turboplanner Posted August 15, 2021 Posted August 15, 2021 13 minutes ago, Flying Binghi said: As an ‘how did we get to here from there’ backgrounder, the last 5 minutes may prove ‘educational’..🤔 . A lot of what he was saying then put Australia and Victoria in a very good position compared to the rest of the word, but we've also had a massive learning curve since then and saved even more lives. The last bit is proably a wish for a Communist State so a Leader could "tell us what to do".
octave Posted August 15, 2021 Posted August 15, 2021 1 hour ago, Flying Binghi said: then the jarring bit at the end re the world political order, or something.. ? He says "I think we need to rethink the way society works quite frankly. I think a society that's driven only by the needs of capitalism is a complete catastrophe, it is unsustainable it is toxic" I am guessing this is the part that is bothering you. In any case whatever his particular political beliefs are isn't the science and the data the important thing? If we were to completely ignore the advice of the Doherty institute would we be doing things differently now? Is the advice from the Doherty Institute radically different from other research organizations?
walrus Posted August 15, 2021 Author Posted August 15, 2021 Doherty is right because capitalism has no need for free markets, Democracy, fairness, equity or law and left to itself will destroy everything good. These are from 1969 in Manchester UK. So much for Capitalism.
spacesailor Posted August 15, 2021 Posted August 15, 2021 Yes those pictures of Manchester are a telling political bias, , to the fact that the ruling party Do not care about the working class, in the other part of the country. They will have big parties in London while the north starves. Just had ONE PARTY up north ! After the death of Nasty Thatcher. spacesailor 2
tillmanr Posted August 15, 2021 Posted August 15, 2021 And which party has done much better here in Australia. In my opinion neither major party at state or national level has in practical terms. 1
skippydiesel Posted August 15, 2021 Posted August 15, 2021 (edited) Also you forget that Britain had a massive war debt after WW2 which had depressing effect on its econamy. I am concerned by some of the respondents on this topic. There seem to be a minority who have swallowed the anti Communism propaganda, that originated with McCarthy in the US and bubbles away under the American psychic to this day, so much so that they are unable to differentiate between Socialism and Communism. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME ! They are as different as Fascism & Conservatism/Capitalism. True, there is a continuum from Fascism on the extreme right, to Communism on the extreme left. Some would argue its more of a circle than a line, with both extreme's exhibiting many of the dogma/behaviour of the other. The point I am trying to make is that for the most part liberal democracies occupy the middle ground, with occasional minor shift/moves (some call them corrections) in on direction or the other. Socialism gave us public health, the dole, work laws, leans towards accountability, caring for the underprivileged etc etc. Capitalism gives us a strong dynamic econamy necessary to support the welfare state - leans towards unaccountability (secrecy) and support of the wealthy . We are lucky to live in such a state and should protect its values vigorously . Edited August 15, 2021 by skippydiesel 6 1
skippydiesel Posted August 15, 2021 Posted August 15, 2021 50 minutes ago, jackc said: Add corruption…… Corruption is the parasite of all human systems/organisations. It seems to flourish under the extremes of left & right but is never absent where the quest for power and financial gain(very human conditions) are centered. In the middle ground there are frequent attempts to address corruption, not so at the extremes. Corruption will be with us, as long as we remain homo sapiens. It may become redundant when we evolve into homo superior and every individual has a highly developed social conscience. This will be when we no longer need governing or even laws to guide us. Fantasy perhaps but we already have the crude ability to manipulate the gene. So when will the very rich start to influence the future characteristics of their children ?
spacesailor Posted August 15, 2021 Posted August 15, 2021 OR Perhaps those super-Rich will manipulate the ' genes' of the poor, to make the old slaves thankful to their master. It could even be happening today. All the additives in everything we eat & drink. Didn't it get used in the war to stop " randi " soldiers. something in their mashed potatoes. spacesailor
kgwilson Posted August 15, 2021 Posted August 15, 2021 Those scenes of Manchester are just a 1950s version of most large American cities today. I haven't been to the US since the late 90s but I was astounded at the level of poverty back then In places like LA, New York New Orleans and Atlanta. Chicago, Detroit and large ex industrial cities in the mid west rust belt are worse. They don't call those areas ghettos for nothing. 1
skippydiesel Posted August 15, 2021 Posted August 15, 2021 1 hour ago, spacesailor said: OR Perhaps those super-Rich will manipulate the ' genes' of the poor, to make the old slaves thankful to their master. It could even be happening today. All the additives in everything we eat & drink. Didn't it get used in the war to stop " randi " soldiers. something in their mashed potatoes. spacesailor The best way to enslave the mases is to get them all into the middle class. The poor have nothing to loose and may revolt. The rich give nothing and control those who aspire to power. The middle class have no time to waste, everything to lose, paralysed by the taxes that support the nation and paranoia that they may end with nothing - so they do nothing - sound familiar. There is no plot, just human nature. 1 2
Flying Binghi Posted August 15, 2021 Posted August 15, 2021 15 hours ago, walrus said: Doherty is right because capitalism has no need for free markets, Democracy, fairness, equity or law and left to itself will destroy everything good. These are from 1969 in Manchester UK. So much for Capitalism. In the top photo looks like there is some slum clearance going on. Either that, or the residents are to useless to pick up their own rubbish. One thing to note is the chubby cheeked children. Luckily in a democratic capitalist society there is enough food, and funds, to go round. And a free, and free thinking, press to be asking questions if there is not enough. Meanwhile, over in North Korea..... I see that in Hong Kong the teachers union has just been shut down. Hmmm, the ‘lights are going out’ in China... .
Flying Binghi Posted August 15, 2021 Posted August 15, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, skippydiesel said: ..... There is no plot, just human nature. Yep. And we need to be constantly on our guard against those who wander to far from the centre of the top part of the political circle. I think that were what them drafters of the US constitution were thinking about. It’s not a document that guards against any particular “ism” as such. More an attempt to guard against the “human nature” of certain individuals to drift towards self interested and ultimately destructive extremes. Meanwhile, in the corrupt state of Victoria we have a journalist being threatened by Police... Edited August 15, 2021 by Flying Binghi 1
octave Posted August 15, 2021 Posted August 15, 2021 6 minutes ago, Flying Binghi said: Luckily in a democratic capitalist society there is enough food, and funds, to go round. And a free, and free thinking, press to be asking questions if there is not enough. Meanwhile, over in North Korea... I don't think anyone is really saying get rid of capitalism. There are not simply 2 choices, a fully capitalists' system where everything is determined by market forces or on the other side North Korea. What Doherty said in the clip is a society that's driven only by the needs of capitalism is a complete catastrophe. The "ONLY" is the important word. To be more specific I could say that a healthcare system ONLY driven by the needs of capitalism or the profit motive is not a good idea. Expressing that sentiment doesn't make someone a communists. Back to the subject. I am sensing that you don't accept covid is a problem that needs to tackled, perhaps you could be clearer about your position.
spacesailor Posted August 16, 2021 Posted August 16, 2021 Democracy Were the London Parliament had the army murder the Northern coal miners !. Were that same paliment passes laws to ger the food from the North Beforke the northerners Can have a share !. That list goes on, untill the Northener,s Danced in the street,s. spacesailor
Flying Binghi Posted August 16, 2021 Posted August 16, 2021 (edited) On 15/08/2021 at 2:54 PM, octave said: ..... In any case whatever his particular political beliefs are isn't the science and the data the important thing? If we were to completely ignore the advice of the Doherty institute would we be doing things differently now? Is the advice from the Doherty Institute radically different from other research organizations? Sweden did barely any lockdowns. Actually, I don’t think they did much at all. How did they go ? . Edited August 16, 2021 by Flying Binghi
Flying Binghi Posted August 16, 2021 Posted August 16, 2021 19 hours ago, spacesailor said: Democracy Were the London Parliament had the army murder the Northern coal miners !. Were that same paliment passes laws to ger the food from the North Beforke the northerners Can have a share !. That list goes on, untill the Northener,s Danced in the street,s. spacesailor Hmmm... you don’t hear anything about them Chinese coal miners..... .
octave Posted August 16, 2021 Posted August 16, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Flying Binghi said: Sweden did barely any lockdowns. Actually, I don’t think they did much at all. How did they go ? . It is not that they did not do anything. On 10 January 2021 Sweden implemented a temporary pandemic law, giving the government more legal powers to limit the spread of Covid-19. The law makes it possible for the government to take measures such as introducing limits on visitor numbers or opening times. https://sweden.se/life/society/sweden-and-corona-in-brief But how did Sweden do? 14621 deaths from a population of 10.23 million compared to Australia with 965 deaths from a population 25.8 million. Edited August 16, 2021 by octave
Markdun Posted August 16, 2021 Posted August 16, 2021 1 hour ago, Flying Binghi said: Sweden did barely any lockdowns. Actually, I don’t think they did much at all. How did they go ? . Pretty bad actually. Around 1500 dead per million of population so far. Compared to neighbouring Norway of 150 dead per million. But still less than basket case countries that allowed cross-border movement of people etc, like the USA (1,800), UK (1,900), France (1,700), and, of-course, Brazil (2,700). Keep in mind Sweden did pretty well considering they had a government MIA mainly because their population is well educated and despite not having lockdown rules, the vast majority actually headed advice to avoid contact with other people. Swedish friends tell us that many Swedes took off to their summer houses. Compared to countries that actually did lockdown with high exposure (ie. not remote like NZ and Australia), look to South Korea (42 deaths per million) and Taiwan. Below is a nifty graph of cumulative Covid deaths per million of population. The Doherty people are pretty smart. But keep in mind there are trade-offs. Yes, a vaccination rate of 80% will bring ongoing daily deaths down substantially, but it is a value judgement, not science, as to what level of deaths is acceptable. For example, the UK now has over 70% of tge population fully vaccinated (over 90% if you include ‘natural immunity’ ) and they appear to find 1.34 daily deaths per million (around 100 deaths per day) acceptable. This applied to Australia would be over 30 daily Covid deaths on an ongoing basis. So when people say we would be ‘living with tge disease’ like the flu, you need to keep in mind the flu kills around 3000 Australians per year....my estimate is that Covid would kill 3 or 4 times that number.....so it is not ‘just like the flu’. If you are a follower of eugenics and involuntary euthanasia, then I suppose the over 10,000 expected deaths per annum we would get from ‘let’s all get vaccinated and let Covid rip’, would be good because the greatest number of deaths will be the aged (not in the labour market) and tge vulnerable, and they are just burden to the economy’. 2
yampy Posted August 16, 2021 Posted August 16, 2021 21 hours ago, spacesailor said: Democracy Were the London Parliament had the army murder the Northern coal miners !. Were that same paliment passes laws to ger the food from the North Beforke the northerners Can have a share !. That list goes on, untill the Northener,s Danced in the street,s. spacesailor Can you post the link to substantiate those claims
Bruce Tuncks Posted August 17, 2021 Posted August 17, 2021 I don't think the percentage of vaccinated population matters...what does matter is the opportunity to be vaccinated. If you turn down a vaccination, then you are stupid and deserve anything you get. Personally, I quite like the idea that being vaccinated will not stop you passing the virus on. 1 1 1
skippydiesel Posted August 17, 2021 Posted August 17, 2021 23 hours ago, spacesailor said: Democracy Were the London Parliament had the army murder the Northern coal miners !. Were that same paliment passes laws to ger the food from the North Beforke the northerners Can have a share !. That list goes on, untill the Northener,s Danced in the street,s. spacesailor Yeah well the powerful (countries) have been bulling the weak since the begging of history. Look what the English did to the Irish - genocide, forced migration, land evictions, starvation, denial of education & religious observance - that in the now distant past. In more recent times: The British imprisoned (judge only courts) political dissenters, completely innocent Irish nationals, shot demonstrators and generally behaved as a hostile colonial power (true they were provoked). 1
danny_galaga Posted August 17, 2021 Posted August 17, 2021 To whoever mentioned Sweden, they didn't do too well https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95699-9 1
Bruce Tuncks Posted August 17, 2021 Posted August 17, 2021 A couple of good things about the poms tho... Recently, I heard an aboriginal activist ( well actually he was as white as me ) being asked about what other colonial power he would have chosen instead of the english... he was stymied for a reply. On similar lines, apparently the blacks in South Africa supported the english against the boers.
skippydiesel Posted August 17, 2021 Posted August 17, 2021 51 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said: A couple of good things about the poms tho... Recently, I heard an aboriginal activist ( well actually he was as white as me ) being asked about what other colonial power he would have chosen instead of the english... he was stymied for a reply. On similar lines, apparently the blacks in South Africa supported the english against the boers. Its all relative and at different times in history the same colonial power can be positively bloody and at another time, almost an angel of mercy & good governance. Don't forget it was the British in South Africa who invented the Concentration Camp 2
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