Covid 19

[facthunter]

Are we in danger of starting a war on the vaccinated who are trying to do the right thing by everybody.' Heroes , happily spreading the virus and KILLING others' FFS .Nev

[bull]

It is fact that now we are seeing so many vaxxed getting the delta varient and not having symptoms but happily spreading it around because they think they are invunarable to covid ,,,WHICH IS A FALSE SENCE OF SECURITY and yes it does reduce the symptoms and severity of infection but,it does NOT stop you from spreading it around because you think your the ducks guts because you have been vaccinated ,fucking hero check out what is happing in the states now with the delta variant infecting unvaxed and vaxed at the same rate of infection whether vaxed or not.  Now before you go on about it will save your life ,,,YOU DO KNOW THAT 99% OF PEOPLE WITHOUT OTHER HEALTH CONCERNS RECOVER FROM COVID...,,99% SURVIVAL RATE WITHOUT THE VAX..,,,,,,,,And then have natural immunity which is far better then the vaccine that does not stop you getting it, but natural immunity does.  ,,,,,,you are a super spreader.....

 

Edited September 11, 2021 by bull

[turboplanner]

My mistake, it's started a month and a half earlier than I predicted.

[bull]

16 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Are we in danger of starting a war on the vaccinated who are trying to do the right thing by everybody.' Heroes , happily spreading the virus and KILLING others' FFS .Nev

Can you dispute any part of what i just said Facthunter? The prevalence of false information about the vax is the real danger ,as a very large part of the uneducated liberal heroes sprouting they are doing the right thing and getting their browny points in their social circle as good social heroes,,,,, do not realise that they are NOT protected from getting and SPREADING THE COV  and are a real DANGER to others.

[Garfly]

48 minutes ago, bull said:

[ps , i,m fully vaccinated myself but that was MY CHOICE BUT I SUPPORT ANY WHO FOR WHATEVER REASON CAN NOT HAVE THE JAB,,,,,,,

 

Bull, I reckon there's hardly a person in the country who does not support those who can not have the jab.  That's not an issue at all. As to your main narrative,  I'd love to know how you arrived at that conclusion. What sources do you trust? 

Actually I don't know - and have not even heard of - a single vaccinated person who has anything like that kind of attitude. Everyone seems well aware that's it's no silver bullet.  Do you really believe such demons exist or is that just a necessary part of the overall story?

Are we really talking about Covid at all?

(Or about 'liberals' - the US label for non-conservatives.)

 

 

Edited September 11, 2021 by Garfly

[octave]

1 minute ago, bull said:

do not realise that they are NOT protected from getting and SPREADING THE COV  and are a real DANGER to others.

You need to present your sources.

[bull]

6 minutes ago, octave said:

You need to present your sources.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/17/health/covid-vaccinated-infections.html

[bull]

3 minutes ago, bull said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/17/health/covid-vaccinated-infections.html

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/vaccinated-people-singapore-make-up-three-quarters-recent-covid-19-cases-2021-07-23/        

SINGAPORE, July 23 (Reuters) - Vaccinated individuals accounted for three-quarters of Singapore's COVID-19 infections in the last four weeks, but they were not falling seriously ill, government data showed, as a rapid ramp-up in inoculations leaves fewer people unvaccinated.

While the data shows that vaccines are highly effective in preventing severe cases, it also underscores the risk that even those inoculated could be contagious, so that inoculation alone may not suffice to halt transmission.

Of Singapore's 1,096 locally transmitted infections in the last 28 days, 484, or about 44%, were in fully vaccinated people, while 30% were partially vaccinated and just over 25% were unvaccinated, Thursday's data showed.

While seven cases of serious illness required oxygen, and another was in critical condition in intensive care, none of the eight had been fully vaccinated, the health ministry said.

 

"There is continuing evidence that vaccination helps to prevent serious disease when one gets infected," the ministry said, adding that all the fully vaccinated and infected people had shown no symptoms, or only mild ones.

Infections in vaccinated people do not mean vaccines are ineffective, experts said.

"As more and more people are vaccinated in Singapore, we will see more infections happening among vaccinated people," Teo Yik Ying, dean of the Saw Swee Hock School of Public Health at the National University of Singapore (NUS).

"It is important to always compare it against the proportion of people who remain unvaccinated...Suppose Singapore achieves a rate of 100% fully vaccinated...then all infections will stem from the vaccinated people and none from the unvaccinated."

 

Singapore has already inoculated nearly 75% of its 5.7 million.

Edited September 11, 2021 by bull

[Garfly]

This is brought over from the other thread. 

But never mind ... never mind.

 

The New York Times

Sept. 10, 2021

By Roni Caryn Rabin

 

Unvaccinated Americans are 11 times more likely to die of Covid, the C.D.C. reports.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/10/health/unvaccinated-covid-19-deaths.html

 

Excerpt:

 

" “As we have shown, study after study, vaccination works,” said Dr. Rochelle Walensky, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, at a White House Covid briefing on Friday.

As more and more Americans become vaccinated, experts always expected that immunized people would represent a greater percentage of hospitalized patients. “What I want to reiterate here is it’s still well over 90 percent of people who are in the hospital who are unvaccinated,” Dr. Walensky said.

“We still have more than 10 times the number of people in the hospital who are unvaccinated, compared to vaccinated,” she added. "

[bull]

12 minutes ago, Garfly said:

Bull, I reckon there's hardly a person in the country who does not support those who can not have the jab.  That's not an issue at all. As to your main narrative,  I'd love to know how you arrived at that conclusion. What sources do you trust? 

Actually I don't know - and have not even heard of - a single vaccinated person who has anything like that kind of attitude. Everyone seems well aware that's it's no silver bullet.  Do you really believe such demons exist or is that just a necessary part of the overall story?

Are we really talking about Covid at all?

(Or about 'liberals' - the US label for non-conservatives.)

 

 

SINGAPORE, July 23 (Reuters) - Vaccinated individuals accounted for three-quarters of Singapore's COVID-19 infections in the last four weeks, but they were not falling seriously ill, government data showed, as a rapid ramp-up in inoculations leaves fewer people unvaccinated.

While the data shows that vaccines are highly effective in preventing severe cases, it also underscores the risk that even those inoculated could be contagious, so that inoculation alone may not suffice to halt transmission.

Of Singapore's 1,096 locally transmitted infections in the last 28 days, 484, or about 44%, were in fully vaccinated people, while 30% were partially vaccinated and just over 25% were unvaccinated, Thursday's data showed.

While seven cases of serious illness required oxygen, and another was in critical condition in intensive care, none of the eight had been fully vaccinated, the health ministry said.

 

"There is continuing evidence that vaccination helps to prevent serious disease when one gets infected," the ministry said, adding that all the fully vaccinated and infected people had shown no symptoms, or only mild ones.

Infections in vaccinated people do not mean vaccines are ineffective, experts said.

"As more and more people are vaccinated in Singapore, we will see more infections happening among vaccinated people," Teo Yik Ying, dean of the Saw Swee Hock School of Public Health at the National University of Singapore (NUS).

"It is important to always compare it against the proportion of people who remain unvaccinated...Suppose Singapore achieves a rate of 100% fully vaccinated...then all infections will stem from the vaccinated people and none from the unvaccinated."

 

Singapore has already inoculated nearly 75% of its 5.7 millio

[bull]

Just now, Garfly said:

This is brought over from the other thread. 

But never mind ... never mind.

 

The New York Times

Sept. 10, 2021

By Roni Caryn Rabin

 

Unvaccinated Americans are 11 times more likely to die of Covid, the C.D.C. reports.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/10/health/unvaccinated-covid-19-deaths.html

 

Excerpt:

 

" “As we have shown, study after study, vaccination works,” said Dr. Rochelle Walensky, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, at a White House Covid briefing on Friday.

As more and more Americans become vaccinated, experts always expected that immunized people would represent a greater percentage of hospitalized patients. “What I want to reiterate here is it’s still well over 90 percent of people who are in the hospital who are unvaccinated,” Dr. Walensky said.

“We still have more than 10 times the number of people in the hospital who are unvaccinated, compared to vaccinated,” she added. "

SINGAPORE, July 23 (Reuters) - Vaccinated individuals accounted for three-quarters of Singapore's COVID-19 infections in the last four weeks, but they were not falling seriously ill, government data showed, as a rapid ramp-up in inoculations leaves fewer people unvaccinated.

While the data shows that vaccines are highly effective in preventing severe cases, it also underscores the risk that even those inoculated could be contagious, so that inoculation alone may not suffice to halt transmission.

Of Singapore's 1,096 locally transmitted infections in the last 28 days, 484, or about 44%, were in fully vaccinated people, while 30% were partially vaccinated and just over 25% were unvaccinated, Thursday's data showed.

While seven cases of serious illness required oxygen, and another was in critical condition in intensive care, none of the eight had been fully vaccinated, the health ministry said.

 

"There is continuing evidence that vaccination helps to prevent serious disease when one gets infected," the ministry said, adding that all the fully vaccinated and infected people had shown no symptoms, or only mild ones.

Infections in vaccinated people do not mean vaccines are ineffective, experts said.

"As more and more people are vaccinated in Singapore, we will see more infections happening among vaccinated people," Teo Yik Ying, dean of the Saw Swee Hock School of Public Health at the National University of Singapore (NUS).

"It is important to always compare it against the proportion of people who remain unvaccinated...Suppose Singapore achieves a rate of 100% fully vaccinated...then all infections will stem from the vaccinated people and none from the unvaccinated."

 

Singapore has already inoculated nearly 75% of its 5.7 millio

[octave]

7 minutes ago, bull said:

SINGAPORE, July 23 (Reuters) - Vaccinated individuals accounted for three-quarters of Singapore's COVID-19 infections in the last four weeks, but they were not falling seriously ill, government data showed, as a rapid ramp-up in inoculations leaves fewer people unvaccinated.

While the data shows that vaccines are highly effective in preventing severe cases, it also underscores the risk that even those inoculated could be contagious, so that inoculation alone may not suffice to halt transmission.

 

Firstly we have to be aware that as the majority of the population is vaccinated then the majority of case will come from the majority of the population.   If say 90% of the population is vaccinated and lets say there are equal numbers of vax vs not vax this does not imply that the vaccine is only 50% effective. apart from that, this fact form your link is pretty clear.   

 

but they were not falling seriously ill, government data showed, as a rapid ramp-up in inoculations leaves fewer people unvaccinated.

 

While the data shows that vaccines are highly effective in preventing severe cases, it also underscores the risk that even those inoculated could be contagious, so that inoculation alone may not suffice to halt transmission.

 

[bull]

21 minutes ago, octave said:

You need to present your sources.

SINGAPORE, July 23 (Reuters) - Vaccinated individuals accounted for three-quarters of Singapore's COVID-19 infections in the last four weeks, but they were not falling seriously ill, government data showed, as a rapid ramp-up in inoculations leaves fewer people unvaccinated.

While the data shows that vaccines are highly effective in preventing severe cases, it also underscores the risk that even those inoculated could be contagious, so that inoculation alone may not suffice to halt transmission.

Of Singapore's 1,096 locally transmitted infections in the last 28 days, 484, or about 44%, were in fully vaccinated people, while 30% were partially vaccinated and just over 25% were unvaccinated, Thursday's data showed.

While seven cases of serious illness required oxygen, and another was in critical condition in intensive care, none of the eight had been fully vaccinated, the health ministry said.

 

"There is continuing evidence that vaccination helps to prevent serious disease when one gets infected," the ministry said, adding that all the fully vaccinated and infected people had shown no symptoms, or only mild ones.

Infections in vaccinated people do not mean vaccines are ineffective, experts said.

"As more and more people are vaccinated in Singapore, we will see more infections happening among vaccinated people," Teo Yik Ying, dean of the Saw Swee Hock School of Public Health at the National University of Singapore (NUS).

"It is important to always compare it against the proportion of people who remain unvaccinated...Suppose Singapore achieves a rate of 100% fully vaccinated...then all infections will stem from the vaccinated people and none from the unvaccinated."

 

Singapore has already inoculated nearly 75% of its 5.7 millio

[Garfly]

 

 

SINGAPORE, July 23 (Reuters) -

"It is important to always compare it against the proportion of people who remain unvaccinated...Suppose Singapore achieves a rate of 100% fully vaccinated...then all infections will stem from the vaccinated people and none from the unvaccinated."

 

Exactly. Nobody is denying that.

But, hell, we all think we are what we believe. That we are our tribal culture.  We're all pathetic in that way.  So let's just hope it passes soon so we can at least re-establish this tiny little tribal boundary around the love of flight.

 

I'm outta here. 

 

[bull]

4 minutes ago, octave said:

 

Firstly we have to be aware that as the majority of the population is vaccinated then the majority of case will come from the majority of the population.   If say 90% of the population is vaccinated and lets say there are equal numbers of vax vs not vax this does not imply that the vaccine is only 50% effective. apart from that, this fact form your link is pretty clear.   

 

but they were not falling seriously ill, government data showed, as a rapid ramp-up in inoculations leaves fewer people unvaccinated.

 

While the data shows that vaccines are highly effective in preventing severe cases, it also underscores the risk that even those inoculated could be contagious, so that inoculation alone may not suffice to halt transmission.

 

You asked for sources,,are you now going to tell me that REUTERS is some far right conspiricy publication ???

 

[facthunter]

 It's always important to read the whole of the article and consider the context and the types of vaccine used. You can't cherry pick articles. Though I'm now double dosed I always wear a "good" mask. The NY times was behind a paywall that said I've exceeded my limit It's Murdoch anyhow so Im not missing out on much but HE got his free Pfizer  when in the UK early in the piece. 

  Putting a group against another (creating division) is a common method used these days to muddy the waters. Misinformation thrives . I can't accept that the people who have done the right thing as advised by all the health officers should be vilified and

demonised Vaccines have done a good job in the past TB, Polio etc. Most people think they are the only real hope in this instance also. Nev

[octave]

Just now, bull said:

You asked for sources,,are you now going to tell me that REUTERS is some far right conspiricy publication ???

 

Ummm I don't understand. I am not questioning the article.   The article points out that yes vaccinated people still can get infected but they are far less likely to get seriously ill.   I am not criticizing or questioning that statement.   Why do you think I would say REUTERS is some far right conspiracy when it pretty much supports what I have been saying.

 

 

[bull]

3 minutes ago, octave said:

Ummm I don't understand. I am not questioning the article.   The article points out that yes vaccinated people still can get infected but they are far less likely to get seriously ill.   I am not criticizing or questioning that statement.   Why do you think I would say REUTERS is some far right conspiracy when it pretty much supports what I have been saying.

 

 

and it supports what i am saying too,doesn,t it???

[bull]

1 minute ago, bull said:

and it supports what i am saying too,doesn,t it???

 The article points out that yes vaccinated people still can get infected but they are far less likely to get seriously ill. BUT can and do still spread the covid amongst the vaxxed and unvaxxed.

[facthunter]

There's a term called "selective perception" where you read into things what YOU want to. Ie two people can have a different conclusion from the same article. Nev

[onetrack]

Bull - So you're quite happy to have a large number of people unvaccinated, and getting the virus - and reportedly, having 99% of them recovering? - because it's "just a little 'flu"?

 

There are major problems with that outlook, which comes directly from the Donald Trump School of Misinformation and Twisted News.

 

For a start, those who are unvaccinated and catch the virus, usually require intensive health care and ventilators. They take up a disproportionate level of health care.

 

They also suffer from serious, long-term health effects, as result of catching COVID-19 - many of which are still not properly understood. Many COVID-19 victims are still suffering from these health problems many months after catching the virus and recovering. This is an additional burden on our health care system.

 

Vaccination is a proven method of protection from many diseases since the late 1700's. It has been refined until it has reached a high level of understanding today, as to what works and what doesn't.

 

Your narrative is grounded in the American fear of authority leading to tyranny, to be avoided at all costs, even if it means your death. This is the narrative of the uneducated and paranoiac, who are fearful of things they don't fully understand, and who are more prepared to believe conspiracies and disinformation, rather than listen to doctors, health professionals and scientists. 

 

The bottom line is that vaccination is our only way out of this pandemic, to reduce the massive damage that it causes to the unvaccinated and the nation in general. In the future, there will be a line drawn between those who are vaccinated and those who are unvaccinated. Being unvaccinated will be like having a criminal record, which prevents you from doing many things, including overseas travel.

[red750]

No-one said vaccination was going to eliminate Covid, but it has proven it will reduce the severity so that you can go on living. Like influenza and the common cold, Covid will continue to be around, but its effects wil be less devastating.

 

Most medications have side effects. I had cisplatin chemotherapy for my cancer. As a result, I got ototoxins from the cisplatin in my inner ear leaving me with vertigo, tinnitus and reduced hearing. Many other medications, like Ibuprofen, create ototoxins. However, I still get up every day, can walk around, drive my car, mow the lawn and so on, after seven and a half years. Could I have done without the side effects? Yes I could. But without the cisplatin, I would most likely be dead. I have yet to hear one good reason for not getting vaccinated if you are in good health.

[Markdun]

Bull, a couple of points about the ‘facts’.  Yes, vaccinated people still get infected and pass the disease on....but much less (around 50%) than vaccinated.  Yes, vaccinated people also get sick and die from Covid, but a great deal less than unvaccinated....around ten times less (this is the 90% efficacy of the vaccine.  And yes, if vaccinated people behaviour changes significantly they can spread the disease more than say unvaccinated person who stays isolated, wear masks etc.  so on this point only you are mostly correct.

On your claim of a 1% death rate you are just wrong....where does that figure come from? The infection fatality rate, or case fatality rate is somewhere between 2 and 4%.  But this hides a lot.  For the over 70 year olds the infection fatality rate is around 20%.....so for every 10 people over 70 who get the disease, 2 will die.  For over 60 year olds it over 5%.

And it’s not surprising that in populations with high vaccinated rates have high numbers of vaccinated people sick and dieting in hospital....remember that 1 in 10 vaccinated will succumb to the disease just like an unvaccinated person.  And in a densely populated city like Singapore with lots of high rise apartments it would not be surprising to see Covid infection rates high despite high vaccination rates and a more educated and intelligent population, because vaccinated people still get infected and spread the disease albeit  less than unvaccinated.

The question for us in Australia is whether to use the public health benefit (reduced transmission) from rising vaccination rates to reduce the incidence of Covid circulating in the community and reduce deaths substantially, or to piss this dividend away to open up for business and travel, accepting a significantly high ongoing death rate of around 40 people per day (again remembering that this would be a death rate of 400 people per day for us if we weren’t vaccinated)?
Someone else mentioned the view of Covid being like influenza....it’s not.  The medicos are learning it’s quite different....unlike the flu, Covid damages other organs than the lungs (heart and blood clots are examples) and also unlike the flu, Covid somehow interferes with gaseous exchange in the lungs.

All this tells us is that it is just plain bull shit that there will be ‘post Covid’, or coming out of Covid, or snap back to normal.  It will become endemic, and will need to be managed forever more.  The question is how is it going to be managed, and like climate change, how will people adapt and the economy restructure to be viable into the future?

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, bull said:

You asked for sources,,are you now going to tell me that REUTERS is some far right conspiricy publication ???

 

Reuters is a news service - certainly not an authority on Covid so not worth the paper it isn't written on any more, and certainly just a shadow of the old Reuters everyone knew so well.

[Markdun]

14 hours ago, jackc said:

Put vaccination record imprinted on Drivers Licences and/or Over 18 cards.

Not interested in using phones for delivering the vaccination status of individuals.

My phone cannot do it, anyway…..

 

https://www.news.com.au/technology/online/security/australias-vaccination-certificates-can-be-easily-forged-with-fake-documents-available-for-270/news-story/b7e5672ca43840a1567fb938a3f69b7f

Jack, so it seems I’m not the only person with a perfectly good smartphone that’s more than 5 years old!
 

I’d like to know why the reverse onus of proof, ie. why isn’t it up to someone enforcing the regulations to prove you are not vaccinated?  If it’s good enough for murder, rape etc that the onus is on prosecution, why not for breaching health regs?  Isn’t this one of those freedoms, innocent till proven guilty?