Covid 19

[turboplanner]

46 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

What made you think I was politicising the matter - I am just highlighting gross incompetency, driven by a false precept, which may owe its origins to political ideology but I care not a fig for that.

 

Even the Romans knew how to handle a pandemic.Our present leaders (I care not what their political allegiance is) have been slow to accept the lessons of history and the council of scientists in the field.

 

Most of our state leaders have belatedly come to some understanding - swift, decisive/hard action must be taken - Gladys & Scomo were out back of the dunny, having a fag, when that bit of information was being absorbed by everyone else

 

Why do a hatchet job on Gladys & Scomo?- simple they are the captains of their respective teams/the front person, so they cop the blame when all turns to sh-t. 

 

From the outset the people who really understood the problem have said we must treat the pandemic as a war (against CV19) - when a country is on a war footing,certain civil liberties are suspended for the duration (few complain). Not us! We allow demonstrations by the antivax brigade to take place. Do I care that they may all get infected? No! I do care that when the protesters go back homes they may infect a lot of innocent people who do not deserve to be so assaulted.

Neither Gladys or Scomo are the CHO.

There's been no gross incompetency from any of our CHOs; Australia is one of the most successful countries in the world at managing this pandemic

[skippydiesel]

6 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Neither Gladys or Scomo are the CHO.

There's been no gross incompetency from any of our CHOs; Australia is one of the most successful countries in the world at managing this pandemic

 

Political "heads" of departments are forever putting pressure on the bureaucrats (including CHO's) to move in one direction or another, supress/highlight information, "toe the party line" .  Most if not all, department heads are political appointees beholden to their political masters. - I dont believe for a moment, that Gladys & her gang are acting any differently.

 

The buck stops with Gladys & Scomo - I for one would be pleased to see them go - now.

 

As for "Australia is one of the most successful countries in the world at managing this pandemic" give me a brake -True we have been  very very lucky, our success is mainly due  good luck -  we are an island continent.- not good management This fact alone as allowed the slow often inappropriate and insufficient response, of our collective Governments, to be mitigated.

 

Our federal government is supposed to be responsible for our national security (in this context health), set national strategy in response to external/internal threats. Provide support & guidance to responding agencies. For goodness sake we didn't even know who was responsible for authorising the entry of infected cruise liner passengers (turns out it was delegated somehow to NSW department of agriculture - who would have believed it, they didn't) - Scomo????

[Thruster88]

Our leaders could have done much better, however they will always have this problem

 

[onetrack]

Don't get me started on about the number of imbeciles who drive around after dark with their lights off! They certainly must be part of the same group who performed the anti-vax, anti-COVID-19 demonstrations!!

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

 

Political "heads" of departments are forever putting pressure on the bureaucrats (including CHO's) to move in one direction or another, supress/highlight information, "toe the party line" .  Most if not all, department heads are political appointees beholden to their political masters. - I dont believe for a moment, that Gladys & her gang are acting any differently.

 

The buck stops with Gladys & Scomo - I for one would be pleased to see them go - now.

 

As for "Australia is one of the most successful countries in the world at managing this pandemic" give me a brake -True we have been  very very lucky, our success is mainly due  good luck -  we are an island continent.- not good management This fact alone as allowed the slow often inappropriate and insufficient response, of our collective Governments, to be mitigated.

 

Our federal government is supposed to be responsible for our national security (in this context health), set national strategy in response to external/internal threats. Provide support & guidance to responding agencies. For goodness sake we didn't even know who was responsible for authorising the entry of infected cruise liner passengers (turns out it was delegated somehow to NSW department of agriculture - who would have believed it, they didn't) - Scomo????

I can’t help you Skippy you are on a dream cruise. NSW is in. State Of Emergency with a Commander, the CHO.

[Old Koreelah]

This discussion belongs on the Off Topic site.

[planesmaker]

The 399 that have been reported to the TGA were reported by family or close friend, or doctor of the deceased who obviously considered the link to the vaccine strong enough to report it. Many would go unreported. Food for thought. Not to mention the thousands of adverse reactions also reported. Maybe mild maybe severe we will never be told. 

[planesmaker]

From TGA website 

 

• Sadly two people with confirmed TTS following the first dose of the AstraZeneca vaccine died in the last week. One was a 44-year-old man from Tasmania and the other was a 48-year-old woman from Victoria.  We extend our sincere condolences to their families and loved ones.

Tell them the benefit outweighs the risk!!!

 RIP fellow Australians

[Bernie]

WE have had both "jabs" of AZ.

Suffered no ill effects.

Bernie.

[aro]

9 hours ago, planesmaker said:

The 399 that have been reported to the TGA were reported by family or close friend, or doctor of the deceased who obviously considered the link to the vaccine strong enough to report it. Many would go unreported.

All deaths and serious illnesses would be reported, regardless of whether anyone considers it linked. It is part of the monitoring they do, to see whether there is a higher rate than would be expected in the age groups. That way they know if there is something to investigate, even if no-one has made the link. The fact that deaths at a rate of 1 in a million are being detected shows how good the safety protocols are.

 

If you pick a sample of a few million people, particularly concentrating on the elderly, some will die in the period they are being monitored.

 

If you are into meaningless figures, did you know that there are higher rates of pregnancy in women who received the Pfizer vaccine than Astra Zeneca?

 

 

[octave]

In Australia over 11 million have been vaccinated. Worldwide 3.86 billion vaccines have been administered.  A death rate of one percent would equate to 110000 deaths in Australia alone, a little tricky to conceal I would have thought.

 

9 hours ago, planesmaker said:

The 399 that have been reported to the TGA were reported by family or close friend

 

I have to ask what is the source for this figure?

[skippydiesel]

12 hours ago, turboplanner said:

I can’t help you Skippy you are on a dream cruise. NSW is in. State Of Emergency with a Commander, the CHO.

I guess I will leave it up to the assembled committee of public opinion - who do you think is living in a fantasy world:

 

Turbo: who imagines the polys have nil influence on how the NSW pandemic is being handled ?

Skippyd: who thinks the polies have their mucky fingers in almost every decision made by Turbos' CHO?

[planesmaker]

Octave, TGA website where people have to actually choose to go there to report an adverse event. It is not mandatory reporting. 

[turboplanner]

19 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I guess I will leave it up to the assembled committee of public opinion - who do you think is living in a fantasy world:

 

Turbo: who imagines the polys have nil influence on how the NSW pandemic is being handled ?

Skippyd: who thinks the polies have their mucky fingers in almost every decision made by Turbos' CHO?

Our CHO looks like he'll be taking us out of lockdown tomorrow Skippy.

[skippydiesel]

Turbo my friend; As a long suffering NSW public servant (now thankfully out of purgatory) I can tell you from actual experience ,the polies get involved with every situation/decision that they imagine will have a positive/negative impact on them. There is little, other than routine operation, they dont influence.

 

The public has the idea that the public service functions "at arms length" from politics. This may have been so (to some extent) a few eons ago. Now ALL department heads (Directors) are political appointees (this often flows down to quit menial appointments). That's why a change of political leadership, often sees the department heads replaced soon after. This feature alone, demonstrates the incestuous relationship between the PS & the Gov of the day.

 

The idea that the PS gives impartial/frank/fearless advice is a thing of the past (if it ever existed). Wow betide the servant who brings unwelcome news or resists the whim of the political head.

 

The close relationship of the PS (both State & Federal) to their political masters, is almost always to the disadvantage of the public. 

 

One ever rising movement, that I believes has resulted from this relationship, is the level of secrecy our Gov's of all levels operate under/impose. Secrecy used to be reserved for those matters that may negativity impact on national security - now it can be matters of (corrupt) financial dealings, the colour of the ministers underpants, whatever they wish the public not to know.

[octave]

1 minute ago, planesmaker said:

Octave, TGA website where people have to actually choose to go there to report an adverse event. It is not mandatory reporting. 

 

10 hours ago, planesmaker said:

The 399 that have been reported to the TGA were reported by family or close friend, or doctor of the deceased who obviously considered the link to the vaccine strong enough to report it.

Specifically where on the TGA site can I find this number?

 

10 hours ago, planesmaker said:

Tell them the benefit outweighs the risk!!!

 RIP fellow Australians

 

There have been 918 covid deaths in Australia.  There are tools we can use to prevent this happening again. We have strict and costly lockdowns or vaccines.   If you don't want to get the vaccine then that is fine with me although I cant understand why you would want to dissuade others from getting vaccinated. My covid vaccine will help protect those who either cant get the vaccine or who wont get the vaccine.

 

Perhaps Skippydiesel you could give us your prescription for how we should proceed.  Should we return to the 2020 way of dealing with covid?

[skippydiesel]

4 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Our CHO looks like he'll be taking us out of lockdown tomorrow Skippy.

Yeah! well Vic learnt a hard lesson from the last outbreak - acted swiftly and strongly to limit the spread of the NSW infection and are now reaping the benefit of that action. Go Vic!

[skippydiesel]

Just now, octave said:

 

 

 

Perhaps Skippydiesel you could give us your prescription for how we should proceed.  Should we return to the 2020 way of dealing with covid?

I have already made my suggestion erlier in this conversation - will repeat:

 

Outbreak

Lockdown within 24 hrs of a CV19 person being identified as active in the community

Geographic area MUST include "hotspot" and a large buffer zone eg hot spot Bondi - buffer zone ALL of Sydney Basin

Lockdown/Quarantine must be very very strict, no movement of people with the exception of truly essential workers (health/power/water/fuel/etc) and essential needs ( eg food/health/etc). 

Masks, hand washing, social distancing (now at least 2 m or better) at all times outside the home/ private car.

All social events must cease (including funeral/weddings/christenings) - for the most part these can resume as soon as lockdown opens - hopefully within 5-10 days

Severe penalties, for rule breakers, publicised with name & photo.

With luck & good public compliance, the lockdown may only last 5-10 days (not months and months)

 

Living with CV19

I do not support mandatory/forced vaccination

I do support secondary penalties for the unvaccinated - if you work with the public (especially the vulnerable) in any capacity - no vac no job. No travel outside Australia (during an outbreak no travel across state boundaries even if not in lockdown), etc 

All visitors (whatever occupation/rank/wealth) must be vaccinated to enter Australia - no exceptions. 

We have to get used to wearing masks when in public places where a 2m+ social distance can not be maintained - people who refuse (without good cause eg medical certificate) should be denied entry to transport/shops/ etc. Other patrons, serving staff, etc must not be put at risk by the selfish behaviour of a few.

The law (makers and enforcers) must support these sort of basic hygiene measures.

 

I am sure I have missed a few things.

 

This is all common sense stuff - the overriding philosophy; - we must be on a war footing with the pandemic - anything less and we will certainly loose

[RossK]

1 in a million is a really small number isn't it. Quite insignificant.

So, in Australia, that equates to only 26 people.

So, are we OK to ask 26 people to die by using the AZ vaccine.

How would you feel if one of those 26 was your wife, son, daughter?

I'm not an anti-vaxer, I'm all for pfizer, I've had my 2 doses.

For those who have had AZ and are fine, great, i'm really happy for you. The more people who get vaccinated the better.

But I don't think we should be pushing people to take a risk with AZ when there is a viable alternative.

And people certainly shouldn't take advice on vaccines from this forum or from Politicians, speak to your GP.

 

[turboplanner]

7 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I have already made my suggestion erlier in this conversation - will repeat:

 

Outbreak

Lockdown within 24 hrs of a CV19 person being identified as active in the community

Geographic area MUST include "hotspot" and a large buffer zone eg hot spot Bondi - buffer zone ALL of Sydney Basin

Lockdown/Quarantine must be very very strict, no movement of people with the exception of truly essential workers (health/power/water/fuel/etc) and essential needs ( eg food/health/etc). 

Masks, hand washing, social distancing (now at least 2 m or better) at all times outside the home/ private car.

All social events must cease (including funeral/weddings/christenings) - for the most part these can resume as soon as lockdown opens - hopefully within 5-10 days

Severe penalties, for rule breakers, publicised with name & photo.

With luck & good public compliance, the lockdown may only last 5-10 days (not months and months)

 

Living with CV19

I do not support mandatory/forced vaccination

I do support secondary penalties for the unvaccinated - if you work with the public (especially the vulnerable) in any capacity - no vac no job. No travel outside Australia (during an outbreak no travel across state boundaries even if not in lockdown), etc 

All visitors (whatever occupation/rank/wealth) must be vaccinated to enter Australia - no exceptions. 

We have to get used to wearing masks when in public places where a 2m+ social distance can not be maintained - people who refuse (without good cause eg medical certificate) should be denied entry to transport/shops/ etc. Other patrons, serving staff, etc must not be put at risk by the selfish behaviour of a few.

The law (makers and enforcers) must support these sort of basic hygiene measures.

 

I am sure I have missed a few things.

 

This is all common sense stuff - the overriding philosophy; - we must be on a war footing with the pandemic - anything less and we will certainly loose

The epedemiologists know all that and have an algorithm which has worked very well all around Australia; the problem is Sydney people seem to have a death wish and flout all the rules.

[octave]

4 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Lockdown within 24 hrs of a CV19 person being identified as active in the community

Geographic area MUST include "hotspot" and a large buffer zone eg hot spot Bondi - buffer zone ALL of Sydney Basin

Lockdown/Quarantine must be very very strict, no movement of people with the exception of truly essential workers (health/power/water/fuel/etc) and essential needs ( eg food/health/etc). 

Masks, hand washing, social distancing (now at least 2 m or better) at all times outside the home/ private car.

All social events must cease (including funeral/weddings/christenings) - for the most part these can resume as soon as lockdown opens - hopefully within 5-10 days

Severe penalties, for rule breakers, publicised with name & photo.

With luck & good public compliance, the lockdown may only last 5-10 days (not months and months)

Experience has shown that it is very difficult to maintain an airtight lockdown.   How do we prevent for example removalists traveling and spreading the virus. It is generally harder to prevent an action taking place than it is to prosecute after it has occured  As necessary as tough lockdowns are can we really continue shutting down even small areas regularly.   Are we going to compensate those people who cant work for a week or 2.   Are we going to be able maintain our economy when the counties we compete with do not have to have shutdowns?

 

 

[Flightrite]

One of the most ugly side effects of this con job is that it has divided the nation! Something the corrupt politicians enjoy & use it to their advantage!

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but apparently not in this country!

[turboplanner]

7 minutes ago, octave said:

Experience has shown that it is very difficult to maintain an airtight lockdown.   How do we prevent for example removalists traveling and spreading the virus. It is generally harder to prevent an action taking place than it is to prosecute after it has occured  As necessary as tough lockdowns are can we really continue shutting down even small areas regularly.   Are we going to compensate those people who cant work for a week or 2.   Are we going to be able maintain our economy when the counties we compete with do not have to have shutdowns?

 

 

That line of thought has been pushed regularly around Australia and particularly by employer groups who don't care about deaths.

The latest in Victoria is a push to be able to remove masks when seated at work. So people come in to work in the morning from all quarters of a town or city, sit down, take the mask on and a friend comes over to talk about the footy infects the person and they spread the disease back in the suburb where they live, nightclubs, restaurants, sports events etc. That's community transmission. That would extend our lockdowns and cause more.

 

Australia hasn't gone that way so far, hasn't relied on vaccines to stop the spread, and the result as of June 29 was, according to Johns Hopkins University of Medicine:

 

Australia 44th out of 173 countries with 900 deaths or 3.6 per 100,000

USA 159th out of 173 with 604,115 deaths or 182.5 per 100,000 people

UK 160th out of 173 with 128,367 or 189.1 per 100,000 people   (RossK's example of AZ risk at 1 in a milion looks a lot better than this)

 

If the 820 deaths in Melbourne nursing homes, which were internally infected were deleted, Australia would be sitting in 12th position with a rate of 0.2/100,000 deaths

 

 

[turboplanner]

9 minutes ago, Flightrite said:

One of the most ugly side effects of this con job is that it has divided the nation! Something the corrupt politicians enjoy & use it to their advantage!

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but apparently not in this country!

When a State of Emergency is declared, and there are 9 of them in force around Australia, we are not in a sate of democracy, we are taking orders from the people appointed to bring the pandemic to an end.

 

Where democracy fits into this is that governments only decare the SOE for a short period, so the powers expire. In this pandemic SOEs have been renewed many times.

 

[planesmaker]

Octave, TGA under weekly Covid 19 vaccine safety report