would walk/ride a Camel before I got one of those at half price, on principle 😞

[octave]

2 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

1.2 litre ICE young people's/retirees little car - $20,000, MG $46,000 - Extra cost $26,000    That's probably the simple explanation.

 I wouldn't argue with this and I think at the lower end of the market EVs are at the moment overpriced but to do a full and fair comparison you have to factor in running costs such as fuel and maintenance.     An EV most definitely has higher up front cost and this is a deterrent.  It is often the case that those with a little more disposable income are in a better position to invest in technology that will save them money over its lifetime.   An example would be investing in rooftop solar, a case of upfront costs vs lower power cost over future years.

 

Speaking of solar, my rooftop produces an excess of power.   I sell (for a poor return) 1.5MWh per annum  back to the grid.  If I did own an EV I know where I would be putting this excess power>

[kgwilson]

29 minutes ago, kasper said:

The 25% who live outside cities are more challenging as on average their km travels in total and per trip are higher and on std battery packs will require more frequent charging ... moderate infrastructure in towns car parks and/or modification to user behaviors (eg charge overnight every night at home) can address it for many in this group.

Less than 10% of the population lives outside of the cities. There is the common misconception that Australians drive long distances. Some do but the average Australian drives fewer kms per year than the average Kiwi.

 

Cars may only produce 5% of the CO2 but they also produce a lot of other pollutants. Our biggest polluters are coal fired power stations and heavy industry but heavy diesel vehicles produce a lot as well.

 

The doubters keep going on about current drawbacks but these are being addressed at an astonishing rate. We have a government that is out of step with the way the world is moving and if we don't hurry up and get on board we will be shunned by everyone else and shamed into action. We may only produce 1.2% of the worlds emissions but on a per capita basis we are one of the worst. If you take into account the emissions from our exports of coal etc and with current government policy we will be responsible for 17% of global emissions by 2030. We are running out of polluting friends. Trump was an emissions junkie but Biden is the opposite.

 

Morrison & Co keep harping on about the cost in jobs. There is no point in keeping people employed in industries that will disappear everywhere else in the world.

[jackc]

Ask QR/Aurizon WHY they are running Diesel Loco coal trains on our electrified rail network in Qld.

People would argue, they dont care...why should we?

[spacesailor]

" I don't really understand the animosity towards EV "

Because it's forever pushed down our throat.

England !,No ICE cars by 2050. Shame for the Vintage car drivers. No were to use their dream machine !.

!0 % outside city's. What of those ' Grey Nomads '

AND I,  Only drive for pleasure, Very LOW mileage annually. because it's long trips, to go Somewhere.

Owned my Delica 14 years, for only 100, 1000 Klms , will be Low Ks when sold, But High years.

Son-in-law Over 100,000 klms per year For work !.  

Give me a $ 80,000  car, That price IS a life times fuel. ( On average ownership. )

solar panels for the 80 year olds, when will we see any return on that investment ?.

spacesailor

 

[Garfly]

 

SAID HANRAHAN

"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,

In accents most forlorn,

Outside the church, ere Mass began,

One frosty Sunday morn.

The congregation stood about,

Coat-collars to the ears,

And talked of stock, and crops, and drought,

As it had done for years.

"It's lookin' crook," said Daniel Croke;

"Bedad, it's cruke, me lad,

For never since the banks went broke

Has seasons been so bad."

"It's dry, all right," said young O'Neil,

With which astute remark

He squatted down upon his heel

And chewed a piece of bark.

And so around the chorus ran

"It's keepin' dry, no doubt."

"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,

"Before the year is out.

"The crops are done; ye'll have your work

To save one bag of grain;

From here way out to Back-o'-Bourke

They're singin' out for rain.

"They're singin' out for rain," he said,

"And all the tanks are dry."

The congregation scratched its head,

And gazed around the sky.

"There won't be grass, in any case,

Enough to feed an ass;

There's not a blade on Casey's place

As I came down to Mass."

"If rain don't come this month," said Dan,

And cleared his throat to speak--

"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,

"If rain don't come this week."

A heavy silence seemed to steal

On all at this remark;

And each man squatted on his heel,

And chewed a piece of bark.

"We want a inch of rain, we do,"

O'Neil observed at last;

But Croke "maintained" we wanted two

To put the danger past.

"If we don't get three inches, man,

Or four to break this drought,

We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,

"Before the year is out."

In God's good time down came the rain;

And all the afternoon

On iron roof and window-pane

It drummed a homely tune.

And through the night it pattered still,

And lightsome, gladsome elves

On dripping spout and window-sill

Kept talking to themselves.

It pelted, pelted all day long,

A-singing at its work,

Till every heart took up the song

Way out to Back-o'Bourke.

And every creek a banker ran,

And dams filled overtop;

"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,

"If this rain doesn't stop."

And stop it did, in God's good time;

And spring came in to fold

A mantle o'er the hills sublime

Of green and pink and gold.

And days went by on dancing feet,

With harvest-hopes immense,

And laughing eyes beheld the wheat

Nid-nodding o'er the fence.

And, oh, the smiles on every face,

As happy lad and lass

Through grass knee-deep on Casey's place

Went riding down to Mass.

While round the church in clothes genteel

Discoursed the men of mark,

And each man squatted on his heel,

And chewed his piece of bark.

"There'll be bush-fires for sure, me man,

There will, without a doubt;

We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,

"Before the year is out."

John O'Brien

[RFguy]

getting a bit off topic

 

[Garfly]

Ha, ha ... what was that topic again?  (At least Kasper got it  ;- )

[Thruster88]

If we look at the electrification of model aircraft did it require government intervention?  Would it have been better if the government had interfered?  Did it just happen when the technology and cost was agreeable to the consumer? 

[spacesailor]

thruster

The electric flyers won,t tolerate IC motor planes on their turf.

It,s not the noise, as l hear those over reving planes from three blokes away.

spacesailor

[facthunter]

Communities demand no  other types allowed  plus stops fuel soaked planes falling apart . I failed to click this back a bit but now you have it anyhow 

  We had compressed air ones you could pump the tank up with a tyre Pump  and a drop of oil on the piston and let her go.  (free flight). Gotta get your exercise somehow.  Nev

Edited April 20, 2021 by facthunter

[jackc]

1 minute ago, facthunter said:

Communities demand no  other types allowed  plus stops fuel soaked planes falling apart  Nev

Fortunately I live in the bush so I don’t need to worry about snowflake/cupcake woke communities 🙂

[facthunter]

Watch out for the Rainbow Serpent then. Life isn't meant to be easy.  Don't you get Taipans up there? I'll swap you a Tiger snake for one or a tin of redbacks. always useful.

  Don't think I could stand to live in the "Burbs" quite frankly. A fate worse than death. Nev

Edited April 20, 2021 by facthunter

[spacesailor]

We have ' redbelly black snakes ' here in Toongabbie, don,t annoy them,  they won,t annoy you,

Just keep that covic ' distance ' , 'she,l be right '.

Right 

spacesailor

[jackc]

Got a visit at the shed the other day while working on the plane, a nice looking purebred Dingo came for a look at a short distance, namely the water trough.

Taipans?   I just let them know they must knock before they come indoors 🙂

[kgwilson]

Just to compare different attitudes to the EV revolution. A lot of these are free to use so makes going on a trip pretty cheap. Most people though just plug in the car in the garage when they get home from work on a daily basis & never go near a charging station.

 

As of the end of March 2021 Waka Kotahi New Zealand Transport Agency’s EVRoam journey planner lists 290 EV charging stations that conform to its official guidelines, while there are more than 350 free or paid AC and DC chargers registered on the PlugShare website.

The country’s largest network, ChargeNet, has 158 DC rapid charging stations in the North Island and 94 in the South Island, and recently installed a pair of 300kW Hyperchargers in Auckland – the first of its kind and the fastest publicly available chargers in New Zealand – at the motorway service centre at Bombay at the end of Auckland’s Southern Motorway. Their installation was also supported by an EECA grant from the Low Emission Vehicles Contestable Fund.

The company plans to install another 300kW Hypercharger in Taupo’s CBD, with plans to add seven more across four locations – Kaiwaka, Bulls, Christchurch and Auckland’s North Shore.

New vehicle distributors also continue to offer charging options to the buyers of their cars, with the likes of Audi offering 50kW chargers at all of its dealerships, as well as rolling out 175kW DC fast chargers at a number of them.

 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by kgwilson