Bertorelli, et al, on the Vashon Ranger

[Garfly]

I wonder if any have been imported to Oz. 

Anyway, as usual, lots of interesting debate, pro and con, in the YouTube comments section.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.flyingmag.com/vashon-ranger-r7-reviewed/

 

 

 

Also more details about it in red750's post last year:

 

[onetrack]

The poor mans Cessna? The promoter doesn't seem too enthused about the O-200 powerplant, and appears to be keen to find a "better" engine. I'll wager that's all about a cheaper engine, and keeping costs down.

[Garfly]

Yeah, I get the impression that he wants more power for his float-plane version and a lighter engine to give the touring version a better useful load.  

 

I found these YouTube comments on Bertorelli's video interesting:

 

AeroGarage

3 years ago

Looks like a great aircraft. But come on, a "real airplane engine" ? The rotax is more than proven, and set aside the gearbox, which works fine, it looks all the same as "traditional" engines. I understand the motivation behind the use of an engine people are more familiar with, but people need to change their minds or we will keep complaining that our engines date back from 1950.

 

Andrew Morris

3 years ago

       ...  I fly behind a Rotax 912 ULS many hours a day and let me tell you it’s a wonderful aircraft engine. I’d take one over an O-200D any day! The 915 iS FADEC fuel injection, turbo 141 HP engine is just a work of art and as modern as you can get. That bare engine still weighs 14 lbs less than the lightened O-200D.

[kasper]

Hmmm.

600kg MTOW + 398kg Empty = 202kg for people AND fuel = far too heavy to be realistic/practical as an LSA.

 

Even shedding 20kg with a rotax swap you are not left with enough to be practical - 1 person plus good fuel or 2 people in the circuit.  Not gonna sell many with that as the operating envelope.

 

And given the Australian requirements of Empty + set KG people + set KG fuel based on power to get into RAAus its not going to appear here at all.

 

[Garfly]

Seems a bit like the C162 Skycatcher all over again.

 

This YT commenter sums it up well, though:

Darryl Braun

3 years ago

There seem to be a lot of negative comments on this aircraft. I was of the same opinion initially but then I started to think, you get a cantilevered wing, fully certificated aircraft for 100 grand, give or take, and it's got a good sized cabin, with an auto pilot. That's not too damn bad! Would I buy one, not on your life. I'd spend that kind of money on an experimental and get a hell of lot more performance, but this is an LSA and should be appreciated for what it is. This guy has a good start. I think he needs to remove the LSA limit and put 150 hp in the nose and get that useful load up to where it's actually useful. As a training and rental aircraft... I think he did a pretty damn good job!

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by Garfly

[Garfly]

Another report on it here (07:30 >> 11:30)

 

 

[marshallarts]

I quite like their approach.  I like the cantilever wing, the cavernous interior, and the robust build.  But the LSA MTOW limit is a serious limitation - maybe Vashon have designed this with an eye to a future weight increase for LSAs.  It seems like the airframe could almost certainly handle much more weight.  With a few more horsepower (Rotax 915is?) and a MTOW around 800 or 900kg, this would be very attractive - like a mini Glasair Sportsman.

[skippydiesel]

Lovely looking same old same old.

 

Why Oh Why do people just reinvent the spade. It doesnt make sense - we have had, for many years now (mainly European) aircraft with way way better performance all round (both ends of the envelope) using the humble Rotax 912 and even geniuses like Robin Austen demonstrating 175 knots using the same engine.

 

Are we all so conservative, with our aircraft selection, that breaking out of the 40 knot stall - 100 knot cruise air cooled donk, consuming 25 -30 litre per hour is just plan heresy???????

 

As for cost - even the base model, landed in Au, is going to set  you back $150-165 K and you can get much better performing, all round, aircraft in that price range. 

[Student Pilot]

200K? 

[Garfly]

Here's at least one happy camper, who argues the case for the O-200 in the US context..

(I'd skip the first 2 minutes of this vid to minimise the intro-hype of Mr. Salesman guy.)

 

 

[skippydiesel]

5 hours ago, Student Pilot said:

200K? 

Please expand

[rgmwa]

 Ken Kreuger was Vans chief aeronautical engineer up until a few years ago, and designed a number of the current range of RV's, so he knows a thing or two about aircraft design. I'm not particularly sold on the Vashon though, although I guess they've done their market homework.

[Student Pilot]

16 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Please expand

Is that what they cost? Seems the latest lot of lighter aircraft are well beyond the reaches of the common man. Aviation has never been so expensive, the realm of the very well off.

Good news is very basic flying is still cheap, you can buy the likes of a Thruster for 10K? 

[onetrack]

Can't say I'm overly impressed with the cantilever wing. Eliminating the struts certainly does improve vision a little - but at what expense for wing strength?

It took me a long time to find the load factors for this aircraft, there's nothing in the advertising material, it's buried in the POH. The figures are +4.0g / -2.0g, which is not anywhere near as good as a lot of strutted-wing, cheaper aircraft.

 

One thing in the companys favour as regards ethics, is that they refuse to take any money, until your ordered aircraft is ready for you.

That is unbelievable in this day and age of corporate shafting of everyone you deal with - taking the money and never delivering the promised product, is de rigeur for so many of these startup manufacturers.

[Zoso]

By a huge percentage, aircraft of every type use cantilever wings. Many high wing aircraft use struts because they are taking advantage of that particular configuration for their speed/load envelope.

 

I've flown the Ranger, I've personally toured the Vashon factory and am quite satisfied with the stone cold reliable 0-200. I grew up around GA, owned stuff from a Cub, Stearman and a Bellanca Viking. The Ranger is a well conceived airplane with a reputable owner and clever designer. I have one on order and look forward to being another airline pilot who is happy his Ranger. 

 

As to gross weight, yes, that is an arbitrary LSA limitation. Make no mistake, the Vashon Ranger is quite capable. Hopefully, MOSAIC rulemaking will bring some logic to this category since it currently is not based upon individual capability and doesn't add to the safety of this segment of aircraft. 

[Garfly]

I understand that the cantilever wing was a major criterion for the CEO John Torode because - being "a floatplane guy" - he had his water-borne version in mind. (I understand, among other reasons, because it makes it easier to sidle up to a jetty.)  Had he relented on that idea he could have saved weight on a lighter wing structure. Anyway, for land-lubbers it sure makes for beautiful views out the window.

 

And, yes, by going with the Rotax he could have saved more weight but he knew that US A&Ps knew and loved Continentals a lot more than light-weights from the, er ... Continent.

 

I'd say that, first and foremost, this was a passion project for Torode who seems to have wanted a fun way to plow some of the profits from his Dynon venture back into aviation. And the Ranger's fully integrated electronics - including AP - does end up being a major selling point.

 

He says he was regretful that, in the end, he couldn't make it all work as a $75,000 aircraft.  I'm sure he's sincere about his wish to make flying feasible for the non-rich, young and old.

 

All designs are compromises.  The high wing Brumby, too, ended up a bit on the heavy side for its own (marketing) good. But I do get the feeling that the Ranger will succeed as a trainer/LSA in the US.  And it's clear that the basic idea is destined to be developed for other purposes.  I see they are already making an IFR capable version.  I guess they reckon it'll be a good and cheap platform for instrument training.  But they need to incorporate a Garmin box to make that work because Dynon don't make a certified ILS unit.

[skippydiesel]

Where do you get the idea that this is a cheap aircraft - the dollars are American. By the time convert to $AU ,you add freight/delivery, GST on the lot, it will be about $150/160 Au. At this price you can purchase a whole range of aircraft that equal/exceed the performance of the Vashon Ranger.  Most will be Rotax powered (so cheaper running cost), some Jab and  many composite, - less maintenance.

 

I have no doubt that this is a good solid aircraft BUT in my mind does not present as an advancement of any kind - just stuck in the past.

 

Do the Yanks have high performing, factory built, aircraft, in the 80-120hp range,  comparable to what is coming out of Europe ???

 

In kits, Sonex/Sonerai are the only aircraft,  that come to mind, that seem to approach European innovation.

 

Even Au does it better with the Jabiru range.

[Garfly]

Who said it was a 'cheap aircraft'?

My point was that even Torode was disappointed that he couldn't have turned it out cheaper, since that was one of the challenges he set himself (and not only as part of a business model). 

It's now over 100K for the base model. He said he'd been hoping to bring it in closer to 75K.

[Yes, of course these are USD.  Let's do our own maths - on a daily basis.]

 

Hey, as it happens, I'm satisfied with my fourth-hand rag and tube (Sky)Ranger worth maybe 10% of a nice new V-Ranger landed here. After all, with a 912 ULS, a BRS, a Kanardia PFD and 270Kg of useful load, and an honest 80Kts (okay, 75) who'd have a right to complain?  But hey, if I were a rich(er) man, deedle didle doo  ... a Vashon Ranger would seem to me both cheap and attractive - and good value. (And that AP would be soooo nice; all the more time to admire the gorgeous views.  ;- )

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Garfly

[Zoso]

My sincere apologies for speaking first and reading later (geez, I'm such a Yank). I didn't realize when I did a search and joined this discussion that this group was geographically down under.

 

In any case, air is air and we all enjoy a good flyer. The second biggest fly-in in the States is Sun n' Fun. I've been every year for 27 years and always check out the new aircraft. Here are some of the reasons I went with the Vashon Ranger;

 

- I've owned 4 old airplanes, I recently retired and wanted something I didn't have to build or spend a ton to upgrade. Speed was less important than economy of operation. ALL used airplanes have needs, then add in the cost to upgrade to big screen avionics and things can get truly ugly.

- I prefer low wings, but as you get older (my wife and I are both tall), climbing in becomes an issue. The Ranger is an easy airplane to crawl in & out of. I also live in a sub tropical area and flying under a plastic bubble is too dang HOT!!! A high wing airplane offers a bit of welcome shade and a better view.

- The Ranger has room to spare and I'll give up a bit of ramp appeal for the larger cabin volume.

- I've watched numerous aircraft companies come and go as they burn deposits to keep things running and inevitably fail. Some attractive E. European products fall in to this category and then support domestically becomes iffy at best. 

- Vashon is a venture of the founder of Dynon, which by itself is an amazing product. Talk to Mr. Torode and you will share his vision.

- I would never buy an airplane from someone who hasn't done this before, Ken Krueger has been around and knows what makes a good airframe.

- It's all metal, destruction tested (I've seen video of this) and finished to a high standard.

 

I could go on, but for my second post I haven't earned the right to be too expansive. If any of you fella's ever come to Sun n' Fun send me a pm.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

8 minutes ago, Zoso said:

My sincere apologies for speaking first and reading later (geez, I'm such a Yank). I didn't realize when I did a search and joined this discussion that this group was geographically down under.

 

In any case, air is air and we all enjoy a good flyer. The second biggest fly-in in the States is Sun n' Fun. I've been every year for 27 years and always check out the new aircraft. Here are some of the reasons I went with the Vashon Ranger;

 

- I've owned 4 old airplanes, I recently retired and wanted something I didn't have to build or spend a ton to upgrade. Speed was less important than economy of operation. ALL used airplanes have needs, then add in the cost to upgrade to big screen avionics and things can get truly ugly.

- I prefer low wings, but as you get older (my wife and I are both tall), climbing in becomes an issue. The Ranger is an easy airplane to crawl in & out of. I also live in a sub tropical area and flying under a plastic bubble is too dang HOT!!! A high wing airplane offers a bit of welcome shade and a better view.

- The Ranger has room to spare and I'll give up a bit of ramp appeal for the larger cabin volume.

- I've watched numerous aircraft companies come and go as they burn deposits to keep things running and inevitably fail. Some attractive E. European products fall in to this category and then support domestically becomes iffy at best. 

- Vashon is a venture of the founder of Dynon, which by itself is an amazing product. Talk to Mr. Torode and you will share his vision.

- I would never buy an airplane from someone who hasn't done this before, Ken Krueger has been around and knows what makes a good airframe.

- It's all metal, destruction tested (I've seen video of this) and finished to a high standard.

 

I could go on, but for my second post I haven't earned the right to be too expansive. If any of you fella's ever come to Sun n' Fun send me a pm.

 

 

Hi Zoso -  Just having such an articulate opinion is always worth having/listening to. So WELCOME!

 

Speed. When talking aircraft -  speed/fuel consumption/hr is a measure of econamy (efficiency of the engine/airframe package) . EG You want a high wing for a host of very good reasons - Check out the Pipistrel Virus SW (Rotax 912ULS) can cruse at 145 knots @ 19L/hr, throttle back to 120 knots and you will be using about 16 L/hr. 100 knots about 13L/hr. Has a low low stall of about 30 knots (excellent short field performance & safety). Composite airframe for minimal maintenance and low internal noise level. Examples of this aircraft have circumnavigated the Globe & won the CAFE Challenge. Have no idea what the USA price is but probably higher then the Vashon. Pipistrel have been around for many many years, so you wont have any purchase/back up issues.

 

My opinion - Makes the Vashon look look dated, and will out performed it on just about every parameter.

 

Note: I am not a Pipistrel agent , nor do I derive any financial interest/benefit from this company.

[Zoso]

I'll have to lay down my full frame in the "dated" Ranger and mull over your musings followed by a nice nap.

(jesting of course as the Pipistrel's are nice).

 

& what is up with the name Virus that I'm losing in translation? The name alone is a non starter over here.

[Garfly]

BTW Zoso,  I have a feeling I've seen you before somewhere  ... did you ever dream of living in a corridor?  

 

 

 

[Zoso]

Hilarious that! Let's just all agree to live in the sky, that will do.

[Garfly]

Aye, we're mooch 'appier up there ... even in't rolled up bit o' rag, held together by a few old tubes.  ;- )

 

BTW what equipment did you use at your day job?

 

[skippydiesel]

Virus - agreed, not the best name in a CV19 pandemic but then Vishon doesnt exactly have the greatest ring to it either.

 

Who cares about the name - if it fly's great, you have it all.