Vans RV-7 crash, S of Charters Towers 23/04/2021

[Mike Gearon]

On 02/05/2021 at 3:52 PM, APenNameAndThatA said:

One good thing is that you can cut the throttle while you are working out what is going on. It is the first step for spins and spirals. (Disclaimer: I have 120 hours.)

 

Going on hours I have 119.6 and correspondingly less informed 🙂 Condolences to Rays family. I tell mine I try really hard to be safe and if something terrible happened it’d be okay. My favourite personal pursuit life experience... learning to fly, overcoming the odds each time as they stacked up against continued pursuit of flying. The people you fly with as you progress, each experience a special bond together in the cockpit, new friends who come with their experience and their aircraft, all the aspects of the experience coming together when you’re up high on your own and in control and confident in yourself and the aircraft.

 

Spin....TARE or PARE Throttle/ power idle, aelirons neutral, rudder opposite spin then gently recover elevation. (Likely doesn’t need to be so gentle, more making sure the same type of response will be drummed in so I’ll treat spiral with proper respect in altitude recovery.

 

Spin slow so act on above after a glance at the airspeed.

 

Spiral fast so airspeed and/ or air noise quickly confirming. Both respond with throttle off, spiral is wings level as aeliron activity, gently regain altitude. 
 

Spin and spiral not too different a recovery with likely no rudder involved in spiral. 
 

I’ve written the above as a personal refresher after checking bold method. Certainly had TARE drummed in hard during training.

[kgwilson]

Possibly the biggest issue is that generally there will be no intention of going IMC but once it happens logic can be replaced with panic. Once that happens the brain cannot function logically. Many years ago I listened to a radio transmission between a pilot who was in IMC and ATC. The pilot became totally panicked and just kept screaming Mayday ,Mayday, Mayday. ATC calmly but forcefully said "You are in a spin, release the controls" a number of times to no avail. Then silence. The panic had set in and nothing was going to save the pilot then.

[Mike Gearon]

I had 3 hours of IFR training as part of USA process. Also actual IFR conditions while interstate and observing for some 60 minutes how the aircraft was handled.

 

My CFI consistently warned against having the slightest confidence I’d survive more than 30 seconds in IFR as a proven fact. Still, I value the possibility that all turning to crap totally outside my control I’d have some chance of a gentle 180 degree turn and exit the conditions. Main take home I had was to just have a thumb and finger on the yoke/ stick with very little pressure and just scan instruments constantly. 

[poteroo]

28 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

Possibly the biggest issue is that generally there will be no intention of going IMC but once

.................. and @ 150-160 KIAS, you are into cloud very, very quickly. At this speed, it's likely to be rough air flight, and that certainly upsets the balance of the non- IFR pilot.  Slowing the RV aircraft down to 90 kts reduces the rough ride, and allows for a less frightening turnback.

[facthunter]

Mike saying spin spiral not too DIFFERENT really? Let me tell you That is not the way to handle it. .I've taught his stuff and it's not THAT easy.

 Spin entries can be near vertical entry and quick. The spiral demo and recovery are not permitted in RAAus and let me say in some planes you have seconds to recover it from a spiral. That's all.

     I've ALWAYS advocated recovery from unusual attitudes training which must be done in something other than a RAAus plane.

  It should be mandated for any Instructor at least and encouraged for everyone else. Many of our planes require more skill to fly than GA types where the bugs have been ironed out and there's less variation plane to plane. Being generally smaller requires refined control inputs as well. . Nev

[RFguy]

how about an inverted spiral and recovery of that?  that's one to surely stand your hair up. I guess inverted spin, also get you going....

[facthunter]

If you muck up a normal spin recovery with too much forward stick you may end up spinning inverted. Spirals are mostly likely at night or in cloud. (No horizon). Since most pilots don't naturally push the stick forward when panicked  the chances of getting into either a spin or a spiral  inverted are  pretty remote (in my opinion) except by my first Para.  Note recovery from a spin is very VARIED  from actually falling out of it by itself to being totally unpredictable  as to if it will come out at all by any possible technique.. IF your plane permits intentional spins the PARTICULAR technique will be stipulated in the POH.. If the plane is placarded  intentional spins NOT permitted. it doesn't  mean it won't spin. Just that it hasn't been tested and approved so it may not recover at all for all you know.. Nev

Edited May 4, 2021 by facthunter

[Mike Gearon]

 

My flying experience is at the opposite end of yours. What I’m attempting right now is to apply that limited knowledge to the correct response to an unexpected aircraft situation. 

 

I stand by my post with this consideration. Prior to taking off I’ve recited the plan for EFATO. I also have the invaluable accumulated CFI unexpected closing of throttle. For the better part I’ve performed well. Once badly and suggested a turn back. That was the best experience of all “you’ve just killed us” was very memorable.

 

I haven’t experienced spin or spiral other than the dip of a wing after climbing stall practice. CFI and I both applying all right rudder in a memorable example.

 

 I believe I need stored in my back pocket of planned actions a spin and spiral recovery plan as I’ve suggested. I won’t be reciting them prior to each take off... although that being said I’m imprinting during this discussion a much better understanding and plan...

 

So, out of the blue I’m finding myself in a spin or spiral..100% first is throttle off, do something with the aelirons, definitely neutral first then refine, elevator definitely isn’t going to be jerked forward or backward, I’d expect built in reaction will or would be slightly forward, start looking to rudder neutral and check speed and what’s actually going on and rudder opposite spin if this is established.

 

If inverted I have no clue. I’d just relax and let it sort itself out or not. Seriously, without reviewing google or anything back here in the forum I’d hands off for a bit and see how she looked. Absolutely no point in messing with controls without a clue why. Now, I won’t edit this. We will see how it pans out. I’m basing this on the fact aircraft flying if you leave them alone, motorbikes in a tank slapper fix themselves if you take your hands off the handlebars and hold the tank. (Mostly)

 

20 hours ago, facthunter said:

Mike saying spin spiral not too DIFFERENT really? Let me tell you That is not the way to handle it. .I've taught his stuff and it's not THAT easy.

 Spin entries can be near vertical entry and quick. The spiral demo and recovery are not permitted in RAAus and let me say in some planes you have seconds to recover it from a spiral. That's all.

     I've ALWAYS advocated recovery from unusual attitudes training which must be done in something other than a RAAus plane.

  It should be mandated for any Instructor at least and encouraged for everyone else. Many of our planes require more skill to fly than GA types where the bugs have been ironed out and there's less variation plane to plane. Being generally smaller requires refined control inputs as well. . Nev

 

[facthunter]

Mike I know you are keen and I like your attitude but with this you are in a bad place. It needs sorting out. A few generic concepts won't save the day in a real situation You don't have the time to suck it and see. Forget google or any place even such as this forum. I'm HERE alive only because of the extensive training I had in this area.. Even with that , some situations  that can be encountered when instructing (as an example) are still  like pulling a rabbit out of a hat. I'm not trying to "old Soldier" you but you are unlikely to do well what you haven't been trained for.  Get to a good instructor and show him/her what I've said and kick it around. I won't add to what I've already said already but stand by it. there's a limit to what can be conveyed reliably on any forum. Confusion should be eliminated from the equation with flying. regards Nev

[Mike Gearon]

6 hours ago, facthunter said:

Mike I know you are keen and I like your attitude but with this you are in a bad place. It needs sorting out. A few generic concepts won't save the day in a real situation You don't have the time to suck it and see. Forget google or any place even such as this forum. I'm HERE alive only because of the extensive training I had in this area.. Even with that , some situations  that can be encountered when instructing (as an example) are still  like pulling a rabbit out of a hat. I'm not trying to "old Soldier" you but you are unlikely to do well what you haven't been trained for.  Get to a good instructor and show him/her what I've said and kick it around. I won't add to what I've already said already but stand by it. there's a limit to what can be conveyed reliably on any forum. Confusion should be eliminated from the equation with flying. regards Nev

Okay. I see and get this.

 

I’d also suggest some good percentage of pilots can’t tell you which condition is spiral and which is spin. Let alone describe the way to regain control. I also stand by my statement. 🙂 I’m As prepared as I need to be at this stage of my flying. I also take on board your suggestion and if I get to USA as I plan I’ll go up with my American CFI who has just purchased an acrobatic aircraft. We will sort the men from the boys and girls.

[Butch]

Simple answer! 

 

Don't get yourself into a situation that you need these skills.

 

I know...... it can still happen.....then what do you do.

 

As Nev said it takes years of experience before you are able to control this scenario with confidence.

 

I like playing CHICKEN ! 

 

I just stay inside the safety envelope that we have been trained to do.  

Edited May 5, 2021 by Butch

[facthunter]

Butch it's not necessarily the years you do but what you do in those years.. Its the good training rather than the time you have spent...  I acknowledge it's HARDER to obtain NOW than when I did it. That is the challenge for a modern pilot.

   You COULD be a VERY good pilot at 400 hours IF you went about it the right way. . You could also be very mediocre with 4,000 hour s or much more..

 Situations requiring good skills aren't always avoidable. A gust, willy willy  or wind change can get the most wary of us without warning. or a failure of some kind happens.. You will gain confidence with time and exposure. That's a normal progression. Self evaluation requires great honesty.  and a balance to be reached. Don't be too hard on yourself, but don't make excuses either. IF you are saying "everybody makes mistakes" watch it because mistakes can kill you and yours.. Flying and mistakes don't mix well. It's not a very forgiving environment.

 You shouldn't be doing things that make a "Hey what's going on here" moment happen too often.. Nev

[Old Koreelah]

On 05/05/2021 at 6:24 PM, facthunter said:

...You COULD be a VERY good pilot at 400 hours IF you went about it the right way. . You could also be very mediocre with 4,000 hour s or much more..

...Self evaluation requires great honesty.

Good advice, Nev and Butch.

 

On 05/05/2021 at 5:54 PM, Butch said:

Simple answer! 

 

Don't get yourself into a situation that you need these skills...

To stay safe it seems we should regularly nudge the edges and go outside our comfort zone, just to brush up on what are the actual limits of our aeroplanes...and its pilot; and have plenty of altitude while doing it.

[kgwilson]

The number of hours in the logbook is the only official indication of flight knowledge and experience other than the qualifications and ratings. Taking off, climbing above the weather and flying straight and level for several hours on autopilot just adds to the logbook but doesn't advance your knowledge or experience that much.

[RFguy]

My best core flying skills- landing and judging emergency landings (EPs)  ( IE judging paddock and field landings when the instructor or myself says 'engine failure' or 'engine failure and oil on windscreen'))  was when I got my ticket.

I was pretty good at judging the descent, approach and landing for many, many different scenarios in suboptimal weather.

 

some 50 hours later and it is clear that those core skills are in the toilet after a metric ton of cross country exercises and workload.... Yep, I've lost performance on some of those skills now (90 hours) and so my most recent flying has all been back to concentrating on core skills in the vicinity (EPs and landings) ,  rather than flying to $100 hamburgers.

 

[facthunter]

Just doing Circuits and Bumps at a familiar aerodrome  in the "same" plane doesn't advance you much either. You need ways to "dust the cobwebs off" without breaking things. Remember, "Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance." (certainly helps). Fly a glider. Do a T/W endorsement. Do "Unusual Attitude Recovery." TRAINING.. Nev

Edited May 8, 2021 by facthunter

[Yenn]

I agree with the reducing of throttle, but my next action would be to centre the ball, followed by aileron to bring to level and control speed with elevator.

[Mike Gearon]

I’m fairly certain the ball can’t be relied on. I recall possibly here or elsewhere a ball indicator at either side of cockpit as example amd they’ll do different things in spin
 

 

[facthunter]

I'm with that. In a single engined plane just centre the rudder. (for the SPIRAL situation). Don't complicate it. You LEVEL the wings with aileron.  Nev

[Yenn]

Looking on Vans site they have posted the preliminary report, which says nothing really, but it is suggested on Vans site that the RV7A should have the same rudder as the RV8, instead of the one supplied in the kits. This would give greater strength and help with flutter or excessive loading.

I am not aware of what the difference is.

By Vans site I mean Vansaircraft forums.

[Thruster88]

My RV6A rudder is not mass balanced and the Vne is some 20 knots lower than the 7, is it unsafe ?, not if flown within the limits.

A good read even if you are not an RV person yet. https://www.vansaircraft.com/safety/

[lee-wave]

just adding my pennyworth.......a stall, spin or spiral dive characteristics in any aircraft today may be entirely different tomorrow....depending on aircraft loading / CG,  more fuel in one tank then the other and of course the currency of the pilot flying it.

 

[Old Koreelah]

16 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

My RV6A rudder is not mass balanced and the Vne is some 20 knots lower than the 7, is it unsafe ?, not if flown within the limits.

A good read even if you are not an RV person yet. https://www.vansaircraft.com/safety/

Nobody seems to be jumping into this, T88, so I’ll toss in a few cents worth: I don’t know much about the RV series, but much has been written about mass balancing. I added a small lead mass approximating 1/3 of the extra weight involved in a rearward extension to my all-flying rudder.

 

I notice your model lacks the rudder “notch” forward of the hinge line of some RVs. That makes mass balancing a bit difficult; if you’re determined to do it, perhaps you could mount a short, forward-facing weighted arm either side of the rudder; you could hide them under the tail plane.

[facthunter]

The Vans site has  extensively covered this matter I believe. Even painting your moving surfaces can alter the flutter characteristics as well as linkage wear. If  you cruise up high it's well to watch the speed also on descent initially. Nev

[Yenn]

Vans stress that you need to watch the speed, especially as VNE is a true airspeed. That means that at height and on hot days TAS can be way higher than indicated on the ASI.

Something you have to be aware of when test flying your new aircraft. I took my RV4 to VNE during the test phase, but I was using an ASI that calculated TAS, even so it could have been slightly off compared to a worked out TAS.