Covid 19

[red750]

Back on topic.

 

Here we go again, this is getting bloody rediculous.

 

Lockdown No. 6 - 7 days, commencing 8.00 pm tonight.

 

Two household contacts of a COVID-positive teacher in Melbourne’s west now also have the virus, health authorities have confirmed.

 

On Thursday, Victoria recorded six new COVID-19 cases with one of those a teacher at Al-Taqwa College in Truganina and the other her partner, who works in Caroline Springs.

 

Despite conditions of lockdown 5 which only ended yesterday one of these visited family in another household and spread it to them.

 

And yet dickhead Dan, who has no compunction whipping Victoria in and out of lockdowns plunging hundreds if not thousands into financial turmoil and risking suicide, refuses to take any action against the miserable so and so's. He's as bad as softly softly Gladys. He will rap them over the knuckles with a feather.

 

Throw the book at them I say - $5000 fine or 6 months jail or both.

[Marty_d]

Ask not for whom the bell tolls (or whatever the saying is).

 

While it's natural to want to punish those who cause these outbreaks (like that NSW muppet who flew to Tassie without a permit and later tested positive - we'll probably have one here soon) - in the majority of cases they are doing things that in an of themselves are totally unremarkable, in times that are anything but.

 

Are they guilty of thoughtlessness, even stupidity, and possibly selfishness?  Most likely.  But if they have any self awareness at all, ie not a total sociopath, then they'll know that their actions led to a lockdown and the majority of the state they live in despising them for that, and that's probably a worse punishment than fines or even minor jail time.

 

But I would be very uncomfortable with the state punishing non-violent, non-malicious behaviour with draconian fines and jail time.  We've all done stupid things from time to time.  Could be one of us having a brain fart and dropping in to a family member during a lockdown.

[Roundsounds]

Round everyone who’s found to have COVID and send the off to Woomera (Camp Rapier) for a month or two. 
IF they’ve contracted COVID, they or someone close hasn’t followed COVID protocols. A couple of weeks rest will give them time to contemplate the error of their ways.  

[red750]

42 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

in the majority of cases they are doing things that in an of themselves are totally unremarkable, in times that are anything but.

When they come out and say "You can visit a brothel but not your mother. NO FAMILY VISITS." I think the message is pretty unmistakable.

[Jerry_Atrick]

7 hours ago, red750 said:

When they come out and say "You can visit a brothel but not your mother. NO FAMILY VISITS." I think the message is pretty unmistakable.

*cough* *cough* ; *splutter* *splutter* ... Obviously, the stress our pollies are under, they need the relief.. And it works both ways - pressure relief provided by the houses of ill-repute - no doubt considered essential services - and relief of not having to deal with those members of the family one would prefer to cast into the open ocean at a point where white tips are swimming in circles waiting for their feed. Of course, it may provide little comfort of being denied the liberty of seeing genuine loved ones.

 

8 hours ago, Marty_d said:

Are they guilty of thoughtlessness, even stupidity, and possibly selfishness? 

I don't believe either of these are crimes.. The former may land you in hot water in a civil suit, but the latter, well, is all around us today...

 

8 hours ago, red750 said:

Despite conditions of lockdown 5 which only ended yesterday one of these visited family in another household and spread it to them.

I am not sure of the circumstances of the latest outbreak in Victoria, but to consider the legal implications in criminal law:

Generally, for a crime to be committed, there has to be two ingredients: actus reus (guilty act) and mens rea (guilty mind). As an example, the act of killing an adult is not in itself murder, but the guilty mind (i.e. intent) makes it murder. Without getting into a convoluted argument about the overlap, as an example, of you happen to be jogging along the footpath and from between two dtrucks parked on the side of the road, a pedestrian, oblivious to the world outside them thanks to the miracle of modern personal music players, emerges in your track with too little time for you to react and you pummell them to the ground upon which their head makes fatal contact with the concrete, you are very unlikely to be convicted (or charged) with murder as it was a totally unavoidable accident. If, however, you lined them up for 100 metres away (and assume that can be proved_) and you timed it to pummel them to the ground on them emerging from between the trucks, well, you have intent and you are guilty of murder (again, assuming it is provable and there are no defences such as temporary insanity or provocation or something else).

 

To our hapless COVID infected people in Trugininia.. the key questions are:

- Is it a crime, when out of lockdown to move around if one has COVID-19?

- If so, did they intend to move around with COVID when they moved around - in other words - did they know they had COVID and therefore intentionally move around when it was illegal?

 

If the answer to both of the questions is yes, well, then, yes, they should have the book thrown at them. If the answer to either is no, well, it's sad it has happened, and yes, the ramifications are serious, but either it wasn't against the law (therefore a court will throw it out unless they want to invent a common law crime) or they had know possible knowledge they were spreading COVID (therefore, no intent).

 

The exceptions are strict liability (i.e. intent was not there, but too bad unless you were an automotant - meaning unable to control your actions), which is common for motoring offences, or absolute liability (no intent, and too bad if you couldn't control your actions) - probably the preserve of tax avoidance or similar.

 

Those who travelled without the requisite passports/tests/etc required for interstate travel probably should have the book thorwn at them.. the local Melbourne cases - I am not so sure.

[turboplanner]

The Victorian Premier very early adopted a policy of showing up for the media every day, and staying in front of them until they had exhausted every theory that journalists can get into their minds. It could be a disaster if a politician was trying to cover something up, but it has worked, and is streets ahead of the 20 second TV News story or the 150 word Newspaper story. I mentioned the Victorian horizontal structure in DHHS yesterday where the top people are working out in the local areas, and he outlined what they had found, what it might mean, the modelling that was done and the reason DHHS came to the conclusion of the lockdown, and how the cases were mystery so no one at that stage knew anyone was guilty of spreading it but there were pointers towards what has been said here, but they were expected to be conformed or dismissed by contact tracing maybe today, that with the Delta strain, if you think you've locked down too early, you're about right to knock it down in a few days, and in particular he covered several times that there was no point in prosecuting a person because it would discourage other guilty one from coming forward and being tested quickly, and you had to balance being happy that you threw the book at someone who had done something wrong vs having the epidemic get away from you and several , or many people dying because the infected weren't letting contact tracing identify where the epidemic was going.

 

The brothel vs home visit comparison comes from the teams doing contact tracing and identifying where every transmission occurred, how it occurred, and the relationship between the two people.

Then the DHHS teams run the modelling, which would appear to have shown virtually no transmission in brothels, but the two leading spreaders being people visiting relatives in their homes (and likely staying for several hours), and the "travellers" - people who leave home and got to three supermarkets, two shopping centres, the football and three nightclubs in the one day.

 

[kgwilson]

Say what you like about Dan Andrews & it is clear many consider his actions dictatorial (Chairman Dan) but the lockdowns worked & he went hard & fast. The workload was very obvious by the end of lockdown 1. He was out on his feet & I commend him for his fortitude and stamina. If Gladys (Scomos gold standard) had anywhere near the same set of goolies NSW would never have got to the state it is in & passed it around the country.

 

But of course the Delta strain is far more cunning than than we are and current lockdowns can work but any tiny chink in our armour will see it escape. The population  is suffering Covid fatigue now and any small transgression that would have gone unnoticed before is an escape route for Delta.

 

Epidemiologists IN NZ have advised the government there, that if it turns up they will need to put the whole country into what they described as "Level 4 lockdown on steroids" with virtually nothing open. The only way out is as I see it and even most politicians see it now is Vaccination. I get my 2nd AZ shot this morning.

[red750]

@Jerry_Atrick, the home visit took place during lockdown 5. There was insufficient time between 5 and 6 for the virus to become evident in the family contacts. They were tested before 5 ended. It's the same with idiots who go to Bunnings to get garden supplies when it's meant to be "essential" shopping only. The new seedlings can wait a week or two.

 

How much evidence do some people need to realise you have to take this thing seriously?

 

 

[aro]

10 hours ago, Roundsounds said:

Round everyone who’s found to have COVID and send the off to Woomera (Camp Rapier) for a month or two. 
IF they’ve contracted COVID, they or someone close hasn’t followed COVID protocols.

It's an infectious disease, any protocols guaranteed to prevent it are impractical for normal circumstances. All we can do is take precautions that reduce the chance it spreads.

 

If you have had a cold in the last 18 months, you have relaxed your guard enough to catch COVID if it was there. If you did have a cold, could you identify the person you caught it from and all the people you might have passed it on to? That is the challenge of contact tracing.

[aro]

8 minutes ago, red750 said:

It's the same with idiots who go to Bunnings to get garden supplies when it's meant to be "essential" shopping only.

Of all the groups I know, pilots seem to be the most likely to ignore the lockdown rules. From organizing fly ins on Facebook during lockdown, to elaborate justifications about how flying counts as maintenance because aircraft need to be flown regularly (never mind that before the pandemic they might have gone months between flights) and outright denial of the disease, pilots are at the top of the list.

[skippydiesel]

37 minutes ago, aro said:

Of all the groups I know, pilots seem to be the most likely to ignore the lockdown rules. From organizing fly ins on Facebook during lockdown, to elaborate justifications about how flying counts as maintenance because aircraft need to be flown regularly (never mind that before the pandemic they might have gone months between flights) and outright denial of the disease, pilots are at the top of the list.

Interesting observation - I live under the Sydney Basin Training Area (for Bankstown/Camden/The Oaks) - not a lot of activity to be sure but still some ????

[red750]

[turboplanner]

45 minutes ago, aro said:

Of all the groups I know, pilots seem to be the most likely to ignore the lockdown rules. From organizing fly ins on Facebook during lockdown, to elaborate justifications about how flying counts as maintenance because aircraft need to be flown regularly (never mind that before the pandemic they might have gone months between flights) and outright denial of the disease, pilots are at the top of the list.

It's a reasonable assumption, but apparently, like brothels, they have been model citizens based on the contact tracing and most likely flying alone.

Edited August 5, 2021 by turboplanner

[Mewp]

The problem with home visits is we don't check-in so contact tracing then relies on honesty and memory. Give each household a code and even then people would not use it just like I see at shops when several people are checking in at the same time.

[spacesailor]

" Throw the book at them I say - $5000 fine or 6 months jail or both. "

OK, Lets do it right !.

Sydney is going into it's second MONTH.

SO

The Beings who let that First cruise ship in.

SHOULD HAVE THAT BOOK THROWN AT THEM

 

( Quarantine IS Quarantine.   No if & buts,  Any ship or aircraft infected should Not be berthed in Australia  )

spacesailor

Edited August 6, 2021 by spacesailor
missing information

[danny_galaga]

Even SERBIA and SLOVENIA have vaccinated roughly THREE times as many per capita as us.

 

Pretty big clue right there about where we're going wrong...

[skippydiesel]

This emphasis/reliance on vaccine(s) to get us back to normalcy (whatever your idea of that is) does not quite add up for me. 

 

Don't get me wrong I am all for getting the jab x 2 (possibly booster every year or so).

 

What I cant get my head around is;

 

The Governments concept of a % of the population - 80% of eligible, 80% of adult & 80 % of total (all) population, result in very different numbers. What possible benefit to the Gov is there in leading us down the garden path on this important matter?

 

The "small voices in the wilderness" (epidemiologists) are insisting on a minimum of 80% of total population (including children, anti vaccinators, etc etc) to obtain a meaningful level of "herd immunity" - very different from the Gov & popular press.

 

Then there is the actual efficacy of the vaccine(s). All seem to give a high level of death prevention. Some claim a level of anti infection. Those that just prevent serious disease, do not appear to  prevent an infected person being a carrier/transmitter - what does this mean for "living with the CV" ? Will this allow/facilitate the virus evolving into ever more dangerous variants ?. 

 

Oddly no one is claiming much benefit, immunity,  from having contracted CV19 and recovered.

 

Then there is "Long Covide" - the immunity question is nothing compared with the on going issues;  increasing evidence of severe and potentially life long vascular, neurological damage - scary!

[spacesailor]

SO

How do we ( as family head ) convince our offspring to get the vaccination. ?

a down right NO was the answer to my advice, but Why, l hate the thought of losing anyone close to me.

If I stood in front of a truck, & said " it will give way to an old fart like me " what would their response be !.

Now my Niece's son has said No to the vaccine. ( l responded with " I will Never be able to attend your funeral, as we will be, forever in lockdown " ).

Will he get the " suble " hint.

spacesailor

 

[Marty_d]

31 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

This emphasis/reliance on vaccine(s) to get us back to normalcy (whatever your idea of that is) does not quite add up for me. 

 

Don't get me wrong I am all for getting the jab x 2 (possibly booster every year or so).

 

What I cant get my head around is;

 

The Governments concept of a % of the population - 80% of eligible, 80% of adult & 80 % of total (all) population, result in very different numbers. What possible benefit to the Gov is there in leading us down the garden path on this important matter?

 

The "small voices in the wilderness" (epidemiologists) are insisting on a minimum of 80% of total population (including children, anti vaccinators, etc etc) to obtain a meaningful level of "herd immunity" - very different from the Gov & popular press.

 

Then there is the actual efficacy of the vaccine(s). All seem to give a high level of death prevention. Some claim a level of anti infection. Those that just prevent serious disease, do not appear to  prevent an infected person being a carrier/transmitter - what does this mean for "living with the CV" ? Will this allow/facilitate the virus evolving into ever more dangerous variants ?. 

 

Oddly no one is claiming much benefit, immunity,  from having contracted CV19 and recovered.

 

Then there is "Long Covide" - the immunity question is nothing compared with the on going issues;  increasing evidence of severe and potentially life long vascular, neurological damage - scary!

You haven't mentioned one factor that is supremely important to the government.

 

There's an election coming up.

 

If they make the target too out of reach (eg 80% of entire population) and then don't reach that before the election, they may lose power.  Which is more serious to them than the virus itself.

 

So they negotiate it down to 70% of "eligible recipients" then hope like hell they can reach that before the election.

[skippydiesel]

17 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

SO

How do we ( as family head ) convince our offspring to get the vaccination. ?

a down right NO was the answer to my advice, but Why, l hate the thought of losing anyone close to me.

If I stood in front of a truck, & said " it will give way to an old fart like me " what would their response be !.

Now my Niece's son has said No to the vaccine. ( l responded with " I will Never be able to attend your funeral, as we will be, forever in lockdown " ).

Will he get the " suble " hint.

spacesailor

 

I am sure there was a earlier, excellent comparison with those who suggested/did leaving the lights on during WW2 - in times such as these, the refusal to get vaccinated must have ongoing consequences.

 

I support the concept of "free will/self determination" but not when it might cost me or my family, friends, their life.

 

Those that choose not to be vaccinated, should not be forced to do so, however many "privileges" must then be denied them - some suggestions;

 

No employment in a situation that brings them into contact with the public/many colleagues

No entree to facilities where social distancing impossible/unlikely  eg clubs, concerts, cinemas, etc

No overseas travel

No entry to Australia without evidence of recent (recognised) vaccination (no exceptions)

Preventative detention, as soon as lockdown declared - this will minimise their chance of infection - treatment cost to community - becoming a spreader.

[Flightrite]

are we really that surprised that the lunatic Andrews has once again f*cked us over? The grub will continue to destroy peoples lives as he gets off on it! At least the vaxed are sharing the same cell as non vaxed, i guess that's a consolation prize!

Edited August 6, 2021 by Flightrite

[Student Pilot]

26 minutes ago, Arron25 said:

No access to public funding/welfare

No access to Public health

 

There was a surgeon on the radio who said if he wasn't fully vaccinated.. he would HAVE to find other employment as he would not be allowed to operate ... Why is not the case for ALL health care/age care workers?

Because there's still not enough vaccine to go around, vaccine hesitancy has been blamed, that was to try and cover the fact that there is just not enough vaccine. People 12 to 50+ the only choice is AZ if they can get it. If Scotty from marketing refused AZ so you can see why some of the population don't want it either.

[Student Pilot]

2 minutes ago, Flightrite said:

are we really that surprised that the lunatic Andrews has once again f*cked us over? The grub will continue to destroy peoples lives as he gets off on it!

I'm happy what Dan is doing, would you rather be in the mess NSW is in? That's what happens when politics gets involved, Gladys and Scotty from marketing have shown how badly handled policy and blame shifting doesn't work with covid. 

[red750]

I think it was during the Spanish flu, if you didn't get vaccinated, you went to jail.

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, Flightrite said:

are we really that surprised that the lunatic Andrews has once again f*cked us over? The grub will continue to destroy peoples lives as he gets off on it! At least the vaxed are sharing the same cell as non vaxed, i guess that's a consolation prize!

Maaate just thank your lucky stars his name isn't Gladys - you would really understand how a city.state can be " f*cked us over"