Please Support Lismore Airport...

[turboplanner]

9 hours ago, Munger said:

Really? We had the rescue helicopter move to the airport and have a landing pad up on the hospital roof...

There was a 2020 DA for the Rescue Base in South Lismore, and an Agreement discussed at the Council Meeting June 8, 2021 for operations, which discussed issues of noise, cultural Heritage and Licence Fee. There appears to have been an agreement to operate in the "Noise Abatement Zone"  (below cliff level).

 

Whatever was going on there could be useful information of what was at stake and how it was handled.

[Munger]

5 hours ago, turboplanner said:

"Noise Abatement Zone"  (below cliff level).

..that will be interesting!

 

Can I ask how you tracked down that info so quickly?

 

 

[turboplanner]

3 hours ago, Munger said:

..that will be interesting!

 

Can I ask how you tracked down that info so quickly?

 

 

Googled Development Applications + Lismore to see if there was anything current; it came up on google.

 

This also came up, you should be watching the council site weekly for DAs or Amendments open for public comment: https://tracker.lismore.nsw.gov.au/Home/Index

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by turboplanner

[Munger]

Thanks Turboplanner. I thought you may have some secrete squirrel sites 🙂

 

 I found the meeting of the 8th June , but did not find that reference. How did you find that?

 

While browsing through our councils expansive list of documents, I came across this 'Fly-Neighbourly-Guideline' (see attached PDF).

 

Fly-Neighbourly-Guideline.pdf

[kgwilson]

You must have missed it but i posted a link to the council page with the fly neighbourly guide info back on 23 July.

[Munger]

...woops! Thanks!

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, Munger said:

Thanks Turboplanner. I thought you may have some secrete squirrel sites 🙂

 

 I found the meeting of the 8th June , but did not find that reference. How did you find that?

 

While browsing through our councils expansive list of documents, I came across this 'Fly-Neighbourly-Guideline' (see attached PDF).

 

Fly-Neighbourly-Guideline.pdf 200.27 kB · 4 downloads

Where a Guideline like this fits into the Lismore Planning Scheme as as a Condition of Operation.

So if it isn't in the Planning Scheme now and someone wanted to come up with an Amendment to the Zoning and within that to require an Airport Master Plan, they might include the Fly Neigbourly Guideline as a Condition.

 

Planning always consists of a hierarchy of the vision for the area, then things that are desirable then things that aren't but might get up after some consultation then things that are prohibited.

 

Just because Kingsford Smith has a Master Plan doesn't mean that Lismore needs one, so that's the first thing to sort out, if it comes up and there are many reasons not to have one at a small airport.

 

Then to the "Fly Neighbourly Guideline":

1. Why does it say "Noise is an issue for airports?"

    It might be at Kingsford Smith, and it might be where there are heavy RPT eoperations, but it might not be at Lismore.

    Do we know? No we don't because no one yet has got off his bum and bought a noise meter.

    That could be a very expensive mistake.

 

2. There are other points which are anti-training.

 

This is not a good Guide at all  for the survival of training facilities long term, and can be brought out and used against you simply because its a Guide which exists and you're standing in the room without a document in your hand.

 

So, more work to be done now rather than later.

 

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Noise is ALWAYS and issue for airports and airstrips. Even a private strip with one or two flights a week can attract noise complaints. You have to anticipate this and actively manage to minimise noise.

[turboplanner]

5 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

Noise is ALWAYS and issue for airports and airstrips. Even a private strip with one or two flights a week can attract noise complaints. You have to anticipate this and actively manage to minimise noise.

What are the aircraft noise levels along Rawson Pl and Kyneton-Metcalfe Rd?

[Munger]

8 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

Noise is ALWAYS and issue for airports and airstrips.

Totally agree: Been flying for more than 30 years and even had noise complaints while flying a paraglider (glider, not motor)....there is always ONE! Problem is that with social media, that ONE now has the power to bully the many....

[Munger]

34 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

1. Why does it say "Noise is an issue for airports?"

Very good point. The wording of contentious issue documents has to be carefully considered. I am not sure that this was done by the council officer who published it. I will get in touch with the airport co-coordinator and suggest an amendment.

[turboplanner]

4 minutes ago, Munger said:

Totally agree: Been flying for more than 30 years and even had noise complaints while flying a paraglider (glider, not motor)....there is always ONE! Problem is that with social media, that ONE now has the power to bully the many....

Not if your Planning status is correct; they can kick and squeal and you don't have to do anything but operate because you have the Zoning to do so.

[turboplanner]

1 minute ago, Munger said:

Very good point. The wording of contentious issue documents has to be carefully considered. I am not sure that this was done by the council officer who published it. I will get in touch with the airport co-coordinator and suggest an amendment.

It needs a complete review and rewrite, but also you have to do that strategically, because people being people, your own people may well have been giving copies out without reading the contents. 

[Munger]

8 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Not if your Planning status is correct; they can kick and squeal and you don't have to do anything but operate because you have the Zoning to do so.

I would love to have your confidence in the process. So far, we have had one noise winger stir up the councilors (green/labor) and they voted to change the landing fee structure to our disadvantage (admitting it was a plot to lower traffic numbers) and pass a motion to review the airport....all without consultation of the stake holder. When the most active flying school on the field then tried to reason with them, he was told that his own figures are wrong, after a closed session workshop.....and we are also getting the 'we are developing an airport master plan'.

 

To me, that is a row of BIG red flags that something is seriously wrong...

 

 

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, Munger said:

I would love to have your confidence in the process. So far, we have had one noise winger stir up the councilors (green/labor) and they voted to change the landing fee structure to our disadvantage (admitting it was a plot to lower traffic numbers) and pass a motion to review the airport....all without consultation of the stake holder. When the most active flying school on the field then tried to reason with them, he was told that his own figures are wrong, after a closed session workshop.....and we are also getting the 'we are developing an airport master plan'.

 

To me, that is a row of BIG red flags that something is seriously wrong...

 

 

I think the problem is no one has started the process. I gave you the information on how to go about it, but I'm not getting any vibes that the aviation community is getting engaged.

[Munger]

On 22/07/2021 at 8:57 AM, turboplanner said:

Within the Department website there will be Planning Schemes you can download> Search for Shire or City of XXXX planning Scheme

Can you enlighten me what the 'planning Scheme' refers to with reference to the options below? Is it the LEP?

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, Munger said:

Can you enlighten me what the 'planning Scheme' refers to with reference to the options below? Is it the LEP?

I think you might have hit the bullseye there. Big changes coming to Lismore. I'll draft up a couple of pages on what I found;  Lismore Regional Airport mentioned about 14 times.

[Munger]

4 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

I think you might have hit the bullseye there. Big changes coming to Lismore. I'll draft up a couple of pages on what I found;  Lismore Regional Airport mentioned about 14 times.

That's awesome! Can you also let me know where you are finding this info, I want to learn how to track it down (pretty positive I will need that skill in future!)

[turboplanner]

.

8/8/21

Lismore Airport Changes

 

 

Congratulations, You were headed for the bullseye I think; 

 

On the NSW Department of Planning, Industry and Environment website, follow the arrow heads to get to the Airport plans.

 

In Planning, the State Government develops a vision and plan for the State; from that comes a vision and plan for each region; from that comes a vision and plan for each local government area which is usually developed by the Council using guidelines sent to them by the State Government.

 

It's usually the planning officers doing this development work, and they eventually put it before Councillors who vote on it, maybe change a few things then it goes  back to the Minister for planning.

 

This is the trail of links:

 

Plans for your Area > Regional Plans > North Coast > North Coast Region > Lismore Regional City Action plans >

 

“The Draft Lismore Regional City Action P7 Plan was on Public Exhibition from 17 May 21 until 15 June 21”

 

“All feedback is being closely considered in the drafting of the final RCAP that will be released later in the year.”  >

 

[Either you guys missed that or maybe the meeting you had was Community Consultation. I would still make a submission, quickly, but you need to get a Planning Consultant to do it, because they know all the signals, timings, what counts and what should be said to try to preserve what you have.]

 

RCAPS > draft Lismore RCAP > View the Exhibition documents. > Draft Regional City Action Plan 2036  >

 

Page 2

Item 2  Airport Industrial Estate [that doesn’t sound very good at all]  >

Fig.11 Urban renewal and release.

Item 2  Airport

 

Page 11

Lismore Regional Integrated Transport Network

“Support employment and industry growth of the airport precinct through an Airport Freight and Logistics Masterplan

 

Page 20

5.4       Investigate the potential for food processing [factories], packaging & distribution 1

[factories & trucks] in proximity to Lismore Regional Airport.

 

5.5       Investigate the potential of the airport as a training and export facility [non-aviation details follow]

            $1.8 million upgrade of Lismore Regional Airport + $4.4 million ILS, will attract more GA + ag flights + a new runway etc.

 

Page 21

Collaborative Opportunity 5

Guide future growth of the Lismore Airport facility precinct via an Airport & Logistics

Masterplan developed by Lismore City Council. Timing: long

 

[Munger]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

tem 2  Airport Industrial Estate [that doesn’t sound very good at all]

Yep, definitely missed some of this, but the Airport Industrial Estate is already in existence (houses the Westpac Rescue helicopter on the Airport side and is only one building wide strip that should never have been build due to the impact on the progression of flood waters in the are (and there is another long story behind how they screwed that one up!). That area is not really a threat to us (well, from a logical hydrology engineering perspective anyway)...coming to think of it, the airport has already been scarified as a flood causeway...wonder if they are thinking of sinking it further for some additional blocks (that would also influence existing infrastructure)....

 

Investigate the potential of the airport as a training and export facility [non-aviation details follow]

            $1.8 million upgrade of Lismore Regional Airport + $4.4 million ILS, will attract more GA + ag flights + a new runway etc.

 

That one is just hilarious considering that they bump up the charges to minimize the traffic.....I guess that is the difference between councilor and the professional staff...

 

Thank you for your effort!

[Munger]

2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Draft Regional City Action Plan 2036

https://www.planningportal.nsw.gov.au/lismoreRCAP

 

Is that the document you are looking at?

[turboplanner]

7 hours ago, Munger said:

https://www.planningportal.nsw.gov.au/lismoreRCAP

 

Is that the document you are looking at?

That's one of them. My previous post was to show the links on how to get the information.

You have a lot of work to do starting with identifying whether anyone else with a business has made any submission or intends to. Someone needs to present about 20 to 40 pages of submission assessing the Planning impacts from these proposals, the main one being it is not going to be recognisable as a working airport if all these plans get up.

Also any Airport precedents in NCAT are important in stopping proposals inappropritea to aviation.

All of this is where the Planning Consultant becomes invaluable.

Once everyone at the airport is on the same page and deciding to protect their asset, what you could do is phone the Planning Manager, see if you could get a meeting with him her to outline your planning concerns (vs emotional concerns)

I would make a submission asap, even an abbreviated one saying "theses are aour key concerns" because in making a submission, you may then be entitled to take issues to NCAT whereas at the moment you are not unless someone else has made a submission in which case you can put in a Request to be Heard.

[nick_reese]

I'm happy to help with any submission - one of the glaring gaps in the apparent planning process is the lack of consulation with airport users - at least we have started an informal airport users group in an attempt to plug this gap - the airport noise lobby doesn't appear to have a lot of clout - from surveys I have done on local Lismore FB groups the airport has a lot more supporters than detractos. I live under the base leg for runway 15 (have done for 7 years) and do not find any problem with the noise - if anything I get cranky at the pilots who pull their power back too fast when turning onto base :-), and I can really only hear that if I am outside.  Also - see the text below from a recent Daily Telegraph article:  

 

Readers slam plane noise ‘whinge’  Daily Telegraph June 18, 2021
Readers have come out in defence of flights schools in Lismore, calling complaints “codswallop”.

 

A petition has been circulating calling for the regulation of flights allowed to fly over Lismore, but not everyone agrees.
In response to a story earlier this week about the petition, many readers said the number of training flights over the town was not excessive, and they were not bothered by the noise.
In a letter distributed to residents, residents were urged to support a petition calling for regulation of flights, saying people were “expressing increased stress related to the noise which is now very frequent and disturbing”.
Supporters of the petition said residents deserved “peace and quiet”, but readers on social media suggested the complainant might be a “whinger”, and that the industry was good for the town.
Louise McKenzie said: “I live in East Lismore under the flight path. I have not noticed an increase in air traffic. It is nice to watch the planes fly in the day and at night. They create jobs and assist people to get from one town to another. Keep in mind that we also need the planes in the sky when there are natural emergencies”.
Philip O’Hehir said: “That person needs to move on, airport has been around for a long time”.
Charmain Hardie: “How do these people think airline pilots start their careers? Obviously they don’t require licensed pilots to fly the planes to get them to their holiday destinations”.
Rossco Wilson said: “Good for the town”.
Felicity Miller McDonald said: “What a lot of codswallop”.
Kerry Hensen said: “We live in South and don’t have a problem with them, and yes we are in the flight path, they turn over our house. The only time we worry is when it’s a overcast day and they fly a bit lower, but otherwise no problem”.
Ken Ferguson said: “What a whinger. get a life.”

[turboplanner]

48 minutes ago, nick_reese said:

one of the glaring gaps in the apparent planning process is the lack of consulation with airport users

Nick, the airport users had their chance for consultation between May 17 and June 15 this year, and it's beginning to look like none of the airport users engaged or made submissions. See the posts above with Munger. 

There's still a possibity of getting a submission in, but a lot of work to do.

[nick_reese]

3 hours ago, turboplanner said:

the airport users had their chance for consultation between May 17 and June 15 this year, and it's beginning to look like none of the airport users engaged or made submissions.

Incorrect! We formed the Lismore Airport Users Group, and made the following submission, which was completely ignored by the council.

 

Lismore Airport Users Group Meeting 16 May 2021

Spectrum Aviation Hangar, Lismore Airport

 

 

(Full names have been shortened for privacy reasons)

In attendance: Andreas U, Rob G, David B, Austin C, Wally S, Tony M, Nicholas R, Krystal F, Les and Fay M, Dieter R, Craig R.

 

Apologies: Izaac F, Nick K, John M, Christopher W, Mike B, David W, Garry L, Malcolm Y, Kelly Y, Shannon T, Matt W.

 

The decision was made to create the Lismore Airport Users Group (LAUG). Anyone with a vested interest in the use of Lismore Airport is welcome as part of the group.

 

Fee changes for Lismore Airport

 

The LAUG would like the following points considered in regards to the proposed landing fee changes for Lismore Airport:

 

• The airport has a community benefit beyond revenue generation, and while cost recovery should be a consideration, it should not occur to the detriment of the prosperity of established businesses. It is reasonable that there should be some subsidisation of the airport by ratepayers in view of this community benefit. For some people, there is also a recreational benefit obtained from access to an airport, and for others there is an educational benefit.

• No change in current landing fees as users will be put at a financial disadvantage to the point that they will move their aircraft and/or businesses to airfields that are more economically viable.

• Rate payers, hangar tenants, and visitors of the Lismore LGA have the availability of subscription-based tax (commonly referred to as annual fees) for other LCC administered public recreational facilities such as the Goonellabah Sports and Aquatic Centre and the Memorial Baths. The removal of the annual fee structure from the Lismore Aviation Recreation Centre (Lismore Airport) unfairly disadvantages the local aviator minority group, the vast majority who contribute to the LCC budget through business activities and rates. In contrast, the far larger number of boat owners in the region do not pay for the usage of public infrastructure such as boat ramps and car parks.

• It would be fair and reasonable for owners and lessees of infrastructure located at the Lismore Aviation Recreational Centre, who directly contribute to the prosperity of the public facility by way of taxes, voluntary maintenance and services, to have the landing fees for one personal recreational aircraft waived.

• Proposed recommending to Lismore City Council for the removal of one-off landing fees for aircraft that are visiting and carrying out a single landing. There are numerous reports of aircraft using either incorrect aircraft registrations in their radio calls, or not carrying out a radio call at all, to avoid being charged a landing fee when they are only wanting to refuel. This is an operational problem that should be reported to CASA if identified, but the removal of a one-off landing fee will remove the problem, improve the general safety of operating at the airport, and will lead to increased fuel sales, ensuring the long term viability of fuel provision services at the airport. The long term availability of fuel is also essential for emergency services.

• Lismore City Council to advise as to the reasoning for the decision to remove the annual usage fee.