Munger Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 Morning All, In the Northern Rivers of NSW, we have a situation that is close to every aviators heart: Local council having a go at aviators because we are an easy target..... ONE aircraft noise winger (Judith Forsyth), who moved to our community about a year ago, has managed to get into the ear of a few councilors and now the whole airport and peoples livelihoods could go up in smoke. Izaac from Fast Aviation has put out a petition with a very detailed description of what is going on to assist business at Lismore Airport and taking aim at the ridiculous landing fees. The link is: https://www.change.org/p/lismore-city-council-provide-support-for-businesses-at-lismore-airport?cs_tk=AtkOBv7K2BaJSC_v-mAAAXicyyvNyQEABF8BvEETZtNUdhfVozQxUYWF8so%3D&utm_campaign=0e2a59f104804f9cbfd4c794ee40f289&utm_content=initial_v0_2_0&utm_medium=email&utm_source=recruit_sign_digest&utm_term=cs If you are unimpressed by the way Lismore City Council is administering the district, or simply sick and tired of the abuse we cop from aircraft noise lobbies, please consider signing it and passing it on to as many people as you can. Andy 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 28 minutes ago, Munger said: Morning All, In the Northern Rivers of NSW, we have a situation that is close to every aviators heart: Local council having a go at aviators because we are an easy target..... ONE aircraft noise winger (Judith Forsyth), who moved to our community about a year ago, has managed to get into the ear of a few councilors and now the whole airport and peoples livelihoods could go up in smoke. Izaac from Fast Aviation has put out a petition with a very detailed description of what is going on to assist business at Lismore Airport and taking aim at the ridiculous landing fees. The link is: https://www.change.org/p/lismore-city-council-provide-support-for-businesses-at-lismore-airport?cs_tk=AtkOBv7K2BaJSC_v-mAAAXicyyvNyQEABF8BvEETZtNUdhfVozQxUYWF8so%3D&utm_campaign=0e2a59f104804f9cbfd4c794ee40f289&utm_content=initial_v0_2_0&utm_medium=email&utm_source=recruit_sign_digest&utm_term=cs If you are unimpressed by the way Lismore City Council is administering the district, or simply sick and tired of the abuse we cop from aircraft noise lobbies, please consider signing it and passing it on to as many people as you can. Andy Andy, this is a planning issue so you would need to check what exactly is happening. An individual making a lot of posts on FB has no impact on an Airport If the person is putting up a Planning Amendment to change the Use of the airport, you need to respond. If the Airport has Existing Use Rights under the Planning Sheme, that's usually the end of any proposed change; aircraft make noise. Beware of any invitation by the Council to take part in any "Operating Policy", " Precinct Plan" or one of a million other words where the owner/operator is asked to participate in consultations for the adoption of the Plan, because if you do you give up your watertight Existing Use Rights. If the owner and Opertor of the Airfield are unsure of what is happening they should hire a planning Consultant. 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossK Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 Go to the Petition via this Clickable Link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munger Posted July 21, 2021 Author Share Posted July 21, 2021 1 hour ago, turboplanner said: this is a planning issue Thank you for the heads up. We will dive into it a bit deeper now that the issue has blown up. While I tend to agree that a few FB posts in conjunction with a poorly supported petition should not make a difference, we have to consider that this one person has managed to influence our green counselors here. This coupled with the incompetent management of the LGA has slowly destroyed this airfield. It would be an expansive story starting in the 80's if I covered it all and who has time to read all of that! 🙂 If anyone else has some experience on a similar matter, I (and we at the Lismore Airport Users Group) would really appreciate your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munger Posted July 21, 2021 Author Share Posted July 21, 2021 1 hour ago, RossK said: Go to the Petition via this Clickable Link Thanks! I should have html'ed my link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossK Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, Munger said: Thank you for the heads up. We will dive into it a bit deeper now that the issue has blown up. While I tend to agree that a few FB posts in conjunction with a poorly supported petition should not make a difference, we have to consider that this one person has managed to influence our green counselors here. This coupled with the incompetent management of the LGA has slowly destroyed this airfield. It would be an expansive story starting in the 80's if I covered it all and who has time to read all of that! 🙂 If anyone else has some experience on a similar matter, I (and we at the Lismore Airport Users Group) would really appreciate your input. Get in touch with Ben Morgan at AOPA. He's being helping a few regional airfields with similar issues. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munger Posted July 21, 2021 Author Share Posted July 21, 2021 19 minutes ago, RossK said: Ben Morgan at AOPA Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 22 hours ago, turboplanner said: If the Airport has Existing Use Rights under the Planning Sheme How do you determine whether "the airport has Existing Use Rights under the Planning Sheme"? Thanks, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 Have a look at this document, which has since been adopted by council with some amendments. It may be a model for what is needed. https://www.mrsc.vic.gov.au/files/assets/public/council/news/your-say/draft-kyneton-airfield-master-plan-2019.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 8 minutes ago, Bill said: How do you determine whether "the airport has Existing Use Rights under the Planning Sheme"? Thanks, Bill 1. Find out when the airfield first started. 2. Find out which City or Shire its in 3. Find the Department which handles Planning in NSW 4. Within the Department website there will be Planning Schemes you can download> Search for Shire or City of XXXX planning Scheme 5. Download the planning Scheme .pdf file 6. Search for Existing Use Rights. There should be a definition there somewhere. If it has different meanings in different Zones find our what Zone the Airport is, usually on the Department's website in Online Maps or similar description. When you put in the address i.e. say 526 Main Road Mainsville (not Lismore Airport), a map will come up showing the airport and you will see the zones or can switch the map to show them. You can then check "Existing Rights in a Farm Zone etc) if the Existing rights vary by zone. 7. If Existing Rights don't come up in your local Planning Scheme, then Search for Existing Rights Definition on the main Deoartment Planning website. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 21 minutes ago, pmccarthy said: Have a look at this document, which has since been adopted by council with some amendments. It may be a model for what is needed. https://www.mrsc.vic.gov.au/files/assets/public/council/news/your-say/draft-kyneton-airfield-master-plan-2019.pdf That's what I was warning about before. A Master Plan is usually a "start again" Plan. It can go well or badly depending on whether developers are involved. If you participate you're usually starting with what's acceptable to the residents that live around the Airport today, so discussions get started on start/finish times, noise levels, noise of cars coming to the airport etc. and you usually won't hear a word about all the warnings to people building around it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APenNameAndThatA Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 On 21/07/2021 at 9:33 AM, turboplanner said: Andy, this is a planning issue so you would need to check what exactly is happening. An individual making a lot of posts on FB has no impact on an Airport If the person is putting up a Planning Amendment to change the Use of the airport, you need to respond. If the Airport has Existing Use Rights under the Planning Sheme, that's usually the end of any proposed change; aircraft make noise. Beware of any invitation by the Council to take part in any "Operating Policy", " Precinct Plan" or one of a million other words where the owner/operator is asked to participate in consultations for the adoption of the Plan, because if you do you give up your watertight Existing Use Rights. If the owner and Opertor of the Airfield are unsure of what is happening they should hire a planning Consultant. If what you say is true (and it sounds it is) this could be the most important post on this site ever. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APenNameAndThatA Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 On 21/07/2021 at 8:55 AM, Munger said: Morning All, In the Northern Rivers of NSW, we have a situation that is close to every aviators heart: Local council having a go at aviators because we are an easy target..... ONE aircraft noise winger (Judith Forsyth), who moved to our community about a year ago, has managed to get into the ear of a few councilors and now the whole airport and peoples livelihoods could go up in smoke. Izaac from Fast Aviation has put out a petition with a very detailed description of what is going on to assist business at Lismore Airport and taking aim at the ridiculous landing fees. The link is: https://www.change.org/p/lismore-city-council-provide-support-for-businesses-at-lismore-airport?cs_tk=AtkOBv7K2BaJSC_v-mAAAXicyyvNyQEABF8BvEETZtNUdhfVozQxUYWF8so%3D&utm_campaign=0e2a59f104804f9cbfd4c794ee40f289&utm_content=initial_v0_2_0&utm_medium=email&utm_source=recruit_sign_digest&utm_term=cs If you are unimpressed by the way Lismore City Council is administering the district, or simply sick and tired of the abuse we cop from aircraft noise lobbies, please consider signing it and passing it on to as many people as you can. Andy From what Turbo said, you need to get competent legal advice ASAP and before you do anything. In my limited experience, you need a senior lawyer, with the right expertise, who really does know what they are talking about. Also in my limited experience, if you get advice from the lawyer and proceed on your own, your fees are reasonable. If you get the lawyer to go off and do things, or, worse still, have people communicate with the lawyer, fees get stupid and utility deteriorates fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 18 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said: From what Turbo said, you need to get competent legal advice ASAP and before you do anything. In my limited experience, you need a senior lawyer, with the right expertise, who really does know what they are talking about. Also in my limited experience, if you get advice from the lawyer and proceed on your own, your fees are reasonable. If you get the lawyer to go off and do things, or, worse still, have people communicate with the lawyer, fees get stupid and utility deteriorates fast. It all depends what is actually happening. At this stage the OP hasn't told us. If the Concil wants to come up with a Master plan, or change the Zoning, or change the Use, the starting point is a Planning Consultant. then he/she may kick it up to planning Lawyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 Whatever the approach, the reality is that council will reflect the views of residents. So, while legal precedence may be useful, a good relationship with residents and council is essential. That includes consideration of any ongoing costs, noise mitigation,community benefit and so on. It is the same in the mining industry, it doesn't matter how good your legal title might be, you have to work hard to maintain your social license to operate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 1 hour ago, pmccarthy said: Whatever the approach, the reality is that council will reflect the views of residents. So, while legal precedence may be useful, a good relationship with residents and council is essential. That includes consideration of any ongoing costs, noise mitigation,community benefit and so on. It is the same in the mining industry, it doesn't matter how good your legal title might be, you have to work hard to maintain your social license to operate. You wouldn't take it to VCAT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 VCAT would be a last resort. If it got that far, you have done something wrong in the community. Every activity has its crazy opponents, but a reasonable council will know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 1 hour ago, pmccarthy said: VCAT would be a last resort. If it got that far, you have done something wrong in the community. Every activity has its crazy opponents, but a reasonable council will know that. I just had a quick look through the MRSC Draft Kyneton Airfield Master Plan 2019 All the words have special meaning in Planning Terms. These would be the red flags for me. Aviation Suppor Factilities General Use Business Hub 45 m setback from runway 7 m height limit 9 m height limit Guideline A Managing Noise Noise level exceeding Contours for 60, 65, 70 dB(A) PSA (Public Safety Area) Risk level 1 in 100,000 Community Hub To attract more groups to airport AEO (Airport Environs Overlay) Industrial Businesses Warehousing Development Guideline Setbacks and heights 25 m from runway - 5 m height limit 35 m from runway - 7 m height limit 45 m from runway - 9 m height limit Will utilise Special Use Zone DDOZ (Design and Development Schedule 2 Will revise the existing DDO2 Secondary Noise Metric Analysiswill be undertaken AEO2 Schedule Area remapped Council has published an Operations Manual 2021 - Exhibit a planning Scheme Amendment to rezone 8 Rawson Place site SUZ and apply revised DDO and AEO overlays. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Page Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 On 21/07/2021 at 8:55 AM, Munger said: Morning All, In the Northern Rivers of NSW, we have a situation that is close to every aviators heart: Local council having a go at aviators because we are an easy target..... ONE aircraft noise winger (Judith Forsyth), who moved to our community about a year ago, has managed to get into the ear of a few councilors and now the whole airport and peoples livelihoods could go up in smoke. Izaac from Fast Aviation has put out a petition with a very detailed description of what is going on to assist business at Lismore Airport and taking aim at the ridiculous landing fees. The link is: https://www.change.org/p/lismore-city-council-provide-support-for-businesses-at-lismore-airport?cs_tk=AtkOBv7K2BaJSC_v-mAAAXicyyvNyQEABF8BvEETZtNUdhfVozQxUYWF8so%3D&utm_campaign=0e2a59f104804f9cbfd4c794ee40f289&utm_content=initial_v0_2_0&utm_medium=email&utm_source=recruit_sign_digest&utm_term=cs If you are unimpressed by the way Lismore City Council is administering the district, or simply sick and tired of the abuse we cop from aircraft noise lobbies, please consider signing it and passing it on to as many people as you can. Andy The airport was there well before all these do gooders turned up. When they bought there the airport was in full operation. Hence there before them or the real estate lied o them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munger Posted July 22, 2021 Author Share Posted July 22, 2021 Thank you all for your input. I have to say, that since my first say of flying more than 30 years ago, I have always had someone that complained about it (even when flying silent paragliders!) I think it is important that we start to take notice of just how powerful the single 'nutjob' with an internet connection can be: I think one of the problems is that we aviation enthusiasts have busy lives and more important things to do, so by default, the complainers get to run a muck. What would be a utopian dream is a legislation such as the primary producers have recently achieved, whereby you can not complain about the activities carried out when they have been established before you develop/reside there. Please keep the discussion going: It may help us and others in the future! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munger Posted July 22, 2021 Author Share Posted July 22, 2021 Just a quick clarification: We have two issues here... 1) The (green) councilors have voted a budget in that changed the fee structure of Lismore Airport (now $12.40 per landing) and removed an annual landing pass. This is what has driven Izaac's costs up by 3000% 2) We have an 'Reduce Aircraft Noise Over Lismore And Surrounding Areas' group, started during Covid by a retired school teacher who moved here from Sydney about a year ago. The first one is typical Lismore: Yes, we want your business, no we won't help you: Now pay up! As long as we have financially inept counselors (last 25 years), we are never going to shake this... The second is a bit more problematic in the long run: There is a professional people exodus from Lismore to Ballina. Hey, in the 90's we used to fly from Lismore to Ballina to get some quiet circuit time, now they come to Lismore because it's so busy over there. This has given rise to the Judith's in our community and some (IMHO) very irrational world views. You know the people I mean: 'You can't train pilots, but I expect the Air Ambulance to take me to Sydney when I need it'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munger Posted July 22, 2021 Author Share Posted July 22, 2021 Here is the link to the ABC radio interview with Izaac. The LCC spokes persons response left me speechless, especially considering that one of our Foxbat pilots here, who flies twice a week had a bill of over $1000 for the year, because nobody told him about the annual landing fee pass! Head to this link: Breakfast - Breakfast - ABC Radio Then scroll through to approximately the 46:30 mark (which equals about 7:20am this morning) you will hear your interview, followed by the Council spokesman. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 5 hours ago, Munger said: Just a quick clarification: We have two issues here... 1) The (green) councilors have voted a budget in that changed the fee structure of Lismore Airport (now $12.40 per landing) and removed an annual landing pass. This is what has driven Izaac's costs up by 3000% 2) We have an 'Reduce Aircraft Noise Over Lismore And Surrounding Areas' group, started during Covid by a retired school teacher who moved here from Sydney about a year ago. The first one is typical Lismore: Yes, we want your business, no we won't help you: Now pay up! As long as we have financially inept counselors (last 25 years), we are never going to shake this... The second is a bit more problematic in the long run: There is a professional people exodus from Lismore to Ballina. Hey, in the 90's we used to fly from Lismore to Ballina to get some quiet circuit time, now they come to Lismore because it's so busy over there. This has given rise to the Judith's in our community and some (IMHO) very irrational world views. You know the people I mean: 'You can't train pilots, but I expect the Air Ambulance to take me to Sydney when I need it'. I don't think you've mentoned what the structure of Lismore is: Council owned? Council managed? Privately owned and managed? This makes a difference, but you may have given a hint a few posts ago about "having more important things to do" If the aviators want to fly but don't want to manage costs or deal with people who don't understand that flying involves noise, but reasonable noise then this is eventually what you get. 1. Any operation has to cover its costs, so the question here is have the costs increased to the point where charges need to increase and if so why. That might seem obvious, but in plenty of cases Councils allocate costs unfairly to cover something they've caused. One case I know of is a Community Hub with a road and a bridge requested by a local agitator group, the road and bridge to save them 1 minute 98 seconds driving time at a cost of around $15 million, with that cost offset by a general slug of about $300.00 in rates across the community that will never use it. If it's something like that which has increased the costs the "busy" aviators need to focus on what is important to them and do something to stop it. I'm currently doing 3 am starts to address 5 different Planning issues in two Councils. In this case if you snooze you lose. If the Lismore cost increases relate to over-development of the site - some members can't help themselves asking for more and more - what could be dropped to avoid those increases while still being able to fly economically. 2. The noise issue should have been addressed by the aviators when it was first raised, and either Councillors advised it was a necessary part of an Airport, or if it was caused by a 182 leaving with WOT at 5 am each day, doing something about him. This is where the airfield beat ups, and 500 feet runs over the town which seem to be such fun for some people, put the whole lot out of business. I'm not saying that has happened at Lismore, just to do the basic checks first. "Amenity" is a planning term. In a Residential Zone there are rules which make it liveable and loosely you have an expectation that your amenity will not be interrupted by factories with angle grinders starting up at 7 am, trucks being loaded with freight, and so on. You can take an Amenity issue to Council and they will act on it. When they make a decision, they look at the Residential Zone and what uses are permitted, the Airfield and what is permitted in its Zone. In the case which Keith Page raised, where there was an airport, then people built houses around it and complained about the noise, they look at Existing Use Rights. It's one thing to start a petition and make a lot of noise in Council and even get a vote up in Council, but quite another to achieve the same result at an administrative appeals tribunal where the people are professionals. At that point, if you've done your homework, they will weigh the loss of Res Amenity against the Existing Use Right. I've seen a Petition in Scotland with 120,000 signatures from around the world including mine drop like a hot rock during the planning process - facts count a lot more. So you've got a lot of work for those "busy" aviators to do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 I agree with Turbs. One of the reasons our field is successful is the massive turnouts for working bees, so that council has no cost in its existence. It has a key local asset operating at no cost. And it is run very professionally, with no training allowed that isn’t locally based, no high-noise aircraft (except for during an air show) and careful noise mitigating circuits. It is all reflected in the master plan. The result - a supportive council and community. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munger Posted July 22, 2021 Author Share Posted July 22, 2021 4 hours ago, turboplanner said: I don't think you've mentoned what the structure of Lismore is: Council owned? Council managed? Privately owned and managed? Morning, Quick addendum: its $12.30 per landing, not $12.40 - sorry! Thank you for your input and pmccarthy for sharing your experience. The airport is council owned and operated. We have approached them at regular intervals over the last decade to allow local aviator participation in the upkeep and decision making of the airfield, something which was successfully done in the 80's and 90's by an aerodrome committee (which was disbanded by the council). All request have been turned down and it was not until recently that an Airport Coordinator was appointed to start addressing the long list of issues which have accumulated due to inaction over the last 15 years. One of the reasons we are angry about this change in the fee structure is the fact that local aviator philanthropy has been keeping the GA side of the airport in reasonable shape: mowed the roadways, graded the roads, swept the tarmac, killed the weeds, deal with noise complaints, provide security...you know, all that little stuff that rates and landing fees should cover. But now that we have an airport coordinator and the only airline left has pulled out, we cop it (after years of warning them).....so that is the emotional attachment to the subject or landing fees and the removal of annual passes for locals. But let's not start on the financial ineptitude of the LCC (there is a reason why we are #2 in NSW in terms of outstanding road repairs). In terms of aircraft noise: We try not to annoy people and as long as it is safe for us to do so; we avoid know hot spots. As much as I don't mind the roar of a well tuned engine, I will be the first to agree it shouldn't be at 3am on a Saturday morning (used to work at Sydney International). Personally, I have always put intake and exhaust silencers on my 'lawn mover engine' in the Drifter and ask others to do the same. Hey, I got exposed to Albion Park noise politics in the 00's when I was learning to fly trikes there....very sensitive. I guess that may be a case of confirmation bias for me. But this new group of Anti-aircraft noise ppl is something I have not experienced and I think it has something to do with Covid and more people staying at home. Irrationality seems to run wild here in Lismore at the moment. Thank you again for your input! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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