Buying a plane...How flamin' hard is it?!?

[KRviator]

The short answer, apparently, is "very".

 

So the back story is I didn't listen to the KRviatrix when she said "Build a -10!". Nope, I thought I knew better and built an RV-9...Well, two became 4 rather quickly and we need 4 seats, so I've been plane-shopping for the last year or so, asking the brains trust here of their opinions on the Cardinal and Comanche. But that's not the point...What bloke, whose missus gives permission to build an RV-10, builds an RV-9?!?🤬

 

Annywayyys..

I've been scouring the various broker's websites for something suitable and that is where the problem starts. It isn't restricted to one broker, agent or person either. Here's a few examples:

• A Comanche 260 listed with a MTOW of 3,200Lbs. Except the -260's never had a MTOW that high, they were 2,900Lbs, or a full 136Kg less. That particular Comanche also has a BEW of 1,936Lbs, over 200lbs heavier than expected. Asked about where the extra weight was, there was no answer. Oh, this was also advertised as "Offers wanted".
• An A36 Bonanza listed with a single, exterior, photo and "Call for price". NO other details! Not one! No component times, AFTT, engine HTR or TSO, nada! And this is from a broker! If they listed my plane like that, I'd be royally pi$$ed...
• Another A36 Bonza originally advertised as having two G5's, though the photos showed gyros. Since updated to state "IFR upgrade available for extra $$!". I've sent two emails with specific questions to this particular broker in the last 3 weeks through the PlaneSales website and there's been zero in return. Again, you want me to advertise my plane with you, then respond to potential buyers!
• A broker who, when asked for the W&B data sent the original document in the AFM, from 1962! I'm yet to hear back if there is something newer, maybe from this century? Same with things like fuel capacity, wing bolt status (kinda important for the Bonza/Deb series) etc. Though to his credit, this particular broker used very good photos in his ad, you can "open in new tab" and zoom in a looong way - enough to realise there's no fuel cal card on the panel!
• Another broker who listed-delisted-listed-delisted-listed a Comanche that would have fit the bill almost perfectly, knew I was interested, and CBF with so much as a simple phone call to say "hey, that -260B you were interested in is for sale again!". Probably a good thing though, as I understand the new buyer had an electrical smoke/fire event on flying it to its' new home!
• Brokers who try to hide the rego mark by photo-shopping the external photos. Seriously? There ain't that many of each make/model in the country so it usually takes me all of 5 minutes with Google to pick out the specific airframe. Though if they forget to hide the radio-call placard on the panel, it makes life so much easier! Why bother? Afraid the owner will sell it out from under you? Then I'd suggest updating your contract to reflect "if it sells in X months while I've listed it, I get paid anyway". Why make me waste my time, just tell me the rego...

 

Surely I can't be the only one who thinks that if you're advertising something for in excess of $100K, that you would get the basics right, that you would actually list the details a buyer might want to know, and you would have more than one photo! When I advertised my hangar, I had the 4 elevation photos, a satellite photo, an aerial photo and diagrams showing where the phone, power, water & gas lines were. I don't think that's OCD or over the top, but rather trying to appeal to more potential buyers. By the same token, list accurate information, because if you can't even get the MTOW right, what else have you got wrong?

 

I'm lucky enough to have enough $$ available to redraw from the mortgage to grab the right plane if it comes along, before I sell my RV, but trying to work out if something is that right plane is frustratingly hard. So that's my rant for today. 

[gareth lacey]

They are sales people , lowest rung on the ladder (same as pollies) so dont expect the truth, they want to sell as quick as they can to get thier commission ,just like parasite real estate agents(dont ask me how i know) best bet is to find out the owners details and get straight from him, 

cheers gareth

[Jabiru7252]

When I advertised my Jabiru, I got clowns asking me how many seats, how fast does it go, how far on a tank etc. This sort of thing wouldn't happen if we were allowed to screen people before they bred.

[facthunter]

Hell, that stuff must be getting old . I flew it in my early 20's and it's not like good wine that improves with age.   Nev

[skippydiesel]

KRviator - I am just trying to purchase a 2 seat RAA registered aircraft - should be almost as simple as "falling of a log" 

 

But Noooooo! there is a "broker" in the equation  and he seems to be doing everything in his power to make the process way way more difficult than it need be, all the while knowing "sweet FA" about the make & model of the aircraft he is supposed to be selling.

 

You have my understanding & sympathy - I hope never to be exposed to a broker again - ever!

[spacesailor]

Does a " broker " have to have Any qualifications ?.

spacesailor

 

[skippydiesel]

24 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

Does a " broker " have to have Any qualifications ?.

spacesailor

 

Clearly the answear is yes - however the Forum managers would censor my description of what the qualifications must be.

[cscotthendry]

Brokers work for the broker. Full stop, end of story. Viewed through that lens, it is easier to understand the motivations of the brokers, that is protecting their income by obfuscating rego numbers, selling dodgy stuff with minimal or no documentation, and savage discounting for a quick (and dirty) sale. That is the most important thing, closing the sale. Any problems that arise after that are the buyer/seller’s problems.

I avoid brokers and agents like the plague where possible. That also goes for lawyers. I've done plenty of real estate transactions in my time and every conveyancing lawyer has stuffed it up royally somewhere along the line. You have to double check and triple check their work. Which begs the question, “what am I paying them for?”.

[skippydiesel]

I think we all understand that brokers/sales people in general are all about making a quick sale at the highest price (% return to them) - what I dont get is the lack of product knowledge, the general BS,  demands for down payments, befor even doing a good inspection (I refused point blank) then when sale price and any condition's agreed to, hitting you with a 3 page agreement, which A fails to accurately describe the aircraft and its major components and B is largely unintelligible,would seem to attempt to undermine the standing of vital documents (eg Log Book) and the responsibility of the vendor to disclose any known defect that may cause injury or harm, etc etc  - I have refused to sign this. So far stalemate!

[turboplanner]

16 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I think we all understand that brokers/sales people in general are all about making a quick sale at the highest price (% return to them) - what I dont get is the lack of product knowledge, the general BS,  demands for down payments, befor even doing a good inspection (I refused point blank) then when sale price and any condition's agreed to, hitting you with a 3 page agreement, which A fails to accurately describe the aircraft and its major components and B is largely unintelligible,would seem to attempt to undermine the standing of vital documents (eg Log Book) and the responsibility of the vendor to disclose any known defect that may cause injury or harm, etc etc  - I have refused to sign this. So far stalemate!

Like any high cost industry there are people who can actually keep their nose above water for a few weeks or months as you describe, and about 70% of sales people assume you know what you want and just want to conlcude the sale without all that messy paperwork, and there are the top 10% who will ask you what your want, and spend some time writing down your needs, then spend a few days on and off researching available equipment which meets those needs, and provide you with a spreadsheet analysis of the products, prices and specifications. They are the people you need to find if you aren't going to do the job yourself.

[KRviator]

18 hours ago, gareth lacey said:

They are sales people , lowest rung on the ladder (same as pollies) so dont expect the truth, they want to sell as quick as they can to get thier commission ,just like parasite real estate agents(don't ask me how i know) best bet is to find out the owners details and get straight from him, 

cheers gareth

What I don't get though - and I speak as a buyer ready to go with $$$ in hand - is all the bollocks I need to go through to determine if the plane advertised is suitable. If it is, and it passes a prebuy, they'll have a bank cheque by the end of that day. Hell, I'd fly it down to the seller and leave the RV there overnight to fly the new toy home! But all this obfuscation, and detail-free ads only delays the sale, or puts me off an individual plane, in turn delaying a potential sale, and the $$ to both vendor & broker.

 

I truly wonder if any sellers realise how much of a disservice they're doing by using some of these so-called brokers. I can understand wanting to avoid the crap that @Jabiru7252 went through, but I'd make the first point of contact an email in that case. You can then read their bollocks over a beer that night, roll your eyes and add it to the spam list. But when it comes time to sell the RV-9 in a month or two, I'll be listing it myself on PlaneSales with aswag of photos, the W&B, as many details as I can squeeze in, and a couple of notes about things I fluffed during the build. They're all things I'd want to know!

 

[pmccarthy]

A close-up of any blemish is a good idea but few do it. A stop-drilled crack in a skin, a chip in the prop, are excuses for last-minute low-ball offers if you didnt show them up front with all the other info.

[facthunter]

To answer the original question... Bl@@dy hard. I've seen the odd C-182 (with struts)that looks as if it's kept in the lounge room. It take s devotion skill and money to look after a plane. They were never meant to last this long. The wrong choice is the nightmare no one would need.  Nev

[onetrack]

I never cease to be amazed at the lack of professionalism and the lack of product knowledge by many people in the sales areas of industry. A broker is providing a service, and that service involves knowing what they are selling and providing the information that the buyer seeks. A good broker or agent also finds out the buyers budget, the planned use of the item, and whether the item they're selling will "fill the bill" for the buyers requirements.

 

I do a small amount of buying of equipment for people who have heard of my equipment knowledge and purchasing skills, via word of mouth. I'm not a broker, nor do I do this as a profession - but I like to keep my acquired skills tuned up.

I have self-drawn-up evaluation charts for each type of equipment, with every major item of componentry listed, that relates to that item of equipment - along with my assessment of its condition, its performance in operation, and any potential repairs needed.

The charts are based on military charts that were designed for maintenance purposes - but I have substantially modified them for sales inspection purposes. Many machinery dealers would utilise a similar type of evaluation chart for assessing trade-ins, in the 1960's and 1970's.

I take about 35 to 40 photos of the item of equipment, and provide a written report to the buyer, giving an accurate assessment of the item. Most of these items of equipment are coming up for sale in auctions, some are privately or dealer owned.

 

Regardless, the approach is the same - assess the item of equipment in a logical written and recorded manner, and provide all the information and clear photos, that the potential buyer needs to make an informed decision.

I have never yet had an unhappy potential buyer, because they are impressed at what I provide - a professional report that makes it easy for them to make a decision based on their needs and requirements.

A professional broker should be able to provide a similar report - and if they can't, they're not professional, they're merely sales BS-artists, just intent on keeping up a flow of income, with little concern for making sure both seller and buyer are satisfied.

 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by onetrack

[RFguy]

suggestions for a 4 seater + bags
 

C182 

Cirrus SR20G1

Arrow with O360

Piper Senica2

 

 

[turboplanner]

45 minutes ago, onetrack said:

I never cease to be amazed at the lack of professionalism and the lack of product knowledge by many people in the sales areas of industry. A broker is providing a service, and that service involves knowing what they are selling and providing the information that the buyer seeks. A good broker or agent also finds out the buyers budget, the planned use of the item, and whether the item they're selling will "fill the bill" for the buyers requirements.

 

I do a small amount of buying of equipment for people who have heard of my equipment knowledge and purchasing skills, via word of mouth. I'm not a broker, nor do I do this as a profession - but I like to keep my acquired skills tuned up.

I have self-drawn-up evaluation charts for each type of equipment, with every major item of componentry listed, that relates to that item of equipment - along with my assessment of its condition, its performance in operation, and any potential repairs needed.

The charts are based on military charts that were designed for maintenance purposes - but I have substantially modified them for sales inspection purposes. Many machinery dealers would utilise a similar type of evaluation chart for assessing trade-ins, in the 1960's and 1970's.

I take about 35 to 40 photos of the item of equipment, and provide a written report to the buyer, giving an accurate assessment of the item. Most of these items of equipment are coming up for sale in auctions, some are privately or dealer owned.

 

Regardless, the approach is the same - assess the item of equipment in a logical written and recorded manner, and provide all the information and clear photos, that the potential buyer needs to make an informed decision.

I have never yet had an unhappy potential buyer, because they are impressed at what I provide - a professional report that makes it easy for them to make a decision based on their needs and requirements.

A professional broker should be able to provide a similar report - and if they can't, they're not professional, they're merely sales BS-artists, just intent on keeping up a flow of income, with little concern for making sure both seller and buyer are satisfied.

 

 

You're experienced in high cost capital equipment and it shows; you'd be in that top 10%.

There are a few pots calling the kettle black here; very little Application and Requirement given, but the receiver is expected to be a  mind reader. With a GA aircraft the communications systems can vary by $20,000.00 alone, and there are so many other variables, particularly after five or six owners have customised the aircraft during the last 40 years, that, while I understand it would be smart spreadsheeting the full specifications, along with maintenance activities, intervals, time on each item, amount of corrosion etc. to actually give the potential buyer enough information to make an informed decision, some sellers are so burned by the level of communication of the buyer, that it's quicker to just quote a price and see if the buyer is serious, and if so, then go into details. This is mainly what happens when sellers are talkers and don't want to get involved in that "written crap", whereas if you spreadsheet it, and save the file, you can email that to every enquirer. I've sold a lot of capital equipment and all of it started with a quote including a short comment on my aplication analysis, a detailed specification with nothing missing, a legal/performance analysis relating to the application, and a price at which it can be bought. The buyer, usually a fleet manager, but very similar to the position of the broker, just has to make a recommendation and give these details to the Board to discuss. You can see how someone like KR is then in a position to buy it there and then, or ask for 1 or more variations. Very simple process, very happy customers.

[skippydiesel]

I have only the one experience with a "broker" and I certainly hope never to have any dealings with one again.

 

Tubo - your logically approach makes sense and is just what I have done. However the broker seemed to think my detailed check list to be excessive and this is from a bloke who doesnt know anything about (factory) Mandatory Modifications as applied to kit aircraft.

[turboplanner]

52 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I have only the one experience with a "broker" and I certainly hope never to have any dealings with one again.

 

Tubo - your logically approach makes sense and is just what I have done. However the broker seemed to think my detailed check list to be excessive and this is from a bloke who doesnt know anything about (factory) Mandatory Modifications as applied to kit aircraft.

He will probably cost himself the sale.

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, turboplanner said:

He will probably cost himself the sale.

That would be a shame (for me) indeed. There will always be another (aircraft) If there is a next time, I hope there is no agent/dealer/broker in the party.

[kgwilson]

I am amazed that there seem to be plenty of people who will buy an aircraft sight unseen. Even if it is direct from the owner I would have to check it thoroughly myself, inspect the log book & test fly it. After that it would have to be checked by a Lame I specify if I figured out it ticked the boxes so far. If there was a broker involved then I have already lost interest. One bloke here bought a Jabiru SP6, paid for it, then went & picked it up & flew it home. He then complained to me about its condition & spent ages trying to find a fault with it running rough. The mind boggles.

[skippydiesel]

11 hours ago, kgwilson said:

I am amazed that there seem to be plenty of people who will buy an aircraft sight unseen. Even if it is direct from the owner I would have to check it thoroughly myself, inspect the log book & test fly it. After that it would have to be checked by a Lame I specify if I figured out it ticked the boxes so far. If there was a broker involved then I have already lost interest. One bloke here bought a Jabiru SP6, paid for it, then went & picked it up & flew it home. He then complained to me about its condition & spent ages trying to find a fault with it running rough. The mind boggles.

Now I know - dont get involved when a "broker" is in the picture

[spacesailor]

Now I know - Who to ask !. LoL

spacesailor

[KRviator]

And here's another one... A "1968 A36 Bonanza"... Except AIUI, the A36 didn't come out until 1969 and the earliest ones on the register are 1970 models. A phone call to this broker went to voicemail, a message was left yesterday requesting a call back. 24 hours later, still nothing...

 

I'm still waiting on a reply to 2 emails sent regarding this '77 A36 Bonanza, the first was sent 03rd May, a follow-up sent on the 18th May - so to the owner of VH-KMT, you might like to ask your broker to actually do their f^&@*N JOB! At least, if you want to actually sell your plane, that is...🤬

 

Also still waiting on a reply to an email I sent on the 18th with a couple of follow-up questions about this nice-looking Debonair. Nothing too hard, I would have thought, just if there is a W&B newer than 1962, the total fuel capacity (the Deb had LR tanks as an option), wing bolt status and when the engine was overhauled.  These are all questions I would have thought a broker would have ready access to allowing a speedy response to a potential buyer.

 

Maybe I should show this to the KRviatrix and try "I've tried to buy a 4-seater, sweetie, but I can't...I might have to build an RV-10 if we really want 4 seats!"

 

Though my next port of call is to think of a few type-specific questions and email the contact for a Twin Comanche advertised in WA. IT'll need a full panel overhaul, but if the W&B works out, I'd take the Twinkie over anything else, bar the overhaul costs!

[skippydiesel]

2 hours ago, KRviator said:

And here's another one... A "1968 A36 Bonanza"... Except AIUI, the A36 didn't come out until 1969 and the earliest ones on the register are 1970 models. A phone call to this broker went to voicemail, a message was left yesterday requesting a call back. 24 hours later, still nothing...

 

I'm still waiting on a reply to 2 emails sent regarding this '77 A36 Bonanza, the first was sent 03rd May, a follow-up sent on the 18th May - so to the owner of VH-KMT, you might like to ask your broker to actually do their f^&@*N JOB! At least, if you want to actually sell your plane, that is...🤬

 

Also still waiting on a reply to an email I sent on the 18th with a couple of follow-up questions about this nice-looking Debonair. Nothing too hard, I would have thought, just if there is a W&B newer than 1962, the total fuel capacity (the Deb had LR tanks as an option), wing bolt status and when the engine was overhauled.  These are all questions I would have thought a broker would have ready access to allowing a speedy response to a potential buyer.

 

Maybe I should show this to the KRviatrix and try "I've tried to buy a 4-seater, sweetie, but I can't...I might have to build an RV-10 if we really want 4 seats!"

 

Though my next port of call is to think of a few type-specific questions and email the contact for a Twin Comanche advertised in WA. IT'll need a full panel overhaul, but if the W&B works out, I'd take the Twinkie over anything else, bar the overhaul costs!

I try to be positive  - here goes;

 

The one (& only) good point to "brokers" is - from the first contact you have nothing but contempt for their lack of professionalism BIG POSATIVE - your bargaining style will automatically be in the realm of "take  no prisoners" - chances are you will do a great deal. Just remember, always be willing to walk away, with the attitude  - "there will always be another, probably nicer Bonanza, around the corner" - they will loose bladder control after a few days silence.

 

 

[KRviator]

Following on from the above, since I can't edit the post, what am I missing or what other info should  I request for a Twin-Co?

 

• Date of last 100 hourly?

• Compressions at last 100-hourly

• Date of engine overhauls?

• 500h magneto overhaul due when?

• Last flown?

• 1000-hr L/G AD complied with? (Comanche specific)

• Gear trunnion NDT / AD? (Comanche specific)

• Gear bungees last done? (Comanche specific)

• Conduits replaced? (Comanche Specific)

• BEW & ARM?

• Fuel capacity? (Pretty sure it has the 120Gal tanks from what I can make out of the fuel cal card, but want to check)

• On oil analysis?

• GNS 430/W/A?

• Any current unserviceability’s?

• Nacelle corrosion AD c/w & date?

• Autopilot type? (STEC 50 by the looks, but want to confirm)

• Speed or performance mods installed?

• ADS-B? and finally;

• Any damage history?
   

It's a fairly comprehensive list, and I'll end up emailing it to the vendor, I've found her direct email address, so she can get the answers in her own time and get back to me.