Buying a plane...How flamin' hard is it?!?

[Thruster88]

12 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

It seems to me that almost any machine can be maintained to run indefinably - the limiting factor is usually cost (or cost effectiveness if you will).

 

Aesthetically I drool over many of the post WW2 light aircraft - but and its a big BUT, I can fly faster and cheaper in a current generation Rotax powered aircraft, than I ever could in the equivalent 30-76 year old two seater (even when they were new). Sadly it just comes down to economics.

 

Its very similar in the automotive world - beautiful cars/motorbikes of the past, lovingly restored/maintained by enthusiasts, for the most part just cant cut it as an economically viable daily commuter.

Skippy, I challenge you to a race, 10 years 50 hours per year, trip length you choose, I will just leave a little early to get there at the same time on the long, 300+nm legs. I am entering a 63 beech Musketeer, 4 nice upright seats, generous baggage, 100knots cruise,  32lph avgas only$$$$$, capital value 25k, annual averaging 2k. What have you got?

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, Thruster88 said:

Skippy, I challenge you to a race, 10 years 50 hours per year, trip length you choose, I will just leave a little early to get there at the same time on the long, 300+nm legs. I am entering a 63 beech Musketeer, 4 nice upright seats, generous baggage, 100knots cruise,  32lph avgas only$$$$$, capital value 25k, annual averaging 2k. What have you got?

T88 - love the look of your Musketeer -

 

The extreme example  of how far we have come, would probably be  Robin Austen's Sonerai  variant VH-SGS  http://www.worldrecordplane.com/ . You can read the astonishing capability of this aircraft for yourself.

 

Leaving SGS to one side - today you can purchase a factory built (or kit variant of the same) Rotax 912 ULS powered, that is capable of high speed cruise of about 135 knots @ about 18-19L/h ULP, the same aircraft can achieve an econamy cruise of 120 knots at about 16//hr and at 100 knots 13L/hr.

 

The one I am most familiar with (has a typical empty weight of 300 kg and under RAA regulations 600 kg max TO - you do the maths. Subtracted from this capacity is 100 L of fuel  & a max crew weight of 180 kg - leaves about 43  kg for stuff. At 120 knots - Duration (to empty) 6 hrs 15 mins - Range (still air) 750 nautical miles (1389 km)

 

Maintenance of the airframe is almost nil, being entirely composite (including most of the undercarriage).

 

The Rotax 912 ULS that powers these aircraft has an oil change interval of 100 hrs and a capacity of 3 litres. The engine is expensive to purchase (about $30K Au at the moment) but very cost effective to operate. Cant remember the coolant capacity but its about 3 litres, so add a bit of concentrate & some distilled water to the cost every 2 years or so. Automotive style spark plugs & oil filter, etc. True there is the 5 year rubber & fuel pump replacement but even the air cooled jobs have their time limited replacement parts.

 

The engine has a 2000hr TBO and unlike most of its air cooled competitors is very likely to exceed this handsomely, without any major interventions to do so.

 

Value ?? well a new kit will set you back about $130 k upwards. A new factory build about $160 k upwards. A preloved one anywhere from $60k upwards.

 

As for aesthetics - the Musketeer gets my vote but I will leave you to own & maintain it.

[RFguy]

Skip ! Rotax 100h oil change ! that is a fantasy !!!! 

 

IMO Rotax needs oil change at 30 hours, 35 hours MAX.

 

If you look at what happens to the oil color, and how the oil feels when you rub it between your fingers after 25 hours....... 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2021 by RFguy

[skippydiesel]

8 minutes ago, RFguy said:

Skip ! Rotax 100h oil change ! that is a fantasy !!!! 

 

IMO Rotax needs oil change at 30 hours, 35 hours MAX.

 

If you look at what happens to the oil color, and how the oil feels when you rub it between your fingers after 25 hours....... 

 

 

Just repeating Rotax 912 ULS service instructions - personally I do my crankcase oil (only) change at 50 hrs. This is a feel good change, does not include filters and has no basis in oil analysis or other more rational decision making.

 

As for your oil "quality" observations, colour/texture - I am surprised at your unscientific subjective assessments which have little bearing on the actual condition of the oil.

[RFguy]

That oil consumption increases abruptly at 30 hours is a SIGN !!!!  anyway, this is not for this forum, this is about Rob's Cessna 182 he's gonna buy . :-) 

 

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, RFguy said:

That oil consumption increases abruptly at 30 hours is a SIGN !!!!  anyway, this is not for this forum, this is about Rob's Cessna 182 he's gonna buy . 🙂

 

30 hrs???? First I have heard of it - I have always removed 3 litres & replaced with 3 litres - ie  no obverse oil consumption

[FlyBoy1960]

the only reason the Rotax will use oil and have it go bad after 25 hours is if you have the engine over propped. Running it over propped will destroy the oil and destroy the engine really quickly. They are designed to rev to 5800 rpm on takeoff and then sit 5200 rpm or above during cruise. Rotax recommend 5500 rpm as the best RPM setting for cruise. I prefer to around 5200 rpm when I am flying

[RFguy]

agreed flyboy, yep I agree, that unit is over-propped. I dont do the maintenance.  and there is a specific service letter from Rotax, warning users about this - says no less than 5200 RPM at WOT  any condition. 

 

However if you rev to 5800 on TO roll , you are likely to overspeed once it gets some good airspeed ... 

so 5300++  static would be a target I think. 

Edited June 15, 2021 by RFguy

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, RFguy said:

agreed flyboy, yep I agree, that unit is over-propped. I dont do the maintenance.  and there is a specific service letter from Rotax, warning users about this - says no less than 5200 RPM at WOT  any condition. 

 

However if you rev to 5800 on TO roll , you are likely to overspeed once it gets some good airspeed ... 

so 5300++  static would be a target I think. 

5200 is the target static rpm

[RFguy]

5200 was  my first guess actually.  since that would satisfy the 5200 + WOT  load specification. but you might get a bit more at 5300 if you watched what your were doing once it got airspeed . maybe no good for students having it a bit too close to the maginot line . 

dont forget, the rotax book- most of the charts they assume variable pitch prop. 

[skippydiesel]

13 hours ago, RFguy said:

5200 was  my first guess actually.  since that would satisfy the 5200 + WOT  load specification. but you might get a bit more at 5300 if you watched what your were doing once it got airspeed . maybe no good for students having it a bit too close to the maginot line . 

dont forget, the rotax book- most of the charts they assume variable pitch prop. 

No matter what fixed wing aircraft you fly - if its Rotax 91 you must manage engine  RPM. The prop cats like a speed governor - pitch up for lower rpm / down for higher rpm. The 5200 static will allow the engine to get max rpm in TO phase AND if pilot not attentive redline.

[RFguy]

No dispute from me skip.

I've read every Rotax maintenance manual , install manual , operating manual , and all service letters back to back.

[Thruster88]

On 14/06/2021 at 12:40 PM, RFguy said:

182...

 

I had a look at ATSB for PA-30 accidents. It appears to me that most of these would not have happened in a fixed gear single engine aircraft, especially the fatals involving loss of thrust in one engine.  

[RFguy]

A bit more to the overpropped rotax sub-thread.

 

Prop WAS pitched for 5200 WOT static at birth... (paperwork) 

 

Prop is now 1850 hours/2000 hours   and has quite alot of nicks and it rather worse for wear (but still has perfect tracking , good balance. etc all acceptable as assessed by  a LAME) .

So that's a large reason for the extra drag. I remember about 150 hours ago that  prop  got the back sanded lightly and I remember I had an extra 100 rpm...

Prop had 0.5 degree reduced yesterday and I have 150 more static RPM.  Was windy so didnt  get to see exactly what the result was  in nil wind static. Monday.  Watching how to set up a prop was a useful learning opportunity.  (It's within +/- 0.05deg 2 sigma)  (3 blade ) 

Edited June 25, 2021 by RFguy

[skippydiesel]

Propeller "nicks" - although some damage is inevitable, you can minimise this by being aware of the ground surface conditions, when doing your run up's and on initial TO acceleration.

 

If possible, it pays to do run ups on a surface without any loose material. If this not possible slowly increase engine rpm, to the minimum speed necessary, to successfully complete pre flight checks.

 

Unless conducting short field take-off,  you have two options:

• Allow aircraft to commence rolling under low engine power, increase progressively to Max power,.
• Commence take off while taxying to line up ie "rolling start"

The aim is to reduce the chances of small stones being lifted by the prop "blast"  & impacting/damaging  the prop - seems to work.

[poteroo]

The worst damage we seem to incur is with the fine 'blue metal' dust that is created by large sweeper machines being run up/dn taxiways. This stuff causes small nicks in the backside of the propellor. They are obvious if you run your finger along the rear surface because they are sharp edged little divets which are like chiselled up butter - but slice your finger very nastily. When they are cleaned off by a flat file, followed by a light sandpapering, a small indentation remains in the metal blade, and this apparently creates turbulence in the airflow across the rear of the prop = reduced efficiency.  It's such an issue here that I run up back near the terminals where the hot mix is very smooth.  Airport owners don't waste money on good quality hot mix for the rabble at the GA end! 👎

[KRviator]

So a bit more of a follow-up in my saga of dealing with dealers...I sent an email off to the listed contact about this Twin Comanche, and got a response along the lines of "I'm in quarantine at present, I'll get the answers to your questions and get back to you when I get out". Fair enough. That was on the 4th June. Nothing heard since.

 

But here's the kicker...

 

I sent an email to the broker about this Debonair on the 18th May asking for total fuel, a more recent W&B than one from 1962, wing bolt status and engine overhaul year - and never heard a peep from him with answers. But I've covered that previously...

 

So I got the address from CAsA and wrote an old fashioned letter to the owner, with a brief spiel, those questions, and my phone number. Fast forward a week and I get a call from him, and we had a great chat over about 45 minutes, but he dropped a bombshell when he said the price on the ad is not what he is selling it for, the broker apparently dropped the price without the vendors authority and he won't sell below the original listed price of $124,000. As anyone can see, it is currently advertised at $115,000. The difference is a Dynon AP install (during a SkyView upgrade, not a stand-alone), or a GI275 to tell the existing autopilot where to go. And, given it is now only $35,000 less than another Twinkie that's listed in Bankstown and is veerrrryyyy nicely equipped (with a BEW to match, though), it is nowhere near as competitive anymore.

 

So I wrote back to the broker asking essentially "I've talked to the owner, he says the price is $124, I've got the $$ ready to go if all checks out, but where does this $115 come into it?" and here's the response I got back "KRviator, You can deal directly with David. Sent from my iPhone". How's that for service, eh? I can tell you who I won't be engaging for any sales or ferry services, flamin' clown.🤬

 

I also have a potential lead on a Comanche up Monduran way, after posting a WTB ad on one of the FB buy/sell/swap groups earlier this month, so will follow that up in a couple days, as well as giving the RV a bath before I get some photos for her 'for sale' ad.

And, on that note, and at the risk of exposing myself to ridicule & derision, here's the proposed text for the ad I'm going to put on PlaneSales when I get around to it. IF there's anything else I've missed that should be there, or that you would want to see in the ad, please throw it out there. I'd rather give all the information a buyer could want from the get-go than play email ping-pong like I've had to!
 

Quote

For reluctant sale is my RV-9A. I am selling for one reason, and one reason only - I need 4 seats, and the missus won't let me build a -10. She reckons I had the chance and that ship has sailed.
 

Built from a complete QB kit over 4 years, 9 months and 19 days her first flight was the 26th March 2016 under RAAus administration - yes, she CAN fly under RAAus AND as a 2 seater - but with the added weight of heavier seat cushions, transponder, 2 autopilot servos and the second screen I've since installed, I re-registered it VH to allow a more reasonable payload and keep flying with the kids as they, and my waistline, get bigger...
 

The engine is a factory-new ECI OX-340S-B4J4N4, the suffixes denoting low-compression pistons, electronic ignition & 14mm (automotive) plug bosses, with ~140TTSN. This is essentially a stroked O-320, nominally giving 185HP, but derated to 165HP to allow Mogas (And keep Van happy). If you are happy to run Avgas, you could swap to standard pistons and pick up an instant 20HP.
 

The rest of the equipment installed is as follows:
* 2 x PMag series 114 Electronic Ignition systems, firing BR8ESSP automotive plugs
* Sensenich 2G0M7/C72RG composite, ground-adjustable prop.
* B&C 410H alternator mounted on the vacuum pad
* Vertical Power VP-X Sport electrical management system, tied to the Dynon Skyview
* 2 x Dynon 10" SkyView Classic EFIS displays
* Dynon EMS module, with full engine monitoring & datalogging
* Dynon 2-axis autopilot with Pitch & Roll servos
* Dynon SV-XPDR-261 ADS-B-capable transponder
* Dynon GPS-2020 ADS-B compliant position source
* Dynon ARINC module to allow the KLN-90B to talk to the EFIS
* 2 x Dynon Wi-Fi adapters, to allow you to wirelessly transfer your iPad flightplan to the EFIS
* KLN-90B TSO'd GNSS unit to push the 'positive fix' time out from 30 mins to 2 hours if necessary, connected through the ARINC interface to the EFIS. This allows KLN waypoints to be graphically displayed on the Skyview moving map, and the autopilot to fly the horizontal component of a GPS approach, with HSI auto-scaling and automatic course updates.
* Xcom VHF radio, with the Aux input connected to the Dynon audio output for audible alerts or messages
* Rotec TBI 48/4-5 throttle body
* Carling Contura-V backlit switches
* Infinity RHS stick grip (LHS included, but not installed) with CWS/AP Disc, pitch & roll trim, PTT, flaps and engine starter functions.
* Seat cushions are from a Suzuki Swift Sport- don't laugh, they fit beautifully, are comfy and look great!
* Bogert Aviation tow bar
* A full set of Bruce's Custom Covers is also included for the fuselage, prop, tail and wings - which also have hail-resistant padding in them if you can't get a hangar straight away.
* She is polished, with red & yellow vinyl stripes that can be removed if my chosen livery isn't to your taste.
 

Everything, with the exception of the XCom VHF, KLN-90B and seat cushions was factory-new, and has ~140TT. Also included is a pair of Bison Mountain RV flight bags, in grey leather. One is my everyday flight bag, the other is completely unused. These bags are specially shaped to fit behind the seats and over the flap torque tube on the side-by-side RV's.
 

She is almost a completely stock RV-9A however, there are a few little changes I made, these being:
* She's set up to fly PIC from the RHS
* The EMS can monitor L+R ignition switch state.
* The EMS can monitor if the EI's are electrically powered, either with ships power, or internally
* The VHF antenna is mounted on the aft deck, not underneath. The Bruce's fuselage cover was custom-made to accommodate this position.
* The Dynon system has a custom user database of every certified airport & ALA in Australia, developed by me prior to the OzRunways/Dynon collaboration, so if you don't subscribe to the OzR Dynon aerodata, you can stil use the internal database.
 

Performance is almost exactly what Van's indicates. I typically cruise at 2,400RPM and ~143KTAS at 8,500 burning 25LPH. Climb rate at light weights is around 1,800FPM with takeoff & landing distances in the 300m range.

Apart from a short period after moving to the airport (maybe 4 months?) when she was outside with the covers on, she's been hangared throughout her life, initially at Cessnock & Somersby and now Scone.
 

Given this is an aeroplane that, for all intents and purposes, a bloke built in his back shed, there are a few cosmetic blemishes I want to make clear from the outset.
* The underside of the right elevator has a convex dent where I rivetted the last one in the row and it wasn't on the bucking bar. Unless you get on your hands and knees and look up you'd never see it.
* The skin over the baggage compartment has a couple of small, similar bumps where I messed up, and decided to keep them rather than de-rivet & replace the entire skin.
* The upper left wing skin has a half-dozen tiny concave dents in a row - caused by me bumping the Cyclo polisher of all things!
* The canopy has a small piece missing on the aft LHS where it cracked and broke off. I don't know if one of the kids dropped it closed and broke it, or it cracked at altitude and disappeared into the ether, but nonetheless it is missing a 2"x2" piece at the LHS rear, bottom corner.
* Part of the lower gear intersection fairing broke off during the initial testing (2nd flight as I recall). It's on the trailing edge on the inboard side, and not visible unless you actively look, so I have not replaced it. Fiberglass work....yuck...
* My paint skills are certainly no match for a concours body shop, however, it's 'adequate' if not 'good' but there are several pinholes in the wheel pants and a couple of small spots on the lower cowl where it bubbled slightly.
* One of the gear leg fairings is stained where a fuel drain weeped onto it between flights that hasn't been repainted yet.
* While she is polished, I have not re-done the underside of the wings or HS since the initial round several years ago, so there is some minor oxidation on the lower surfaces.
* I used (apparently, very) heavy-duty fabric tape to hold the canopy together at one point during the build - and be stuffed if I can get the last remnants off the rear (baggage) canopy. I've tried everything short of a belt sander and it won't budge. You can only see it climbing in or out, so I've given up lest I damage the plexiglass trying to remove it, and finally;
* The KLN-90B database is very out-of-date, but let's face it, airport's don't move...She's not approved for IFR so the lack of up-to-date waypoints isn't critical for the GNSS.
 

Finally, something I am picky about in various ads, the W&B. Initially, she weighed 445Kg (981Lbs) empty, giving a 155Kg payload under RAAus, however, with the extra's now installed and operating under CASA, the current BEW is: XXXkg, and the CG position is XXX". MTOW is set at 816Kg / 1,800Lbs, allowing a full-fuel cabin load of XXXKg. (For this RF Post only: Figures to be added when I either go flying & drain the tanks, or weigh it with full tanks & subtract the known quantity & arm.)

To replace her as-is would probably cost well over $160,000 - and that's not even considering the year-plus lead time for a QB kit before you could even start building - so I think she's fairly reasonably priced at $135,000 but I would also consider a trade for a suitable & similarly performing 4-6 seater (Comanche 260/Bonanza for example).
 

As I do 24/7 shiftwork, for any enquiries please shoot me an email with your details to <email to be decided> in the first instance and I'll get back to you soon as I can.

 

Edited July 20, 2021 by KRviator

[spacesailor]

Hey !.

Thats a dam good advert.

spacesailor

[RFguy]

Comprehensive Rob !. Only comment is that you might have over-capitalized on the panel  avionics for what some operators may want.

[Flyingfish]

Anyone know if stamp duty is payable on an aircraft purchase in NSW?

[Thruster88]

7 hours ago, Flyingfish said:

Anyone know if stamp duty is payable on an aircraft purchase in NSW?

No stamp duty in NSW.

[Flyingfish]

Thanks!

[skippydiesel]

Idle thought - with all the negative reviews that ait craft "brokers" get (I also had a bad experience) are there any positive/happy customer reviews out there??

[Thruster88]

I have self brokered all my aircraft purchases without any contracts or fees, very happy.

[MattP]

@KRviator just curious if you ended up hearing any more on the debonair? A friend was looking and mentioned it, along with the fact he’s tried with the broker to get basic details and hasn’t received response. It rang a bell and I did a search on here, and voila!

 

Given it’s been up for about a year or so you’d think they’d be keen to move it?