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walrus

By walrus
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Markdun Well-known member

Markdun

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, jackc said:

Put vaccination record imprinted on Drivers Licences and/or Over 18 cards.

Not interested in using phones for delivering the vaccination status of individuals.

My phone cannot do it, anyway…..

 

https://www.news.com.au/technology/online/security/australias-vaccination-certificates-can-be-easily-forged-with-fake-documents-available-for-270/news-story/b7e5672ca43840a1567fb938a3f69b7f

Jack, so it seems I’m not the only person with a perfectly good smartphone that’s more than 5 years old!
 

I’d like to know why the reverse onus of proof, ie. why isn’t it up to someone enforcing the regulations to prove you are not vaccinated?  If it’s good enough for murder, rape etc that the onus is on prosecution, why not for breaching health regs?  Isn’t this one of those freedoms, innocent till proven guilty?

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octave
octave

As an analogy it is like we are on a boat that is taking on water.     The captain wants us to urgently bail water out of the boat.    Most of the passengers can see the sense in this and ar

Admin
Admin

Ok, thread is now locked. If you would like to continue with free speech on the subject of Covid please go to our off topic sister site called Social Australia

walrus
walrus

If you get a chance to fly, then take it to try and keep current.   ‘’I have been lucky enough to have a few friends and acquaintances who are closely connected with the pandemic. I was warn

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Markdun Well-known member

Markdun

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, jackc said:

Put vaccination record imprinted on Drivers Licences and/or Over 18 cards.

Not interested in using phones for delivering the vaccination status of individuals.

My phone cannot do it, anyway…..

 

https://www.news.com.au/technology/online/security/australias-vaccination-certificates-can-be-easily-forged-with-fake-documents-available-for-270/news-story/b7e5672ca43840a1567fb938a3f69b7f

Jack, so it seems I’m not the only person with a perfectly good smartphone that’s more than 5 years old!
 

I’d like to know why the reverse onus of proof, ie. why isn’t it up to someone enforcing the regulations to prove you are not vaccinated?  If it’s good enough for murder, rape etc that the onus is on prosecution, why not for breaching health regs?  Isn’t this one of those freedoms, innocent till proven guilty?

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red750 Well-known member

red750

Posted
Posted

Mark, did you have to post that THREE times?

 

What freedoms? What about responsibilities? Hope you don't live next door to me. You can't be more specific than Australia as you location?

facthunter Well-known member

facthunter

Posted
Posted (edited)

I think you read too much into it Mark. Plenty of places you must produce a ticket  or an ID. The premises has a duty of care for it's customers and clients and sets a requirement for entry and you have to prove you meet it by an accepted method. It can't operate any other way.

  There are some businesses saying the won't admit anyone who has HAD a vaccine. Id be interested how the fairness of that could be defended in law. But 'we have the right to refuse service to anyone' is often displayed but there are discrimination laws also. It's against the law to serve liquor to an intoxicated person too and you can ose your licence to trade if it's breached. There are dress codes apply too. Nev

Edited by facthunter
onetrack Well-known member

onetrack

Posted
Posted (edited)

Markdun, you're guilty of faulty logic if you think that someone looking to check your vaccination status, is the same as being accused of a crime.

 

There's no accusation of committing a crime in being asked for vaccination proof. You're guilty of using Trump logic. You're obliged to carry an MDL when you're driving, and produce it on request (or produce it for viewing at a police station if you happen to have left it behind), and this is not being accused of a crime, it is merely asking for evidence that you are licenced to drive.

 

What do you do, when you're asked for your MDL when stopped by police? Tell them they have no right to ask such a question, and tell them you've done nothing wrong, and therefore you have a right to proceed on the highways without interference from police, courts or the law? Good luck with that argument, it's been tried in court plenty of times.

 

It's a simple requirement of our legal and governmental systems that you present ID or evidence of licences when requested by those with policing authority.

Perhaps you simply have a problem with authority?  :cheezy grin:

 

Edited by onetrack
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bull Well-known member

bull

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, onetrack said:

Bull - So you're quite happy to have a large number of people unvaccinated, and getting the virus - and reportedly, having 99% of them recovering? - because it's "just a little 'flu"?

 

There are major problems with that outlook, which comes directly from the Donald Trump School of Misinformation and Twisted News.

 

For a start, those who are unvaccinated and catch the virus, usually require intensive health care and ventilators. They take up a disproportionate level of health care.

 

They also suffer from serious, long-term health effects, as result of catching COVID-19 - many of which are still not properly understood. Many COVID-19 victims are still suffering from these health problems many months after catching the virus and recovering. This is an additional burden on our health care system.

 

Vaccination is a proven method of protection from many diseases since the late 1700's. It has been refined until it has reached a high level of understanding today, as to what works and what doesn't.

 

Your narrative is grounded in the American fear of authority leading to tyranny, to be avoided at all costs, even if it means your death. This is the narrative of the uneducated and paranoiac, who are fearful of things they don't fully understand, and who are more prepared to believe conspiracies and disinformation, rather than listen to doctors, health professionals and scientists. 

 

The bottom line is that vaccination is our only way out of this pandemic, to reduce the massive damage that it causes to the unvaccinated and the nation in general. In the future, there will be a line drawn between those who are vaccinated and those who are unvaccinated. Being unvaccinated will be like having a criminal record, which prevents you from doing many things, including overseas travel.

Your misinformation is what is creating the devide, your uneducated outlook is misinformation,this quote of yours just go,s to show how liberal thinking uneducated people like yourself are misinformed about the vaccine and its effects.  The FACTS about your liberal claim that MOST unvaccinated that get covid require ventilators and intensive care is just that "MISINFORMATION" The rate of hospitalisations of unvaccinated people getting covid into intensive care OR ventilators is this :https://ourworldindata.org/covid-hospitalizations Have a real good read and then come back and say that MOST who get covid end up in hospital or intensive care.  You can do math i hope??40.8 million cases in the states why are these people not in intensive care? as only 25000 are in intensive care or ventilators in a case number of 40 million,,,,big difference from MOST REQUIRE INTENSIVE CARE AND VENTILATORS 😎Quote:For a start, those who are unvaccinated and catch the virus, usually require intensive health care and ventilators. They take up a disproportionate level of health care.       https://www.google.com/search?q=covid+case+numbers+united+states&oq=covid+case+numbers+united+states&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i390l3.9385j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

Edited by bull
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bull Well-known member

bull

Posted
Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, Markdun said:

Jack, so it seems I’m not the only person with a perfectly good smartphone that’s more than 5 years old!
 

I’d like to know why the reverse onus of proof, ie. why isn’t it up to someone enforcing the regulations to prove you are not vaccinated?  If it’s good enough for murder, rape etc that the onus is on prosecution, why not for breaching health regs?  Isn’t this one of those freedoms, innocent till proven guilty?

Why not just put huge big tattoos on the unvaccinated, so they can be demonised and attacked just like hitler did in ww2  i,m sure that is what they want isnt it?  

 

Edited by bull
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bull Well-known member

bull

Posted
Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, red750 said:

Mark, did you have to post that THREE times?

 

What freedoms? What about responsibilities? Hope you don't live next door to me. You can't be more specific than Australia as you location?

Same as i hope you dont live anywhere near my relatives or vunarable friends either as you being vaccinated have now become an untrackable, superspreader because you think your protected and can not get covid ,what a laugh that is ......

Edited by bull
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bull Well-known member

bull

Posted
Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, facthunter said:

I think you read too much into it Mark. Plenty of places you must produce a ticket  or an ID. The premises has a duty of care for it's customers and clients and sets a requirement for entry and you have to prove you meet it by an accepted method. It can't operate any other way.

  There are some businesses saying the won't admit anyone who has HAD a vaccine. Id be interested how the fairness of that could be defended in law. But 'we have the right to refuse service to anyone' is often displayed but there are discrimination laws also. It's against the law to serve liquor to an intoxicated person too and you can ose your licence to trade if it's breached. There are dress codes apply too. Nev

Because the vaccinated are a real danger to the unvaccinated, what dont you understand about that? So if a business wants to cater for those who cannot have the vaccine then it is a PERFECT right to refuse entry to vaccinated people because they can be infected without any symptoms and would be an unexceptable danger to those that where unvaccinated for whatever reason..

Edited by bull
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red750 Well-known member

red750

Posted
Posted

What a load of bull. Why do I become an untrackable superspreader. I got vaxxed (second one July 1) so I don't end up with tubes in every orifice. I check in with QR code wherever I go, I wear a mask covering my nose, not my arxe and only leave home for essential shopping or to take my wife to medical appointments. I attend the men's shed from my bedroom by Zoom. How am I a superspreader?

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octave Well-known member

octave

Posted
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, bull said:

Same as i hope you dont live anywhere near my relatives or vunarable friends either as you being vaccinated have now become an untrackable,

my understanding is the the proposed system is one where the app checks your vax status and checks you in. As for unvaccinated people being super spreaders the term super spreader  has definite definition describing a vaccinated person who is out in public as a super spreader makes no more sense than describing an unvaccinated person as a super spreader.

 

As for vaccinated people believing they 100% protected I suspect the majority understand that no vaccine has ever been 100% effective.

 

The fact is that covid is unlikely to go away anytime soon.    It seems that a case of covid doesn't provide long term immunity just like the vax although with the vax we will probably be getting yearly boosters.    Whilst the younger unvaccinated may have the odds on their side with a good outcome I would be wondering how the odds would change with each reinfection.

 

Covid will be around for some time to come, the vaccine does reduce hospitalization and death rates.    If we cant get rid of it we have to make it a less serious disease.   We also have find better treatments for those who do get seriously ill.

Edited by octave
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facthunter Well-known member

facthunter

Posted
Posted

Plenty of people can be infected but show no symptoms Bull  The recovery world wide bases its method on having a high vaccination rate and still doing things like wearing masks etc.  I think the business mentioned was trying to appeal to a market rather than any genuine concern about vaccinated people deliberately trying to infect others. Nev

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bull Well-known member

bull

Posted
Posted
17 minutes ago, red750 said:

What a load of bull. Why do I become an untrackable superspreader. I got vaxxed (second one July 1) so I don't end up with tubes in every orifice. I check in with QR code wherever I go, I wear a mask covering my nose, not my arxe and only leave home for essential shopping or to take my wife to medical appointments. I attend the men's shed from my bedroom by Zoom. How am I a superspreader?

By spreading misinformation about the vaccine and its effects,also your scare mongering assertion that MOST who get covid end up in intensive care or ventilators which is totally against the proven facts available from a wide range of official government sources.   Thats how YOU become a super spreader by convincing others they are protected by the vaccine from the virus,,,,THEY ARE NOT AND THAT IS THE TRUTH,, you might want to try doing that sommeday ,you know tell the truth.....

 

bull Well-known member

bull

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Plenty of people can be infected but show no symptoms Bull  The recovery world wide bases its method on having a high vaccination rate and still doing things like wearing masks etc.  I think the business mentioned was trying to appeal to a market rather than any genuine concern about vaccinated people deliberately trying to infect others. Nev

 

17 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Agreed Nev, but the fact remains that that is a reasonable reason to deny service to vaccinated  to reduce the risk ,as they say???

 

 

bull Well-known member

bull

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, red750 said:

Jeez you make a lot of assumptions.

So do you RED , your problem is you think yours are fact and unfortunetly they are not.

red750 Well-known member

red750

Posted
Posted

If the headlines said "Man wearing seatbelt dies when train hits his car" would you say "Don't wear a seatbelt, it infringes your freedom."?

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octave Well-known member

octave

Posted
Posted

And Bill Shakespeare died of what? Hint not covid

 

 

 

 

Figures from the CDC    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/09/08/health/severe-breakthrough-cases-cdc-studies/index.html      if you want to go to the research paper  COVID-19-associated hospitalizations among vaccinated and unvaccinated adults ≥18 years – COVID-NET, 13 states, January 1 – July 24, 2021

 

62905822_Screenshot2021-09-11142634.thumb.jpg.1fee222796643144626f33c455aa34bd.jpg

 

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