Can a pitot-cover kill?

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 23/06/2021 at 2:09 PM, Garfly said:

Yes, and it seems to me that the importance of those checks is less to do with airspeed indication per se and more to do with the confusion/distraction that can come when confronted with anomalous data.  Confusion begets fear/panic which begets rationality melt down.  It's especially perilous near the ground, of course, and with low-time flyers.

 

Which reminds me of this recent Dan Gryder video about what happens to instructors when they have a student "lock-up" on them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was a fan of a previous video that this guy did. Talking about a pilot shortage meaning that they take anybody AND talking about specific crashes with students frozen at the controls is really unfair IMHO. 

 

As far as I know there is no way to select out students who will freeze at the controls. I read about a B36 pilot who was well regarded who froze under difficult conditions. I read about a military jet pilot being instructed who froze.  

 

As for the instructor. If you can’t overpower the student, you will have to stab them in the eye with a biro. Does any instructor know to do that? 

 

 

[Flying Binghi]

When I did my basic training for VH we did a few circuits with the ASI taped over. When I were doing my NGT training circuits, on a full moon night of 8 octa’s severe clear, the instructor sticky note failed the ASI. I assumed it were just part of basic training ? 

 

When you know your machine power and attitude = ...

 

 

 

 

.

[Thruster88]

9 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

I was a fan of a previous video that this guy did. Talking about a pilot shortage meaning that they take anybody AND talking about specific crashes with students frozen at the controls is really unfair IMHO. 

 

As far as I know there is no way to select out students who will freeze at the controls. I read about a B36 pilot who was well regarded who froze under difficult conditions. I read about a military jet pilot being instructed who froze.  

 

As for the instructor. If you can’t overpower the student, you will have to stab them in the eye with a biro. Does any instructor know to do that? 

 

 

I am not an instructor but I know how to correct someone who might be interfering with the dual controls. You hit them in the throat with all the force you can muster like it is the fight of your life.

[F10]

POWER + ATTITUDE = PERFORMANCE.

Set the correct power, select the correct flight attitude (for climb, straight and level, descending whatever) and the ASI, VSI and Altimeter can do what they like. Use your GPS ground speed reading to help on final approach. Practice stalls at a safe height, with the airspeed covered up, so you can get to “feel” the light buffet. Sadly big jets will bombard you with all sorts of audio warnings and flashing captions, because the computers get fooled. Airbus aircraft will start doing weird “reversionary mode” things like trimming fully nose up if the computer is fooled into thinking the jet is over speeding…so, my sympathy to those aircrew confronted with this in IMC and at night. Air France 447 an interesting very tragic case study.

Edited October 1, 2021 by F10

[Bruce Tuncks]

In gliders, they make you do a flight or two with the ASI covered. Most people fly the circuit about 5 knots faster than usual, I know I did.

One day I test-flew a glider another guy had serviced. It was not a common thing for me to do, but the glider owner had not flown it before at all, and I reckoned that the test flight after maintenance should be separate from the conversion flight. Well the ASI was connected wrongly and didn't work at all, so the circuit was done 5 knots faster than standard.

My sympathies go to those airline pilots who might have to cope with berserk computers too. I didn't like coping with a malfunctioning ASI.

[facthunter]

Wasps will block your pitot with mud quickly at some locations. You should be able to do a safe circuit without the ASI  easily in a basic aircraft. and it's much easier in an open cockpit Biplane because you can hear the airflow over the wires. If you weren't a bit fast you would be silly. You always err on the safe side

[SSCBD]

For RAA aircraft and single engine GA pilots - If you have not been taught and completed or cannot fly a circuit and land without the ASI,  you should not be flying its that simple. Its a basic skill. Think of yourself - BUT more so of your responsibility to your PAX's life. Something that can be mastered easily with a bit of instruction saves lives.

 

 

 

 

[rgmwa]

On 26/06/2021 at 4:16 PM, Thruster88 said:

I am not an instructor but I know how to correct someone who might be interfering with the dual controls. You hit them in the throat with all the force you can muster like it is the fight of your life.

My instructor told me he had a student freeze on the controls once and he ended up having to punch him to make him let go.

[nomadpete]

It's not only the student who might 'freeze' on the controls.

I have personally experienced an instructor freeze on the controls. During conversion to a different RAA aircraft, I bounced on landing. By the time he called 'My aircraft', I had firewalls the throttle, levelled the wings and he grabbed the stick......  And just held it. I foolishly trusted him to tart us climbing.  By the time I realised he wasn't doing anything, we settled into a drainage ditch beside the runway. BANG! It was all over in 4 seconds.

 

I later heard another pilot had similar experience with that instructor. She exclaimed 'If I hadn't grabbed the controls back,  we'd still be bouncing down the strip.'

 

There are good instructors,and there are other kinds. It pays to shop around.

[facthunter]

I think it's a reasonable expectation that the Instructor has a solid aeronautical knowledge base and proven record of better than normal performance as it's expected thay He/She can takeover in risky circumsta.nces. Patience is needed also. I've had plenty of pilots tell me that they would not have the Patience to do THAT job.

  The student is PAYING so the patience matter is covered.  Sometimes a slow learner makes an excellent pilot.  A good instructor is/should be pretty flexible. Nev

[GraemeK]

It can kill, but it shouldn't. When I was doing my (RAAus) training I had to fly several consecutive circuits with covered instruments (ASI, altimeter, VSI, AH, T&B, tacho). Surprisingly easy to nail altitude, approach speed, etc if you don't panic.

[facthunter]

Easier by far at a familiar aerodrome. You are familiar with the places you turn at. Everyone should do it. Don't rush or cramp yourself.  Removing all the instruments at once may be a bit sudden. Nev

[Flightrite]

With the advent of GPS in pretty much every airframe in one form or another an indication of speed is easy sort.

[KRviator]

On 05/10/2021 at 10:48 PM, Flightrite said:

With the advent of GPS in pretty much every airframe in one form or another an indication of speed is easy sort.

I've taken off with the pitot cover in place once. I did notice it on the takeoff roll, but with only a 600m runway with a 2% downhill gradient and no definitive speed I continued the takeoff rather than try to stop, pegged the VSI at +1000 and flew to the Council airstrip a few minutes away using GPS GS as a guide - bear in mind this was just after sunrise, so before the wind had picked up, and Vy in the RV gives over 1800FPM in the conditions that day.

But what if you do have a significant wind to factor in? GPS GS can't be relied on in those conditions, can it? Wellllll...

In any wind, a two-way run at a fixed power setting will give you your average TAS by adding the GPS GS & dividing by two. From there, you can work out what the approximate wind component is, and use a bit of mental maths to keep your speed in a safe range on final. Ie, 360*M & 120GS & 180*M & 80GS gives you 100KTAS. IF the runway is in the 160*-200* range, I could fly final as slow as 40GS in the RV, giving me 60KTAS. 

[Roundsounds]

1 hour ago, KRviator said:

I've taken off with the pitot cover in place once. I did notice it on the takeoff roll, but with only a 600m runway with a 2% downhill gradient and no definitive speed I continued the takeoff rather than try to stop, pegged the VSI at +1000 and flew to the Council airstrip a few minutes away using GPS GS as a guide - bear in mind this was just after sunrise, so before the wind had picked up, and Vy in the RV gives over 1800FPM in the conditions that day.

But what if you do have a significant wind to factor in? GPS GS can't be relied on in those conditions, can it? Wellllll...

In any wind, a two-way run at a fixed power setting will give you your average TAS by adding the GPS GS & dividing by two. From there, you can work out what the approximate wind component is, and use a bit of mental maths to keep your speed in a safe range on final. Ie, 360*M & 120GS & 180*M & 80GS gives you 100KTAS. IF the runway is in the 160*-200* range, I could fly final as slow as 40GS in the RV, giving me 60KTAS. 

If a pilot cannot fly an aeroplane without reference to their flight instruments by day in VMC they shouldn’t be flying. These pilots are playing Russian roulette with their own and any passengers lives.

These pilots are also displaying the fact they have been poorly trained. All phases of flight should be established by setting a known power and attitude combination, the flight instruments are then reviewed to fine tune the phase.

Over the years I have flown a number of aeroplanes where within a short period of time it has become obvious the airspeed indicator was in error, yet these aircraft were in regular flight training use with people blindly following the ASI. The subtle errors can be killers too. With an ageing GA fleet pitot / static systems can develop leaks as the result of corrosion in aluminium lines. My quick test is to open / close vents in flight while monitoring ASI / VSI for any rapid changes. These may be an indication of a leak within the cabin, it will not show up any outside of the cabin. These faults can then be referred for maintenance action.  

[KRviator]

15 minutes ago, Roundsounds said:

If a pilot cannot fly an aeroplane without reference to their flight instruments by day in VMC they shouldn’t be flying. These pilots are playing Russian roulette with their own and any passengers lives.

These pilots are also displaying the fact they have been poorly trained. All phases of flight should be established by setting a known power and attitude combination, the flight instruments are then reviewed to fine tune the phase.

True, but that argument appears to discount using those instruments that remain available in favour of - essentially - guessing your speed. Yes, it can be done, but if you have other sources of valid data, you should use them to confirm your speed/position/actions. Anything else is setting you up to be hung out to dry in the ATSB report..."Although the Pilot had GPS groundspeed data available to him and would have been able to use this to determine airspeed, he chose not to use it in favour of estimating aircraft performance based on power & attitude for which the airframe manufacturer did not provide such data..." or a similar writeup.

 

I went out with an instructor for some additional training a couple weeks ago, and we scrubbed the flight about 15min in after the weather appeared to be worse than forecast, whereupon I promptly entered the departure airport as the DTO waypoint in the GNSS. That seemed to surprise the instructor who asked if I could do it without the GNSS. "Of course" was my reply. "But why would I? Putting the destination in as the waypoint gives exact distance for the 10mile call, lateral guidance and a precise altitude-intercept location." The point being, use the tools you have available to reduce your workload.

Just because we're trained to navigate with paper maps and a stopwatch doesn't mean we should use them to the exclusion of everything else in this day and age - particularly when the AIP now allows VFR pilots to use TSO'd GNSS units for Area Navigation and to push the 'positive-fix' time out to 2 hours.

[facthunter]

CRM is Cockpit resource management. That Might even involve getting someone else up to the cockpit to do some chore even though that would be illegal normally. You need to think outside the square. Use all you have but don't be distracted with one particular item. Nev

Edited October 7, 2021 by facthunter

[Roundsounds]

1 hour ago, KRviator said:

True, but that argument appears to discount using those instruments that remain available in favour of - essentially - guessing your speed. Yes, it can be done, but if you have other sources of valid data, you should use them to confirm your speed/position/actions. Anything else is setting you up to be hung out to dry in the ATSB report..."Although the Pilot had GPS groundspeed data available to him and would have been able to use this to determine airspeed, he chose not to use it in favour of estimating aircraft performance based on power & attitude for which the airframe manufacturer did not provide such data..." or a similar writeup.

 

I went out with an instructor for some additional training a couple weeks ago, and we scrubbed the flight about 15min in after the weather appeared to be worse than forecast, whereupon I promptly entered the departure airport as the DTO waypoint in the GNSS. That seemed to surprise the instructor who asked if I could do it without the GNSS. "Of course" was my reply. "But why would I? Putting the destination in as the waypoint gives exact distance for the 10mile call, lateral guidance and a precise altitude-intercept location." The point being, use the tools you have available to reduce your workload.

Just because we're trained to navigate with paper maps and a stopwatch doesn't mean we should use them to the exclusion of everything else in this day and age - particularly when the AIP now allows VFR pilots to use TSO'd GNSS units for Area Navigation and to push the 'positive-fix' time out to 2 hours.

I agree you could use other sources of information, however I know the power and attitude settings for the aircraft I fly. The comment about estimating performance data doesn’t consider estimating wind component to correct the GS data. I would rather rely on that than GPS GS information.

pilots can make up their own power/attitude table for each aircraft type. Eventually you’ll find a very similar combination across a wide range of types, the airspeed may vary but the combination of power and attitude varies little. 
 

I spend a bit of time thinking through “What if’s” scenarios. What would you do if your IAS looked ok on the takeoff roll, but as you started climbing you noticed the IAS continually decreasing without any change of power / attitude? A scan of the ALT / VSI shows zero RoC and the altitude not increasing, but you see you are climbing buy visual cues. You have your EFB mounted in its normal place. 
This scenario is a likely one and probably the most time critical one a pilot would encounter. 
What would be your initial response / actions?

Edited October 7, 2021 by Roundsounds

[KRviator]

27 minutes ago, Roundsounds said:

What would you do if your IAS looked ok on the takeoff roll, but as you started climbing you noticed the IAS continually decreasing without any change of power / attitude? A scan of the ALT / VSI shows zero RoC and the altitude not increasing, but you see you are climbing buy visual cues. You have your EFB mounted in its normal place. 
This scenario is a likely one and probably the most time critical one a pilot would encounter. 
What would be your initial response / actions?

In the case of the RV, fly 10* pitch & full power until terrain clearance is assured, on the crosswind leg downgrade to Mode A on the transponder, and on the Coey's EFIS Button 7+8, select GPS FIX Status & climb at the CHT limit to fly the relevant GPS altitude to my destination while cursing the fact I didn't take the tape off the static ports after washing the plane - and missed it in pre-flight. If my routing is as usual, cruising at the base of CTA, I'd probably drop down to the next suitable VFR level to avoid an unintentional VCA. I certainly wouldn't entertain the idea of an immediate return - or any return at all, even if going away from home base.

Edited October 7, 2021 by KRviator

[facthunter]

Hold a conservative pitch and check flaps gear and power. The power should be checked soon after applying it. How it accelerates is the main indicator. If you have a C/S prop revs mean little. Carb heat left on is a common problem. On  a DC-6 incident one engine cowl partly dislodging was enough to kill the TO and climb performance even with 4 engines still running.   Nev

[Old Koreelah]

2 hours ago, KRviator said:

…while cursing the fact I didn't take the tape off the static ports after washing the plane,,,

Crickey, hadn’t thought of that. (Wash the plane, I mean).

But next time I get the urge to sponge it clean, I’ll tape over my static ports. I guess I should also disconnect the hose from the ASI and blow it clean.  

 

As many on here have said, we should be able to fly safely without flight instrument.
The top of my cowl is level with the horizon at stall attitude, so the forward view is a pretty fair indication of attitude. 

Clearly hearing engine noise on takeoff is also important, so I don’t switch on noise cancelling until top of climb.