Selling a partially built kit

[Geoff_H]

I am interested.  Not knowing what instruments etc that could be sold of it ends up impossible to be fixed.  

[skippydiesel]

51 minutes ago, Geoff_H said:

I am interested.  Not knowing what instruments etc that could be sold of it ends up impossible to be fixed.  

Its a bit different to a Mooney. If you want to discuss further -contact me.

 

As for instruments - I have removed all but the engine instruments. Depending on the final  price, the nave/flight/comms will bee either part of the deal or sold separately - there is just too much money tied up in these to give them away.

 

I have been trying, for the last 18 months,  to find a suitable replacement aircraft - so far no luck (some very close but deal fell through at last hurdles). Who would have thought it would be hard to find the right aircraft  or to sell my Zephyr. Anyhow if I havent sold the Zephyr soon (?) will bite the bullet, go into a 6 months intensive rebuild and have myself a wonderful aircraft at the end (that's the fall back plan).

[Geoff_H]

I have been researching the aircraft for a while.  Two problems, is it repairable with moulds and where could I store and where could I repair aircraft.  Limited workshop space, completed aircraft will not fit in my garage.  Started researching a few weeks before covid lockdown, about to go to the Oaks for research.  Then lockdown. I will resume after lockdown.  No point trying to remotely solve issues.

[Student Pilot]

I have been trying to sell a disassembled aircraft for ages. A 172D in pieces. The aircraft has an STC to fit a 180HP engine. The aircraft is complete without an engine. The STC includes new prop and engine mount. I was asking 15K (the STC is worth more than that) all I got was tyre kickers, time wasters. While not a kit aircraft it's cheaper than any kit.

[Geoff_H]

Has its SIDS been done?  I overhauled an engine a few years ago, I did most of the grunt work under the direct supervision of a LAME.  Cost me $40k!  After you have an aircraft restored you have spent a fortune or spent thousands of hours and what do you have? Often a very out of date aircraft or a patched aircraft that is hard to resell.  What if you bought an old or damaged aircraft and soon after getting it you realise that it is just not worth it, now you have to get rid of a large amount of sheet aluminium and steel or composite junk.  Not a cheap exercise. The engine and instrumentation can have value, but you have to find someone that wants it.  I think that before purchase a significant amount of investigation and analysis.  Not simple.  I would prefer to look at the major project killer items before I go look at the aircraft. 

[Geoff_H]

At the end of the day I feel that it is a risk vs benefit issue

[skippydiesel]

5 hours ago, Geoff_H said:

I have been researching the aircraft for a while.  Two problems, is it repairable with moulds and where could I store and where could I repair aircraft.  Limited workshop space, completed aircraft will not fit in my garage.  Started researching a few weeks before covid lockdown, about to go to the Oaks for research.  Then lockdown. I will resume after lockdown.  No point trying to remotely solve issues.

A quick search will give you the dimensions of the assembled aircraft, from which you can infer the wings off dimension and from that some idea in how much room you will need to work on it - I did a big reno on my Zephyr 5 years ago - built a temporary  dust controlled room (can send photos) if memory serves 8 x 3 x 2 m.

 

Zephyr requires no molds - other aircraft may.

 

The aircraft is repairable - again happy to send photos of poor thing on ground and any close ups you might want.

 

Please do not ask for a heap of information if you are just curios

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, Student Pilot said:

I have been trying to sell a disassembled aircraft for ages. A 172D in pieces. The aircraft has an STC to fit a 180HP engine. The aircraft is complete without an engine. The STC includes new prop and engine mount. I was asking 15K (the STC is worth more than that) all I got was tyre kickers, time wasters. While not a kit aircraft it's cheaper than any kit.

Not an expert but would not a C172 (certified aircraft), require a LAIM to repair it?

 

If I am correct - only a LAIM could afford to do a love job (without pay). Anyone else will have to pay the LAIM and its labour (not parts cost) which "kills" such projects.

 

Kit/Experimental aircraft can usually be worked on by the owner (no pay), with oversight by a suitably qualified person. This makes them a viable proposition for the enthusiast/person wanting to get into ownership cheaply or upgrade to a more capable aircraft..

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, Geoff_H said:

At the end of the day I feel that it is a risk vs benefit issue

Always and very much in the "eye of the beholder"

[RossK]

What is a project worth?

As someone who has bought project cars and boats, this is how I value them;

A = the cost of buying a similar car/boat/aircraft in servicable condition

B= the cost of bringing the project to an equivalent serviceable condition

C= Discount to make the project attractive 

D= project buy price

D=A-B-C

 

ie, by the time I've finished the project it has to have cost less than buying a serviceable equivalent.

It's the Value of C that is up to individual buyers and sellers to negotiate

Edited July 26, 2021 by RossK

[skippydiesel]

RossK -

 

I agree with your philosophy - to a point.

 

You seem to have left out:- There are builder/renovators out there who just love the process of making something. The value of the project, at the end of the build, is secondary to the satisfaction/enjoyment of the build itself. How often have you seen an aircraft for sale - almost nil hours - "must make way for new project". 

[Geoff_H]

23 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

RossK -

 

I agree with your philosophy - to a point.

 

You seem to have left out:- There are builder/renovators out there who just love the process of making something. The value of the project, at the end of the build, is secondary to the satisfaction/enjoyment of the build itself. How often have you seen an aircraft for sale - almost nil hours - "must make way for new project". 

I could not agree more.  I love building and fixing things far more than flying.  I am a career engineer.  I was 14 when I found out what an engineer was, that was the moment I knew I was going to be.  Even in retirement I still love being an engineer.

[pmccarthy]

As another retired engineer with a shed full of restoration projects, I agree.

[RFguy]

D=A-B-C   ??   really  ?
What are the domains of A, B , C ? surely not unbounded ?
Not D = (a-a^2)*(b-b^2) + C ?
surely the result is quadratic ?
 

Edited July 26, 2021 by RFguy

[waraton]

24 minutes ago, RFguy said:

(b-b^2)

B is the same as a $100 hamburger - it's never $100....not even close!!!

[RFguy]

Oh right, B is for burger. Silly me. 

[Geoff_H]

What constitutes a tyre kicker?  Someone that looks but doesn't buy? I once bought an aircraft on first sight.  A stupid purchase.  These days I do much more research. Seen quite a few aircraft, only bought one.  Sometimes one does research by seeing what is available and prices until a real bargain is discovered or that special aircraft is found.  

[spacesailor]

What about the seller having a change of heart.

I went from Sydney  to the outback, to see if an engine was in any usable condition. Only to be abruptly turned away.

The seller seemed upset that l had used the GPS to drive to his address in Leeton NSW.

spacesailor

[skippydiesel]

43 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

What about the seller having a change of heart.

I went from Sydney  to the outback, to see if an engine was in any usable condition. Only to be abruptly turned away.

The seller seemed upset that l had used the GPS to drive to his address in Leeton NSW.

spacesailor

Know how you feel - agreed price & conditions on an aircraft (subject to inspection) located NSW north west. Bags packed, flight bag chokas, maps, GPS, headset - the lot. Email from vendor - had gone flying, fallen in love with aircraft again, sale off.

[spacesailor]

At least you didn,t make that trip !.

I drove for hours from Sydney to Leeton, & never got to see the engine l wanted.

spacesailor

[Geoff_H]

Skippy you don't seem too keen to sell. Maybe you will do it yourself!  When lockdown is finished I will contact you to see if you are still selling.  If so I will go to the Oaks.

[skippydiesel]

6 hours ago, Geoff_H said:

Skippy you don't seem too keen to sell. Maybe you will do it yourself!  When lockdown is finished I will contact you to see if you are still selling.  If so I will go to the Oaks.

Its like this Geoff -Over the last 18 moths + , I have researched about 12 LS class aircraft that "grabbed my fancy". Of these I contacted about 1/2 of the vendors. I actually "checked out" (went and had a look) at three. They were geographically distributed in south Qld / north NSW & very far south NSW. The closest, to me, was 4.5 hrs away. No small commitment in time & money.

 

All of the following had passed through the financials negotiation stage and a price agreed.

 

• One failed the flight test due to CO poisoning - I was just too crook to negotiate, after the 30 minute flight (could have been longer but I felt so crook)to discuss anything. On reflection this was probably the best potential purchase - the CO problem  turned out to be easily fixed. Such is life.
• The next - had my bags packed, maps drawn on, electronic Nav flight plan entered and the vendor emailed me to say he had changed his mind - bitterly disappointed.
• The last - all agreed but the "broker" insisted on a sales contract, absolving every one (including me) of any responsibility for every possible situation, including the discharge of the sales contract itself - I refused to sign. Tried to negotiate directly with owner, no doubt he had been influenced by broker and would not get involved - no sale. Regretful but I wonder,  what defect in the aircraft, might have been hidden/avoided by the sales contract - did I actually escape a possible "lemon".

So, we arrive at this day and I am beginning to think, - if I had just got on with fixing my Zephyr, I would now be enjoying its superlative flight characteristics once again.

 

Latest fantasy is an RV4 for sale in Vic. Always liked them. Have had two wonderful flight in the same. One, over Lake Okanagan, BC Canada - from 50 ft above lake surface to 4000ft and some gentle aerobatics. The other, at The Oaks, NSW, - pristine home built, piloted by builder - again gentle aerobatics (not so low) and flight up to about the same 4000ft.

 

So yes, if matters aircraft do not get resolved very soon, Zephyr will not be for sale.

[Thruster88]

Get the RV4 Skip, you won't regret it. You only live once. Of course you would have to embrace that prehistoric technology residing up front😂. Good thing about the RV's it will be worth more when you sell it in the future.  

[Geoff_H]

I await your advice on availability, let me know.  I will suspend my research.

Cheers PS I still have not found a property to store my current project

[skippydiesel]

2 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

Get the RV4 Skip, you won't regret it. You only live once. Of course you would have to embrace that prehistoric technology residing up front😂. Good thing about the RV's it will be worth more when you sell it in the future.  

I do love my Rotax - please dont ask me to list the reasons why.

 

The RV 4 - really gets along but 32 L/hr and the rest ++++ if its opened up, the noise, vibration and a stall speed (best not say as I cant figure out how its RAA registered). Tempted though. Cant do anything until out of CV19 lockdown - will this ever end?