Vans RV-7 crash, S of Charters Towers 23/04/2021

[facthunter]

F10 a Lot of pilot's really believe you can still tell where "down" is and that saying flying in IMC is not hard. and those who say otherwise are just doing so to complicate it and make more money etc. . Perhaps the ready availability of desk top simulators as advanced that position.. Nev. 

[Kununurra]

180 seconds to live.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, reality is unless you are rated to fly IFR you should not enter cloud end of story. However SHIT ( Send Help In Trouble) happens, anyone who thinks that if they are not proficient to fly in IMC that if they do get caught in it they will be able to take the time to think rationally & work out a plan of how to remedy the situation they are in should watch the video on 180 seconds to live.

I have spoken to many people on this subject & although we don’t want to admit that it may/could/has happened to us at some stage or could in the future. The best solution i have been informed of is to fly 180 degrees back the way you just come from.

I am not condoning flying into cloud at all just saying that my thought process would be to get out of the cloud the opposite way I entered it & as soon as is possible.

 

That would limit the time trapped in cloud & reduce the risk of the 180 seconds to live scenario.

 

I am not an instrument rated pilot and don’t profess to thinking I am or, that I could handle this situation if I faced it.

I do like to keep things simple & if faced with a confronting situation like this I would want to limit what I had to think about.

My opinion is just that “my opinion” & I respect others opinion on this topic.

I have said on here before that I met the pilot of this incident in Charleville on his way to Airlie Beach & was to catch up for a chat when he arrived. That never happened as we are all aware. 
R.I.P Ray

 

 

 

[facthunter]

One of the most careful pilots I ever knew, smeared his twin Comanche against a cliff face in cloud.  It's hard to get caught if you are planning properly, but can happen. Met don't take responsibility for wrong weather forecasts, but even if they did it wouldn't help if you aren't around. Fogs can move in fast. There's times when I've been going to a mountain remote destination where I've organised someone to be at a certain place and tell me what the actual weather is by phone..  It's a management of error deal. If you just keep rolling the dice one day your luck will be out.  You keep hearing about people from time to time. Don't become another statistic. Ice is another possibility also. If you get it you have to go where it's warmer. ie a lower level IF the ground isn't in the way.  The average adiabatic lapse rate is 2 degrees C /1,000 feet. Falling rain can bring cold air down from higher levels  and you can get HAIL 20 Kms from a large Cb in clear air. Nev

[Old Koreelah]

29 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Fogs can move in fast. There's times when I've been going to a mountain remote destination where I've organised someone to be at a certain place and tell me what the actual weather is by phone…

Weather cams are becoming more numerous.

I hope to install one or two at YQDI, which might be a great resource for aviators approaching the Liverpool Range from the north. 

[pmccarthy]

For many aircraft an autopilot is a cheap option. Some have a panic button that executes the 180 degree turn for you and keeps the plane right way up.

[rgmwa]

If you do have an autopilot, best to engage it early before you become completely disoriented and put the plane into a situation where the AP can't recover it.  It could be a lifesaver though, provided you have the presence of mind to use it and trust it to do its job. May not be so easy when everything outside suddenly goes white.  

[Flightrite]

All the gizmo's avail today in what was originally a basic design in the AUF world can & do sucker in the drivers of their planes! Once upon a time flying a drifter or a J2 Cub you wouldn't dream of going near clouds, now drivers just sail on in thinking their gizmo's will save them & most times they do but that's a false sense of security!

The amount of times I've been popping in & out of cloud some years ago to see an unknown lighty is astonishing!

I've always said it...it's too easy to get a plane ticket to drive planes, training is woeful these days & BFR's/AFR's are a joke!

 

My 'Flightsim" keeps me safe😁

[facthunter]

 Despite many assurances to the contrary over time, aviation assessment remains significantly a box ticking exercise.  Everyone gets a bit of check-itis and we all know you can break someone if you set out to do it   If the training was up to par the checking would be a formality..

 Also some people are not right for the Job, same as some people are not right for other jobs.. It could be temperament rather than ability to fly.  AN ACE pilot may be unable to relate to some students and they might get scrubbed. The Red Baron crashed a few planes during training Nev

Edited October 1, 2021 by facthunter

[F10]

Thoughts on doing a 180 turn, basically your only option, but don’t delay….the tricky part is rolling out of the turn….by then the fluid would have settled in the semi-circular canals of your inner ear, so rolling out will feel like rolling into a turn. The US Navy in the early days, saw lots of guys diving into the sea, on night carrier take offs. They realised the rapid acceleration of the cat launch gave the pilots a very strong sensation of a nose up pitch, as thefluid rolled back in their inner ears…getting shot off into a black hole horizon wise. If you look at carrier launch control deflections today, the pilots have the stick fully back on launch, nose up, so even if you inadvertently moved it forward, you will just level off, not dive towards the sea. No matter what, force yourself to believe your AI…if you even have one in an RA aircraft! Hope you get out very soon after the turn.

[turboplanner]

13 hours ago, F10 said:

No matter what, force yourself to believe your AI…if you even have one in an RA aircraft! Hope you get out very soon after the turn.

This is RA, where in various threads we have been discussing minimising the complexities, minimising the cost, and that means minimising the training to the basic standards set under RAA rules, which can provide pleasurable flying in good weather over short distances.

 

In that respect we are helped by AIP ENR1.2 which requires us to have a clear forward view of 5 kilometres at all times in Class C airspace.

 

In the past we could legally fly 500 feet from cloud, so it was legal to cruise at 500 feet, but these days there is plenty of space above you and below you and plenty of time space ahead of you to find a paddock for a precautionary landing.

 

The best training is conditioning yourself for a go/no go decision based on your legal distance minimums.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[aro]

RAA fly in Class G not Class C and the rules haven't changed for as long as I can remember.

 

Below 3000' or 1000' AGL the rule is "clear of cloud" e.g. if cloud is 2050' you can fly at 2000' (you must have a radio on the appropriate frequency).

Above that you need 1000' vertically and 1500m horizontally.

In both cases minimum visibility is 5000m.

 

5000m is extremely poor visibility. It will probably feel like IMC even at only 1000 AGL. Just because the regulations say you can do it doesn't mean it is safe. We only report visibility less than 10km, but the reality is that anything less than 10km is very poor, and a VFR pilot should be careful.

 

[F10]

21 minutes ago, aro said:

RAA fly in Class G not Class C and the rules haven't changed for as long as I can remember.

 

Below 3000' or 1000' AGL the rule is "clear of cloud" e.g. if cloud is 2050' you can fly at 2000' (you must have a radio on the appropriate frequency).

Above that you need 1000' vertically and 1500m horizontally.

In both cases minimum visibility is 5000m.

 

5000m is extremely poor visibility. It will probably feel like IMC even at only 1000 AGL. Just because the regulations say you can do it doesn't mean it is safe. We only report visibility less than 10km, but the reality is that anything less than 10km is very poor, and a VFR pilot should be careful.

 

Agree. 5 km is actually pretty bad! Another thing which is a twist, these vis limits are a pilot responsibility…one mans 1000 ft is another mans 500 ft…..but legally this puts the onus on you. As far as I recall, you can be at 500 ft below cloud base, but only in Class C, otherwise 1000 above and below. An ex RAF Phantom pilot who did an exchange tour with the Luftwaffe, he said they flew in Europe low level, at 420Kts, in 3 Km vis…I asked how on earth could you navigate in that vis at 7 miles a minute? He said, 10 tons of Phantom at 420Kts, heading and time worked like a charm! Short legs, you would need a 90Kt surface wing to drift that beast 100m off track!

[F10]

Loss of control in IMC is a huge killer. One very tragic case to me was the loss of that beautiful DH Dragon Rapide in QLD. Two days later, the weather was gin clear. I lost a good mate in a CFIT due weather. Heavy airframe icing was a factor. Happened on a Friday. Walking to the Sqn buildings after parking my car, Monday morning, the sky was blue, with unlimited vis…..two days….just two days.

[aro]

15 minutes ago, F10 said:

As far as I recall, you can be at 500 ft below cloud base, but only in Class C, otherwise 1000 above and below

In Australia, Class C and E are 1000' vertically, 1500m horizontally. Class D is 1000' above, 500' below, 600m horizontally. Because they wouldn't be Australian regulations if they were consistent and logical.

[F10]

Oh yes D, my bad, cheers! Yes, throw in “special VFR” and it gets more confusing!

Edited October 1, 2021 by F10

[aro]

Special VFR makes a certain amount of sense I think - although I haven't used it myself. It's VFR, but ATC provide separation as if you were IFR.

[Flightrite]

[F10]

My understanding is, special VFR means you must be able to fly visually, but need nor comply with those VFR limits in class D, as long as you won’t interfere with an IFR aircraft. This is to allow a departure from a class C/D airfield, in less than desirable weather. It is at pilot request, a controller won’t clear you special VFR. SVFR not permitted in Class E. I need to revise this stuff, been a “G” man for too long!

[aro]

Rules for helicopters are significantly different, but I'm not sure what the point is?

[aro]

1 minute ago, F10 said:

My understanding is, special VFR means you must be able to fly visually, but need nor comply with those VFR limits in class D, as long as you won’t interfere with an IFR aircraft.

Yes. The requirements for cloud clearance are to (in theory) allow you time for visual separation from IFR aircraft popping out from the cloud.

 

So, (my understanding) special VFR means you don't have to comply with those requirements, but then ATC must separate you from IFR - i.e. by denying special VFR if there is conflict with IFR.

[turboplanner]

Here's the Class G diagramme

 

 

[facthunter]

The critical feature there is below 3000' you only have to be CLEAR of the cloud above you.  Nev

[F10]

My understanding is, special VFR means you must be able to fly visually, but need nor comply with those VFR limits in class D, as long as you won’t interfere with an IFR aircraft. This is to allow a departure from a class C/D airfield, in less than desirable weather. It is at pilot request, a controller won’t clear you special VFR. SVFR not permitted in Class E. I need to revise this stuff, been a “G” man for too long!

[F10]

28 minutes ago, facthunter said:

The critical feature there is below 3000' you only have to be CLEAR of the cloud above you.  Nev

Yes, tricky as this is 3000ft AMSL, inland across the dividing range, it changes to at or below 1000ft AGL. Nice and easy!

Edited October 2, 2021 by F10

[bull]

1 hour ago, F10 said:

Loss of control in IMC is a huge killer. One very tragic case to me was the loss of that beautiful DH Dragon Rapide in QLD. Two days later, the weather was gin clear. I lost a good mate in a CFIT due weather. Heavy airframe icing was a factor. Happened on a Friday. Walking to the Sqn buildings after parking my car, Monday morning, the sky was blue, with unlimited vis…..two days….just two days.

I remember it well, so sad,beautiful aircraft and lovely people ,,,tragic day.........................