Electric Rag and Tube

[facthunter]

Octave it's about 1/2 the rego  and probably less than you would pay in fuel excise. That's for 15,000 kms Nev

[facthunter]

The demand for airconditioning on hot days probably starts at about 1400. The cooling is the big usage  Nev

[turboplanner]

9 minutes ago, octave said:

To be clear I have no problem with every user paying for road infrastructure.  I think $375 a year would be a significant contribution.

What do you think you are paying now?

[octave]

Just now, turboplanner said:

What do you think you are paying now?

 

I have absolutely no problem with EV drivers paying and equivalent amount what ever that is.   Bit of a non issue. Just pointing out that even if it is not yet enough it surely still would be considered significant if not equal.    I am most definitely not arguing for a free kick for EV owners in terms of tax.  

[kasper]

OK.

 

ICE engines are just plain awful at efficiently converting stored energy into work - but they are the dominant technology and the fuel is very EASY to store and the distribution infrastructure is in place.

 

As an example of how terribly inefficient it is here is my diesel car in terms of kw to do work.

5.8L/100km, average speed runs around 80kph (mostly highway)

I pay 47.2c/L excise so I fund the roads at around $0.275/km

But that 5.8L of diesel is very energy dense - its around 36.5Mjoule/L so converting that to watt hours I am using around 55.7Kwh of energy to do 100km

 

Now look at an equivalent EV - the one I looked at has 180km range at highway cycle on 24kw battery ... that is 13.3kwh of energy to do 100km ... that is 4 times the efficiency of the diesel ... and even factoring in the losses in generating and distributing the electricity its still very efficient but of course nobody talks about all the embedded energy used to 'generate' and distribute the diesel so I am sticking to the 4x efficiency of direct electric motor to do work over an 'efficient' diesel.

 

If Governments want to change the charging for road infrastructure from excise on liquid fuel to a km rate and base that rate on GVM I am perfectly happy to do that.

 

But back to electrics in recreational aircraft - The practical problems are:

1. direct cost to install a system equal in power compared to an ICE

2. the low energy density in batteries compared to liquid fuel to deliver the same or acceptable range within low weights

 

For the foreseeable future I see that electric recreational airframes are going to have very limited range (1-1.5hrs) and will cost a premium on ICE systems.

 

The price premium could be addressed through subsidy to support an environmental outcome but I see that as unlikely due to current policy in govt and even if policy were to be reversed the primary area of subsidy/penalty of ICE would be in passenger vehicles so recreational aircraft are left working it out or accepting the cost ... but there are second hand battery systems coming out of EVs now that are very low cost ... rec flying started with recycled VWs so who wants to repurpose a Nissan Leaf or Tesla battery pack - they are available at really quite low cost compared to new batteries?

 

On the range limits we I think have to accept that this is going to be our lot for the foreseeable future.  Limited range.  But to be honest what was the actual endurance of a T500 582 Thruster on its standard tank?  same question of the R503 or r582 drifters on their standard tank?  Its only in the last 20 years with CAO 95.55 that we have been allowed MTOW in rec aircraft that have allowed the installed weight of the R912 and weight to carry all that lovely energy dense fuel ... go back and look at what was available in 1990 and that is pretty much the endurance we can hope for (at greater speed and comfort) from a current electric rec plane.

 

[facthunter]

It's probably good for a self launching glider and if the skin was a solar surface gives you a bit better chance of avoiding an outlanding on a cross country Jaunt. Nev

[turboplanner]

18 hours ago, jackc said:

No we don’t, but in making a submission......you do the core submission and then you have variables you may need to use in negotiating a workable outcome.

Now, you never send a submission in.......it gets circulated, laughed at and gives the receiver a chance to apply negative decisions with little consultation.

So, you make an appointment with the key person simply saying you want to discuss some aspects of Aviation etc.  You could have a report to submit.

to that key person.  It’s not hard to make a plan and IF you get a knock back then it’s up to using the skills of negotiation get a foot in the right door.

Start with RAAus and see where it leads, may have to knock on CASA’s door?

May need involve a politician?   

I wonder if we have any RAAus or CASA lurkers here, snickering to themselves 🙂

 

The RAA Inc Members gave up their one on one rights in order to hand all that over to a Limited Company. Today RAA Members are shareholders and the Company does all that.

[kasper]

30 minutes ago, facthunter said:

It's probably good for a self launching glider and if the skin was a solar surface gives you a bit better chance of avoiding an outlanding on a cross country Jaunt. Nev

Practical problems with current technology ...  putting aside weight of the cells solar cells generally available run at a max of 285w/m^2 and that is with optimal angle to sun.

 

The sapphire needs 13kw to cruise around in still air - its not a great glider but its pretty good for an ultralight.  To fully power the cruise requirements of the Sapphire will require around 45m^2 of optimally oriented solar cells ... the sapphire has 9m^2 of wing and at best would contribute 20% of cruise power but realistically only around 10% so would need to carry in addition to the solar sufficient battery capacity to cover 90% of the planned range ... the installed weight of additional battery to cover that solar panel contribution would be a very minor fraction of the installed weigh of the panels.

 

Realistically we will see second hand lower efficiency panels (165-200w panels) parked on top of aircraft hangars where their mass is not critical and they can top up aircraft batteries and feed into grids etc.

 

Even if there weight of the panels in the airframe were not to be an issue they would only give you 1 hour of flight for 10 hours of sitting on the ground in the sun as a stand alone from flat battery position.

[kgwilson]

If the governments around Australia were serious about reducing emissions they would be offering subsidies on both the purchase price of EV vehicles and the operating costs which includes the roading infrastructure. This would be for a limited time frame and during that time the purchase price would fall at least and then they could begin to charge to offset the roading infrastructure.

 

This is exactly what happened in the rooftop solar industry. Originally it cost over 10k for a 1.5 kW system and it was heavily subsidised. They were then paying you 65c per kWH for all the power you produced including the amount you used and then at the end of each quarter most people got a cheque for what they owed you. Now the subsidies have gone but a 6.5 kW system costs under 4k and you get between 5 & 10c per kWH you sell back to the grid.

[jackc]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

The RAA Inc Members gave up their one on one rights in order to hand all that over to a Limited Company. Today RAA Members are shareholders and the Company does all that.

Anything that has been done......can be UNDONE.  It depends on how much time and effort needed to be invested......

[facthunter]

A sapphire IS a plane that flys with reduced power and that's with a drag causing muffler in the breeze  Don't forget there is NO engine. muffler or fuel  other than the electric one you use just for take-off in the self launching glider.  Extra weight doesn't affect L/D ratio much . You just glide faster as you do with ballast on board. Nev.

[jackc]

14 minutes ago, facthunter said:

A sapphire IS a plane that flys with reduced power and that's with a drag causing muffler in the breeze  Don't forget there is NO engine. muffler or fuel  other than the electric one you use just for take-off in the self launching glider.  Extra weight doesn't affect L/D ratio much . You just glide faster as you do with ballast on board. Nev.

https://www.ruppert-composite.ch/en/

[turboplanner]

55 minutes ago, jackc said:

Anything that has been done......can be UNDONE.  It depends on how much time and effort needed to be invested......

Yes, quite correct.

[kasper]

1 hour ago, jackc said:

https://www.ruppert-composite.ch/en/

But when a foot launch three axis hang glider has a AU$25,000 engine added and will cost in excess of $125k landed in Australia I think we are not talking about the real world of recreational flyers.

[spacesailor]

All vehicles pay for roads !?

WRONG!  Cyclist pay Nothing !.

And are exempt from the Normal laws, on ' seat belts ' carrying passengers in trailers, compulsory third party insurance and registration.

Why bring weight into the rules for EV vehicles paying milage tax ?.

Thats the trick that killed the Steam car !.

spacesailor

[jackc]

17 minutes ago, kasper said:

But when a foot launch three axis hang glider has a AU$25,000 engine added and will cost in excess of $125k landed in Australia I think we are not talking about the real world of recreational flyers.

That is one machine, Aerolite 103 have priced their new electric model, Phantomaero have one under development and I bet in 12 months you will see a raft of new models from the FAR Part 103 makers in the U.S.

 

[kasper]

21 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

All vehicles pay for roads !?

WRONG!  Cyclist pay Nothing !.

And are exempt from the Normal laws, on ' seat belts ' carrying passengers in trailers, compulsory third party insurance and registration.

Why bring weight into the rules for EV vehicles paying milage tax ?.

Thats the trick that killed the Steam car !.

spacesailor

But if you are looking at charging for use based on the damage they do rot the roadway then gvm is important.  It already exists in practice as excise is more per km the larger the vehicle gvm as they have larger engines and more l/100km.  
 

once there is a fair basis of charge for use you then can overlay policy adjustment to address additional outcomes desired - increase the charge for ICE engines to cover their additional environmental ‘Costs’ to the country or alternate apply a discount to non-ICE engines to reflect a lower impact on the environment.

[turboplanner]

36 minutes ago, kasper said:

But if you are looking at charging for use based on the damage they do rot the roadway then gvm is important.  It already exists in practice as excise is more per km the larger the vehicle gvm as they have larger engines and more l/100km.  
 

once there is a fair basis of charge for use you then can overlay policy adjustment to address additional outcomes desired - increase the charge for ICE engines to cover their additional environmental ‘Costs’ to the country or alternate apply a discount to non-ICE engines to reflect a lower impact on the environment.

That might start a few questions about whether temperature is lagging CO2 or CO2 is lagging temperature, and what an increase in temperature of the magical 1.5 degrees which was first touted in the early part of the first decade of this century would mean, given that Sydney is roughly 1.5 degrees hoter than Melbourne and Brisbane is about 1.5 degrees hotter than Sydney, and so on, and the measurements for what has happened since say 2000.

[nomadpete]

5 hours ago, kasper said:

If Governments want to change the charging for road infrastructure from excise on liquid fuel to a km rate and base that rate on GVM I am perfectly happy to do that.

Just picking up on the Discourse on Victoria's proposed mileage tax for electric vehicles.....

As proposed, it is a clear disincentive to EV users.

 

If they want to implement this tax in its present proposed form, they will cop a beating.

 

If they want to revise vehicle registration costs wholesale, and I suggest it is a good idea to do so, all they have to do to gain acceptance, is to charge ALL vehicles a tax per kilometer (relative also to GVM).

 

It should fit in with the right wing concept of 'user pays'.

 

Why should my mother-in-law pay the same car registration as me, when she only does a few thousand k per year but I do 30,000k per year? Clearly she shouldn't have to shoulder as much expense toward road maintenance as me?

[turboplanner]

9 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

Just picking up on the Discourse on Victoria's proposed mileage tax for electric vehicles.....

As proposed, it is a clear disincentive to EV users.

 

If they want to implement this tax in its present proposed form, they will cop a beating.

 

If they want to revise vehicle registration costs wholesale, and I suggest it is a good idea to do so, all they have to do to gain acceptance, is to charge ALL vehicles a tax per kilometer (relative also to GVM).

 

It should fit in with the right wing concept of 'user pays'.

 

Why should my mother-in-law pay the same car registration as me, when she only does a few thousand k per year but I do 30,000k per year? Clearly she shouldn't have to shoulder as much expense toward road maintenance as me?

I don’t have the exact facts but that’s basically what happens now.

[danny_galaga]

35 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

Just picking up on the Discourse on Victoria's proposed mileage tax for electric vehicles.....

As proposed, it is a clear disincentive to EV users.

 

If they want to implement this tax in its present proposed form, they will cop a beating.

 

If they want to revise vehicle registration costs wholesale, and I suggest it is a good idea to do so, all they have to do to gain acceptance, is to charge ALL vehicles a tax per kilometer (relative also to GVM).

 

It should fit in with the right wing concept of 'user pays'.

 

Why should my mother-in-law pay the same car registration as me, when she only does a few thousand k per year but I do 30,000k per year? Clearly she shouldn't have to shoulder as much expense toward road maintenance as me?

I agree with your sentiment but car registration (like RA AUS) is mostly for insurance, not road maintenance. 

[jackc]

11 minutes ago, danny_galaga said:

I agree with your sentiment but car registration (like RA AUS) is mostly for insurance, not road maintenance. 

Years ago third party nominal defendant insurance was looked after by State Govt Insurance Offices, then it was privatised.......and we are being ripped off as usual 😞

[Cosmick]

Hyundai Kona, ICE starts at $29000, EV starts at $67000

[octave]

3 minutes ago, Cosmick said:

Hyundai Kona, ICE starts at $29000, EV starts at $67000

plus running costs, petrol Vs electricity

[danny_galaga]

8 hours ago, octave said:

plus running costs, petrol Vs electricity

This gives a ball park on three years running costs. He saved more than some because Tesla have some perks but it still gives an idea.