New FAA restrictions on training in EABs (Federal Register 2021-14765)

[langted]

I haven't seen much on this yet, but  Essentially, the FAA has deemed it necessary to get a LODA (Letter of Deviation Authority) to conduct any compensated training in an EAB.  If you search for "LODA" on google or the EAA site, you will see a lot of info.  As Paraphrased in Flying magazine: 

 

"In effect, the agency seeks to limit the types of instruction that could be given in experimental aircraft, for example, to that of model-specific training, and not “permit flight training in experimental aircraft leading toward the issuance of a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege.”

 

To make matters worse, the FAA considers "compensated" training not only to include direct payment for services, but also less tangible rewards such as the instructor gaining logged hours or "anticipating" future revenue.   

 

This is a HUGE big deal for me, having just been granted an airworthiness certificate for my new Experimental with a new GTN650, in which I had planned to get an IFR ticket.   If I have to rent an airplane for the IFR training, I will just give it up, and I may have a brand new GTN650 Xi for sale and a big hole in my panel.

 

 

 

 

[langted]

Well, folks, I just waded through the long string in this US/Canada forum about "Trump wanted his personal pilot to head FAA"   A big "thank you" to the administrator for ending that painful string .. finally.   But, as a US citizen I am saddened at how obsessed you folks seem to be in expressing your vitriol about Trump in particular and US citizenry in general.   Not living here in the US, I guess it's easy for you to interpret our foibles based on the lens of your own experiences and history and what is reported to you.  Trump had a lot of exuberant die-hard supporters (for understandable reasons if you lived here), but even more "better than the other guy" type of support.   Together, these almost got him re-elected.   I voted for him once based on the "other" candidate, and once based on his general policies and numerous successes, while both times wincing at his blustering personal foolishness and bad judgement.  But personally seeing how the last election was conducted in our own neighborhoods, there are a lot of us that don't trust the election process anymore, nor do we trust government, and especially don't trust press coverage, much less "big tech".   In days past, news was reported based on being "newsworthy" (or at least that's what we thought).  Now stories on both sides are chosen for reporting (or not reported at all) based on which side the story supports   When reported, stories are blatantly slanted or directly falsified to further the desired narrative.   Bias is even worse on the internet, where followers get to add their OWN selective filtering.   I don't think its even possible to form an objective opinion anymore -- there is no reliable standard for self assessment.   It's no wonder that trust in the press in the US is under 20%, and it's clear which message you guys favor.   So lots of bad stuff -- riots in Seattle or riots in DC --  and extreme swings in the political pendulum occur as polarization deepens, mistrust is amplified and civility weakens.   We in the US almost universally hold you Australians in the very highest extreme of regard.  Sad it's not reciprocal.    

 

I'm done with that now.   Just wanted to get it out.      

Edited July 18, 2021 by langted
typo

[pmccarthy]

Some of us understand the problems of communication and the media. It is strange that a view can take hold on a forum like this and alternative views get crushed. Yet in a different forum, club or group, the opposite views hold sway. Rest assured most of us respect the USA and its people. Don't be put off by the few extremists, we have lost good contributors to rudeness before.

[Student Pilot]

2 hours ago, langted said:

 "I am saddened at how obsessed you folks seem to be in expressing your vitriol about Trump in particular and US citizenry in general.   

Funny how any Trump criticism is "Vitriol"  yet he can lie, cheat and try and steal the democratic election and that's just politics. The US is broken while ever Trump is touting his own version of "Demockracy"

[onetrack]

I don't think I'd be courageous enough to go on a public forum and admit that I voted for this narcissistic fool.

 

His Presidential legacy is an America more divided and abusive and intolerant than ever - and I believe that's what Trump revels in.

 

Outstanding previous Presidents of the U.S. - Harry Truman comes to mind - were true leaders who left America in better shape than it was handed to them in.

 

Trump doesn't know what true leadership is, he's too busy promoting himself and his businesses.

 

He considers himself the master of "deals", but there's not a single "deal" he organised, that has benefitted the American people, or stood up to a litmus test as an excellent piece of diplomatic negotiation.

[jackc]

The reasons Trump got elected originally was because the people were sick of the existing establishment and many before it.

They felt he may have been a possible solution to bring the country back to where it used to be AND what the people wanted.

The people wanted that and who could blame them?  Trouble was, there were no real options other than the unknown Trump.

Sadly, it crashed and burned 😞

 

[langted]

2 hours ago, jackc said:

The reasons Trump got elected originally was because the people were sick of the existing establishment and many before it.

They felt he may have been a possible solution to bring the country back to where it used to be AND what the people wanted.

The people wanted that and who could blame them?  Trouble was, there were no real options other than the unknown Trump.

Sadly, it crashed and burned 😞

 

Bingo !!

[RFguy]

(I am a US citizen).  Trump did do a couple a good things- he put pressure on pharma and hospitals to reduce prices in various ways. That is working...He also quasi stood up to china . Just he devalued democracy world wide . Don't get me started... Trump should and likely will get locked up.

 

Back to the topic. Experimental and home builds are not eligible for formal training activities in Australia either I thought ??? I'll have to look up the rules.  (certainly in RA, not so sure in VH). Not really sure why. If an experimental was L2+ / AME maintained I dont see what the problem is, especially if flying something a bit unusual (say a Delta) could be well aided by an experienced pilot instructor .

[facthunter]

There's limits on which planes can be used for basic training here also. Single seaters are an obvious problem. One off s also getting an endorsement. There are exemptions in many cases and sometimes a PPL can do  an endorsement. There just has to be some standard to protect Instructors  being pressured and students being exposed  to unproven and unsuitable planes There are exemptions where an owner who is also the constructor of a plane can be trained . and also warbirds are covered "somehow". .  Nev

[langted]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

...There just has to be some standard to protect Instructors  being pressured and students being exposed  to unproven and unsuitable planes There are exemptions where an owner who is also the constructor of a plane can be trained . and also warbirds are covered "somehow". .  Nev

In the US, as I understood the rules, the FAA has always inhibited using experimental aircraft for commercial profit.  That is, an instructor or flight school could not rent their own experimental to others for training, or use it for paid flight.  But previously, an owner could feely obtain dual training in it for himself.  Likewise, a flight instructor could train an owner, and be paid for his time.   I had a flight instructor at my local airport that was completely onboard with doing my IFR training in my new airplane before all this, but not anymore.   I hadn't considered an instructor being "pressured" into flying an unsafe aircraft, but I don't see how that "pressure" could be very effective.   And after all, if it is safe enough (or legally "OK") to take innocent unknowledgeable persons on board, why is it less safe to take along a paid aviation professional, that should be relatively capable of assessing the aircraft?   

 

But there's not much I can do except wait to see how it settles out.   Lots of upset folks.   

 

 

[jackc]

i have been told I can get a tailwheel endorsement to my RPC, in my 19 reg aircraft?

 

[RossK]

Looks like the FAA are adressing this promptly

LODA Experimental Instruction

I think the key is the aircraft can't be hired out.

[pmccarthy]

I wonder when a new rule is badly worded, do the employees get reamed out or do they get praised for adding to the confusion?

[langted]

 

On 19/07/2021 at 12:44 AM, RossK said:

Looks like the FAA are adressing this promptly

LODA Experimental Instruction

I think the key is the aircraft can't be hired out.

 

Exactly correct, I think.  

 

After settling down and reading the US Federal Register and related regulations/guidance in overall context, I think this is actually not the "big deal" that I originally thought it was,    Essentially, as I understand the genesis of the issue, the US FAA had a court case where a Warbirds organization was charging very high rates for "training" in their warbird(s), which also have restricted airworthiness certificates.  As I understand it, the price was really for the operating and maintenance costs, and was MUCH higher than prevailing instruction rates.   So, it appears that the group was exploiting the FAA's aircraft specific "training" exception.   The FAA took them to task and the case went to court.  There, the judge upheld the FAA, but pointed out a discrepancy between regulations that restricted training, and FAA guidance that permitted it.   So the new LODA is a way to legally allow exceptions, and they issued it quite quickly without public comment (which was not required for this).   Since it came up quickly and communications were perhaps a bit delayed, it was rife for misinterpretation.   Reading in full context, the FAA is NOT trying to upset the apple cart, but rather to keep it upright.   

 

At least that's how I see it now.    

 

So, I applied for my own own "LODA", and presumably, all will be well for me once I have it in hand.   One of my friends was quite "on the ball" and applied the day the federal register entry was issued -- he received his LODA in 3 days!  Of course now, the pipeline is probably a bit more choked, but they're trying.