Buying a plane...How flamin' hard is it?!?

[skippydiesel]

Back to "Brokers" - seems to me (after a first & hopefully last experience) that vendor/purchaser should be very careful when dealing with these creatures;

 

Owner/Vendor

Ask yourself why you are placing your aircraft in the hands of a broker

You will be required to agree to pay a brokers fee - probably a % of the sale price. You will be "locked in" on this even if dissatisfied with brokers performance.

What do you get for this fee?

Advertising - possibly but you could easily do this for yourself. A dot point summary of aircraft features & some informative photos - how hard can it be?

The best price (less broker fee) - It is not so hard for the vendor to make an estimate of the aircrafts worth and come up with a reasonable high end opening price and a low end no sale price - just stick to this and the market will decide. - easy

An experienced seller, skilled in the cut & thrust of negotiation - might be true on the other hand just as likely to sit on his arse waiting for an enthusiastic buyer to do 95% of the work - you will almost certainly do better.

Protect you from the annoyance/aggravation of buyers enquiries - without the type specific knowledge of your aircraft, the broker will be referring all questions  back to you.

"Hosting" potential buyers - may be , if you relocate your aircraft to the same local as the broker. Otherwise you will have to do all the hosting

Security - the broker will do everything by the legal book, protecting you from any potential litigation - completely false. You as the owner will always "carry the can". What of sales agreements/contracts - aircraft sold "as is where is" will have no warranty unless stated otherwise. Owners/vendors still have responsibility for Log Book entry and disclosure of defects that may have safety implications, which includes completion or not of Airworthiness Directives, Mandatory Modifications etc. 

 

Buyer/Purchaser

High pressure sales tactics

No significant knowledge about the aircraft - referred to owner

No capacity to arrange inspection - referred to owner

"Bouncing" between owner & broker - frustrating three-way communication lag, potential misunderstandings and brokers need to "justify" their position

Demands for up front financial deposits (into brokers account) as condition of further inspection, trial flight, access for L2/LAIM, etc

Demand to sign "Sales Contract/Agreement" along with immediate full payment (brokers account) for aircraft

"Sales Contract/Agreement" likely to reflect brokers "spin" on already negotiated/agreed points - read very carefully and insist on correct interpretation, inclusion and removal of points not discussed/agreed too.

"Sales Contract/Agreement" unlikely to be worth the paper its written on - Seeks to absolve all parties from responsibility for anything/ everything, including discharge of Contract itself. 

[onetrack]

Sellers engage brokers simply because;

 

1. They don't want to deal with a constant stream of "tyre kickers" that they regard as time wasters. As someone who has sold a lot of items, I can assure you, there's a lot of "d***heads" out there, who seem to enjoy "playing" at being a buyer of items they can't afford, or they think you're going to give the item away.

 

2. They consider that brokers have a much wider range of "contacts" or "sources" who are highly likely to be genuine buyers, with the ready money or with access to financing.

 

3. They prefer to keep a barrier between themselves and a buyer, to prevent being "worn down" on pricing or conditions, by an aggressive or skilled buyer.

 

4. They consider their time is too valuable to spend dickering and negotiating with a buyer - who may spend an inordinate amount of time contemplating the purchase.

 

For a high value item, that appeals only to a small percentage of the population, and which requires specialist knowledge, engaging a good broker can pay off.

[spacesailor]

Nice plane from !.

Slattery auctions.

Sales no.,4863: Boeing ,.

This time at Brisbane, 

And, has anyone got informatoin on that Grob trainer plane auction. At Jandakot airport WA.

Are the purchaser,s All happy ?.

What was the final bid price, ?.

Do we know anyone with a nice new Grob aircraft, ?.

Is there any chance of a spare seat ,?.

LoL

spacesailor

 

 

 

[facthunter]

Could that be called Grobelling? Nev

[spacesailor]

True.

BUT

it would be my First flight with my new hip !.

NOW would I be able to lift my leg over that cockpit combing? .

Still not up to an 18 year old,s fitness yet. LoL

Had to climb up & inspect my roof this morning,  just for the NRMA insurance.

Seems OK to me. But they,l want photos, then a licenced person to collaborate my inspection.

All for their mates on their list of repairers.

spacesailor

[kgwilson]

If I was selling I'd just put it on Plane Sales, Aviation Trader or other web sites &/or RAAus & Recflying. Maybe I'd get a few tyre kickers but they will probably be less hassle than the broker & the only cost is the advertising fee. Before that I'd have all the photos, specs, log book, (& for me build log, build pics, test log) etc copied as pdfs & email these to prospects if requested. If they then ring with dumb arse questions I'd refer them to the documents I'd sent or tell them to come & have a look for themselves.

[skippydiesel]

2 hours ago, onetrack said:

Sellers engage brokers simply because;

 

1. They don't want to deal with a constant stream of "tyre kickers" that they regard as time wasters. As someone who has sold a lot of items, I can assure you, there's a lot of "d***heads" out there, who seem to enjoy "playing" at being a buyer of items they can't afford, or they think you're going to give the item away.

 

2. They consider that brokers have a much wider range of "contacts" or "sources" who are highly likely to be genuine buyers, with the ready money or with access to financing.

 

3. They prefer to keep a barrier between themselves and a buyer, to prevent being "worn down" on pricing or conditions, by an aggressive or skilled buyer.

 

4. They consider their time is too valuable to spend dickering and negotiating with a buyer - who may spend an inordinate amount of time contemplating the purchase.

 

For a high value item, that appeals only to a small percentage of the population, and which requires specialist knowledge, engaging a good broker can pay off.

1. If you have sold anything in your life you will know to expect tyre kickers - just part of the culture. Lawn mower, car, tractor, truck, aeroplane  - there are always those who are on the look out for a cheap deal or have nothing better to do with their time. Lets not forget this is a two way process - unrealistic asking price will de motivate a lot of genuine buyers - brokers seem to set high initial price, followed month later by "discount" "reduction" notices - not a good look and frustrating for buyers..

2. Limited to one experience - I cant imagine him getting of his enlarged posterior, to actively sell anything, let alone a list of prospective clients - all work done by potential buyer.

3 .Fair enough but the vendor is likely to "pay" for this privilege  in a prolonged sale process and of course financially.

4. As above - there is only one buyer per item,  how long he/she contemplates/researches/considers the purchase is their prerogative - why loose the sale by putting your aircraft in the hands of a total D ... Head.

 

High value items,  lets say above $2k, I agree. Below this the broker has little motivation to remove the digit.

 

[facthunter]

You will get the type that makes a ridiculously low price offer over the Phone without even seeing it.. That's just Insulting. On older items the variation of condition is very wide and risk is higher for the buyer. If you are dealing with someone who goes to a lot of trouble to check it at least they are fair dinkum.. Basically most sales favour the buyer.

    I tend to state the price I want. Maybe you can lose a few bucks that way if you get offered a close figure or have lost patience. 

   One fellow was stringing me along and along. An add in the classified of the AGE got an instant response from him next day at  MY price.. Nev 

Edited June 13, 2021 by facthunter

[cscotthendry]

Had a bloke ring me and talk to me endlessly about an airplane I was selling. He asked lots of questions which I patiently answered. Further down the track he said he wasn't really interested in a 19 reg plane. I wished him well in his plane search and thought no more about it.

Fast forward a month or so later after my plane has been sold, I bump into the guy in a flying school nearby and he rips me a new one for "blowing him off and being rude"!

I couldn't figure out what was the problem until I probed him a bit and when I wished him well on his plane search, he took that as "blowing him off" after he basically said he wasn't interested in a 19 reg plane. I asked him why he said that when it was apparent he REALLY wanted the plane. He said words to the effect that "He didn't want to come across as too eager or I wouldn't negotiate on the price".

He certainly came across as "not too eager". In fact he managed to make "not too eager" sound like "not interested at all" and ended up missing out.

You can be too clever by half if you really try...

[facthunter]

If  they wish to play a GAME it's not your problem.  They are probably BIG on the Manipulation stuff and oversensitive to coming undone. Nev

[Blueadventures]

19 minutes ago, cscotthendry said:

Had a bloke ring me and talk to me endlessly about an airplane I was selling. He asked lots of questions which I patiently answered. Further down the track he said he wasn't really interested in a 19 reg plane. I wished him well in his plane search and thought no more about it.

Fast forward a month or so later after my plane has been sold, I bump into the guy in a flying school nearby and he rips me a new one for "blowing him off and being rude"!

I couldn't figure out what was the problem until I probed him a bit and when I wished him well on his plane search, he took that as "blowing him off" after he basically said he wasn't interested in a 19 reg plane. I asked him why he said that when it was apparent he REALLY wanted the plane. He said words to the effect that "He didn't want to come across as too eager or I wouldn't negotiate on the price".

He certainly came across as "not too eager". In fact he managed to make "not too eager" sound like "not interested at all" and ended up missing out.

You can be too clever by half if you really try...

He must have had a tactical plan to soften you up on price and it back fired, plus he missed getting a great aircraft at a fair price. 

[KRviator]

Add to that the risk of a broker discounting potential purchasers as legitimate and either ignoring, or simply overlooking responding to them, as this thread shows. 

 

There's (potentially) two Bonanza's and a Debonair listed through brokers that could have been sold much earlier and for a higher price had the broker actually responded. The Deb is still listed over 3 months since I first made contact with the broker, however I am led to believe the Bo's did go but much later than my first enquiry to the respective brokers, and probably for a lower price given the extended time on the market.

 

After my email seeking the W&B back in March, I waited several weeks and followed up with the Deb broker to ask where the details were, and the excuse was "the photos were still sitting in my outbox" - he didn't even check to see if they were sent! And you as the vendor are paying for this kind of service. As above, ISTR this particular aircraft was initially listed at $124K, was dropped to $119K and it is now $115K... So that's at least $9,000 this particular broker has cost the seller - and that's not counting his fees on top of that!

 

5 hours ago, kgwilson said:

If I was selling I'd just put it on Plane Sales, Aviation Trader or other web sites &/or RAAus & Recflying. Maybe I'd get a few tyre kickers but they will probably be less hassle than the broker & the only cost is the advertising fee. Before that I'd have all the photos, specs, log book, (& for me build log, build pics, test log) etc copied as pdfs & email these to prospects if requested. If they then ring with dumb arse questions I'd refer them to the documents I'd sent or tell them to come & have a look for themselves.

I think a big problem with brokers and the "he's a tyrekicker" train of thought is the laziness brokers put in to their ads. Let's consider the Deb that's advertised on PlaneSales that I'm interested in, as a case study:

Quote

1962 Beechcraft Debonair 33 Aircraft
Aircraft Type    Single Engine Propeller
Make    Beechcraft
Model    Debonair 33
Condition    Used Aircraft
Sale Type    For Sale
Currency    AU $
Price    $119,000 Incl GST
Location    Victoria, Australia
Registration No    VH-TIM
Year Built    1962
Total Time Airframe    5420

Comments
VERY TIDY NVFR BEECH

MR VALID UNTIL JUNE 2021

LONG RANGE WITH TIP TANKS

140KNTS @ 50 LTS PHR

 

Engine Specifications
200 HOURS TO RUN PLUS PLENTY OF ON CONDITION TIME WITH STRONG COMPRESSIONS AND A TOP END OVERHAUL DONE 800 HOURS AGO, BOTTOM END DONE 600 HOURS AGO.

PROP OVERHAULED 2017 1900 HOURS TO RUN

 

Avionics
DUAL NAV/COMM

MODE C TXP

FUEL FLOW METER

ADF

GPS AIRMAP 2000

 

Interior
7/10

 

Exterior
8/10

What year was the engine overhauled, topped & had the bottom end done?

What is the BEW & CG?

Who manufactured the tip tanks? ISTR there were at least two, and both had different MTOW's & capacities...

What is the MTOW with the tiptanks?

What is the total fuel capacity? "Long Range with Tip Tanks" means sweet FA as the Deb's had optional in-wing LR main tanks, as well as the tips.

"140Kts at 50LPH" - is this KIAS, KTAS, CAS or GS (Yes, I've seen that advertised...) and at what altitude & power setting?!? (Since found out it is KIAS @ 6,500 - otherwise I'd be thinking "Bugger me, that Deb has something wrong with it, it's sooooo slow" - given most cruise speeds are measured & described in KTAS)

"PROP OVERHAULED 2017 1900 HOURS TO RUN" - What make and model is it? The Flottrop propellor listed on the CASA register, a Hartzell installed under an STC? McCauley? Will it have repetitive hub inspections required?

"Dual Nav/Comm" - what make & model is it?

Mode C Transponder - What make & model is it?

GPS AirMap 2000? What about the Garmin GPS100 that's installed in the panel and (hopefully) interfaced to the CDI?

When were the wing-bolts done? AIUI this is a kinda-really-important thing for Bo's & Debs, with 5 yearly inspections and mandatory replacement at 15 years.

 

This isn't an overly comprehensive list of questions, but basic descriptive information for that particular aircraft that should be included in any description - if only to save a bunch of calls to the broker seeking that information that then reveals that Deb isn't actually suitable for the potential buyer.

 

As a seller, it's stuff you can put in your PlaneSales ad rather than having the broker-vendor-buyer ping-pong chasing this kind of stuff. 

Edited June 13, 2021 by KRviator

[cscotthendry]

15 hours ago, Blueadventures said:

He must have had a tactical plan to soften you up on price and it back fired, plus he missed getting a great aircraft at a fair price. 

Yeah, He outsmarted me ... and himself!

[APenNameAndThatA]

22 minutes ago, cscotthendry said:

Yeah, He outsmarted me ... and himself!

Yeah, you fell for his not-interested-in-it ruse hook line and sinker. He should have been smug when you met him, not angry. 

[Blueadventures]

3 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

Yeah, you fell for his not-interested-in-it ruse hook line and sinker. He should have been smug when you met him, not angry. 

I'm sure Scott in not unhappy as was sold and hopefully to a better person.  Cheers.

[RFguy]

182...

 

[facthunter]

None of this stuff is new anymore. That's most of the problem. . Nev

[Thruster88]

18 minutes ago, facthunter said:

None of this stuff is new anymore. That's most of the problem. . Nev

This is the boss's '57 Cessna. It is absolutely as good as the day it left the factory. In many ways it is better because every known fault has been fixed with an AD. These old aircraft are not falling out of the sky, they never have and they never will with good maintenance.  

[facthunter]

That sort of thing is an exception though and very nice.. Nev

[Thruster88]

All the aircraft that leave LVA are just as airworthy. Sure some are not as beautiful.  

[skippydiesel]

12 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

All the aircraft that leave LVA are just as airworthy. Sure some are not as beautiful.  

LVA???

[KRviator]

Properly maintained, I'd have no problem flying a B35 Bonanza - a model that first took flight nearly 70 years ago! Same for their Brand C or P equivalents, too. The only downside to aging aircraft is lack of parts or manufacturer support for critical items and it'd be something like that that would stop an older aircraft flying, not because the fuselage fell apart.

 

Maybe its' time for CAsA to consider something like the Transport Canada "Owner Maintenance" régime? But that's another topic!

 

@skippydiesel LVA = Lachlan Valley Aviation, methinks... 

[facthunter]

The Pipers prior to the factory being flooded had the best corrosion proofing There's still tank bladders and fuel system bits you can spend money on and on the twins corrosion of the underwing skin. where the exhaust augmenter things go. Beechcraft are well built but constructed expensively. I wouldn't bother with a Vee tail. Nev

[skippydiesel]

It seems to me that almost any machine can be maintained to run indefinably - the limiting factor is usually cost (or cost effectiveness if you will).

 

Aesthetically I drool over many of the post WW2 light aircraft - but and its a big BUT, I can fly faster and cheaper in a current generation Rotax powered aircraft, than I ever could in the equivalent 30-76 year old two seater (even when they were new). Sadly it just comes down to economics.

 

Its very similar in the automotive world - beautiful cars/motorbikes of the past, lovingly restored/maintained by enthusiasts, for the most part just cant cut it as an economically viable daily commuter.

[APenNameAndThatA]

2 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

It seems to me that almost any machine can be maintained to run indefinably - the limiting factor is usually cost (or cost effectiveness if you will).

 

Aesthetically I drool over many of the post WW2 light aircraft - but and its a big BUT, I can fly faster and cheaper in a current generation Rotax powered aircraft, than I ever could in the equivalent 30-76 year old two seater (even when they were new). Sadly it just comes down to economics.

 

Its very similar in the automotive world - beautiful cars/motorbikes of the past, lovingly restored/maintained by enthusiasts, for the most part just cant cut it as an economically viable daily commuter.

I would love a Mercedes 560SEL. But not to pay for the petrol.