OzRunways Airspace Boundary Display Seems a Bit Broken

[APenNameAndThatA]

As you know, if you long press on the/a map, a list of airspaces at that point show up. If you select one, the boundaries of that space will be shown on the map. Contents of email I just sent to OzR is as follows. Pls correct me if I am wrong.

 

Please tell us about your experience with OzRunways:

 

As you know, you can long tap the map and get the option to display the boundaries of the airspaces at that point. My concerns are as follows.

1. The documentation does not say what selecting the different spaces will display.

2. I am not surprised because embarrassment because of the following

3. CTR should display C and D, but hardly displays anything

4. HFA does not display anything. And it’s for emergencies!

5. ATC seems to only be high

6. TMA displays nothing

7. ATZ displays nothing

8. There is no option to only display areas at or below, say 9900 feet AMSL. 

9. You should tell people who are unsure to also tick EFREQ and FIA. 

 

Also, I told you a year ago that your great circle distance returned the same distance as the rhumb distance and you still haven’t fixed or ‘disabled’ the feature. 

[Garfly]

Sorry, I don't understand the problems you're having at all.

But I'm sure the support team will get back to you on them.

[APenNameAndThatA]

18 hours ago, Garfly said:

Sorry, I don't understand the problems you're having at all.

But I'm sure the support team will get back to you on them.

So yours works properly? 

[Garfly]

Well, yes, mine works properly but it seems my expectations are very different to yours.

I don't really understand why you are so focussed on that particular - scarcely necessary - special feature (i.e long press to bring up list of airspace overlays). I've never bothered with it much, myself, because it's mainly there for the benefit of professionals boring holes in the flight levels. The only item of interest to us, as far as I can tell, is the last one on the pop-up list, the FIA station/frequency for that area. But there are other ways to keep track of that info anyway. (As discussed above.)

 

In any case, I'd have thought it almost impossible for any mapping app to give you what you seem to want; how can a complex inverted wedding cake structure be illustrated by a single top-down, layer-view alone.  But then, that's what the charts, themselves, are for - and why we learn to decipher their secrets. All the information you seek is on them - or, if not, in ERSA, AIPs, CAAPs etc. - and, as it happens - all of those resources are right there, at our fingertips, in the app. What's not to love? What's more to want?

 

Actually, if you experiment with Terrain View you can, indeed, have your flight-path represented as a side-view, as you negotiate a safe path between terrain below and airspace above.  But features like this are all just nice to have extras, which proper planning (and a bit of good luck) most of the time, obviates the need for.  

 

To me a really great feature is the real time display of PRDs; those which are active and those that are de-activated (represented by a pink overlay). It needs internet access but when it's working it can be a big help for anyone traversing complex prohibited airspaces. Needless to say, double checking with Centre and/or Notams is always prudent. (Did we mention the Notams accessible via SmartBrief?  ;- )

 

I guess I just don't understand what you want and expect from the app.  I, for one, am pretty happy with what the software-geek/pilots at OzRWYs and AvPlan are doing to make our aviating less stressful and more safe. And, to tell the truth, it strikes me a little tough to bang on about Great Circles and Rhumb Lines. Maybe I'm missing something but I can't say it's a problemo I've ever faced. But then the Skyranger runs out of puff well before the flat earth starts into curving a lot.  

 

Anyway, good luck with your trip; good that compass, map and clock - which, I gather, you're actually planning to use  - still works well, in case you still can't get no satisfaction.  ;- )

 

 

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 18/07/2021 at 6:53 PM, Garfly said:

Well, yes, mine works properly but it seems my expectations are very different to yours.

I don't really understand why you are so focussed on that particular - scarcely necessary - special feature (i.e long press to bring up list of airspace overlays). I've never bothered with it much, myself, because it's mainly there for the benefit of professionals boring holes in the flight levels. The only item of interest to us, as far as I can tell, is the last one on the pop-up list, the FIA station/frequency for that area. But there are other ways to keep track of that info anyway. (As discussed above.)

 

In any case, I'd have thought it almost impossible for any mapping app to give you what you seem to want; how can a complex inverted wedding cake structure be illustrated by a single top-down, layer-view alone.  But then, that's what the charts, themselves, are for - and why we learn to decipher their secrets. All the information you seek is on them - or, if not, in ERSA, AIPs, CAAPs etc. - and, as it happens - all of those resources are right there, at our fingertips, in the app. What's not to love? What's more to want?

 

Actually, if you experiment with Terrain View you can, indeed, have your flight-path represented as a side-view, as you negotiate a safe path between terrain below and airspace above.  But features like this are all just nice to have extras, which proper planning (and a bit of good luck) most of the time, obviates the need for.  

 

To me a really great feature is the real time display of PRDs; those which are active and those that are de-activated (represented by a pink overlay). It needs internet access but when it's working it can be a big help for anyone traversing complex prohibited airspaces. Needless to say, double checking with Centre and/or Notams is always prudent. (Did we mention the Notams accessible via SmartBrief?  ;- )

 

I guess I just don't understand what you want and expect from the app.  I, for one, am pretty happy with what the software-geek/pilots at OzRWYs and AvPlan are doing to make our aviating less stressful and more safe. And, to tell the truth, it strikes me a little tough to bang on about Great Circles and Rhumb Lines. Maybe I'm missing something but I can't say it's a problemo I've ever faced. But then the Skyranger runs out of puff well before the flat earth starts into curving a lot.  

 

Anyway, good luck with your trip; good that compass, map and clock - which, I gather, you're actually planning to use  - still works well, in case you still can't get no satisfaction.  ;- )

 

 

 

 

Well, one of the reasons is that I am using the app backwards. That is, using the airspace function to teach me about airspace. I figure, if there is an acronym to do with airspace then I should know what it means. None of the meanings of the acronyms were explained in the documentation. It turns out that two of them are not even used in Australia. 

 

As for what I am interested in, I need to be able to see any airspace below 10 000 feet that is not marked on the hybrid visual map. That means that I need to be able to see Class FIA and a little Class E. I need to be able to see controlled airspace but that is on the hybrid map (except for a little around Alice Springs!). 

 

 I also don't think that it is too much to ask that the documentation contains the following, that support sent me. 

 

CTR is the zone, that goes from ground level. 

CTA is the other controlled areas. 

TMA is not used in Australia

ATZ is not used in Austrlia

 

My HFA still does not work. That is a genuine bug. Also, the HFA does not state the frequency that is used. 

 

In some ways, my expectations are actually LOWER than the developers. They have put things in that I would not have worried about and some of the things are broken. I didn't ask for rhumb lines vs great circle lines. They did that themselves and it was broken!  Also, they have made a classic software developer mistake of putting out new versions before they have fixed the bugs in what they have already produced. That causes what developers call a tech debt. That is, you already have bugs, and then you add more features, you are likely to produce more bugs, have even more bugs and have things harder to sort out. 

 

OzRunways has another bug that I did not mention to you. I submitted a flight plan (I got an email back to say that it was successful) but the weather a) had not updated and b) had not said that it had not updated. I was looking at the Smart Briefing as if it was today, but it was from several days ago. If I had not checked the dates, I would not have known. That is actually a dangerous bug. So, I am a very junior pilot and I have found *three* *actual* bugs in the software. That is not good. There are probably more. 

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 18/07/2021 at 6:53 PM, Garfly said:

Well, yes, mine works properly but it seems my expectations are very different to yours.

I don't really understand why you are so focussed on that particular - scarcely necessary - special feature (i.e long press to bring up list of airspace overlays). I've never bothered with it much, myself, because it's mainly there for the benefit of professionals boring holes in the flight levels. The only item of interest to us, as far as I can tell, is the last one on the pop-up list, the FIA station/frequency for that area. But there are other ways to keep track of that info anyway. (As discussed above.)

 

In any case, I'd have thought it almost impossible for any mapping app to give you what you seem to want; how can a complex inverted wedding cake structure be illustrated by a single top-down, layer-view alone.  But then, that's what the charts, themselves, are for - and why we learn to decipher their secrets. All the information you seek is on them - or, if not, in ERSA, AIPs, CAAPs etc. - and, as it happens - all of those resources are right there, at our fingertips, in the app. What's not to love? What's more to want?

 

Actually, if you experiment with Terrain View you can, indeed, have your flight-path represented as a side-view, as you negotiate a safe path between terrain below and airspace above.  But features like this are all just nice to have extras, which proper planning (and a bit of good luck) most of the time, obviates the need for.  

 

To me a really great feature is the real time display of PRDs; those which are active and those that are de-activated (represented by a pink overlay). It needs internet access but when it's working it can be a big help for anyone traversing complex prohibited airspaces. Needless to say, double checking with Centre and/or Notams is always prudent. (Did we mention the Notams accessible via SmartBrief?  ;- )

 

I guess I just don't understand what you want and expect from the app.  I, for one, am pretty happy with what the software-geek/pilots at OzRWYs and AvPlan are doing to make our aviating less stressful and more safe. And, to tell the truth, it strikes me a little tough to bang on about Great Circles and Rhumb Lines. Maybe I'm missing something but I can't say it's a problemo I've ever faced. But then the Skyranger runs out of puff well before the flat earth starts into curving a lot.  

 

Anyway, good luck with your trip; good that compass, map and clock - which, I gather, you're actually planning to use  - still works well, in case you still can't get no satisfaction.  ;- )

 

 

 

 

Actually, on the subject of documentation, I thought that if I could not tell the difference between CTR and CTA then that was on me because I don’t know enough about flying. On reflection, I am in Australia, and two of the acronyms were not used in Australia. That means that there was no source that I could go to to look up the meanings. The meanings will/ differ depending on what country you are in. That means that the meaning of the acronyms should have been in the documentation. 

[Garfly]

Well, it's good that support got back to you quickly to stop you worrying unnecessarily about some of your issues, at least.

 

I've also found them very responsive and helpful.

 

As to the out-of-date GAF-period problem; the official video documentation (below) explains how to make sure you're always working with current info.  See from around 03:00.  So I don't think what you describe is a bug but I believe they're planning to make SmartBrief even more user-friendly in future versions.

 

You might be overthinking the whole nav thing. I reckon your plan to go with paper only, to start with, is a good one. Down the track you might return to iPad nav more favourably disposed.

 

 

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

The issue was that the data could not update. My login details were rejected. When I logged in, after some difficulty, OzR went back to functioning normally. 

 

BUT

 

I didn’t know about tapping and dragging on the box like you mentioned! Which is interesting. It would not have worked, I expect because the problem was related to my log in credentials. 

 

OzR support did not mention what you mentioned. I believe that the software is supposed to update every time you open the program. That is what has happened every time before and since. 

 

AND 

 

You are not the first person who has told me I overthink things. 

[Garfly]

Ha, ha ... it takes one to know one, as they say.

 

By the way, most of what I have learned about using the app (which is far from everything) is from trying it out on trips in the simulator mode - in conjunction with X-Plane Flight Simulator.

 

You might have noticed in the screen shots I posted in your earlier thread ( Charts where there is no VTC or VNC.) the purple coloured background of the Data fields (HUD). That's to alert you that you are in simulator mode (normally it's black).

Edited July 20, 2021 by Garfly

[Garfly]

 

 

On 19/07/2021 at 9:35 PM, APenNameAndThatA said:

My HFA still does not work. That is a genuine bug. Also, the HFA does not state the frequency that is used. 

By the way, does HFA refer to HF radio comms ?  So you have a HF radio in your aircraft?

 

If so, might this help?

 

http://www.swld.com.au/pages/air_civil_aus.htm

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 21/07/2021 at 5:06 PM, Garfly said:

 

 

By the way, does HFA refer to HF radio comms ?  So you have a HF radio in your aircraft?

 

If so, might this help?

 

http://www.swld.com.au/pages/air_civil_aus.htm

No I don’t (I know). But the HF frequencies are in the Planning Map and the ERSA, both of which are in the app. 

[APenNameAndThatA]

HF probably stands for HF Area I suppose. 

 

OzR said they will add info to the docs. That is the advantage of whinging instead of being resourceful and stoic. 

[Garfly]

See, PenName ... you're over-thinking things again!!  ;- )    

 

(And the Support team are being very patient.  LOL)

 

There are worse things to have broken than your HFA (whatever it means).

 

Most likely you'll never use HF in your career.  It's not installed in a lot of recreational aircraft these days. Remote areas still make use of HFs long range capabilities. It's still commonly used in PNG.

 

https://vfrg.casa.gov.au/pre-flight-planning/preparation/radio-communications-requirements/

 

Don't you have an instructor to put your mind at ease on some of this stuff?  I find them pretty useful for that purpose.  

Edited July 22, 2021 by Garfly

[APenNameAndThatA]

I prefer that software works properly. 

[Garfly]

Fair enough, but it'd be too bad if you exhausted your righteous indignation on non-issues.

[APenNameAndThatA]

And I had been so polite to you, too. 

[Garfly]

Sure, that's the least we should expect of each other. (Beyond a little gentle ribbing.  ;- )