Covid 19

[red750]

1 hour ago, bull said:

Exactly ,yet by your reasoning all unvaxxed are gunna either end up in intensive care or die and that is BULLSHIT TOO and you know it......

Sorry, I had to go and do some essential shopping, in other words, buy something to cook for dinner tonight. I never said ALL unvaxxed are gunna die as you put it. What I said was, if you catch it, your chances of being very ill or dying are much greater than if you are vaxxed. Some unvaxxed will live, some vaxxed will die, so if there's a chance I will catch it, I would prefer to have a milder reaction rather than an extreme one.

[skippydiesel]

My understanding of the NSW hospital system at the moment:

 

Staff shortages, rather then beds, is the most likely short term problem. Gladys seems to focus on beds, however the medical profession are concerned about staffing the beds/wards.

 

I have a close relative working in the Campbelltown, NSW, hospital - she says the situation is becoming very difficult with people presenting with conditions,other than CV19 but also infected with CV19, so needing to be isolated  - something not mentioned by the Gladys team.

[octave]

Anyway its been fun but the debate starting to go around in circles.

 

These are the things I accept until more evidence comes along,

 

Whilst corvid doesn't kill a large percentage of people who get it, its  high contagion rate means that left uncontrolled it could produce a high number of deaths.

Of those who done die some people will become quite ill and some will have lasting effects.

We can somewhat keep a lid on it with lockdowns however we cant do this forever.

We can reduce the rate of spread with hygiene and mask measures.

The vaccine is relatively safe, not 100% but safer than many other medical interventions.

The vaccine is very effective at reducing death and serious illness.

The vaccine is a safer way to induce immunity than to catch covid.

Both immunity from the vaccine and from covid are not permanent

I don't believe having the vaccine should be mandatory.

I do believe that it is OK for a businesses to require its employers to be vaccinated,

I favor vaccine passports/proof but could probably be swayed with a good argument.  

In the US some health insurance companies are increasing premiums for the unvaccinated. If they crunch the numbers and find that the unvaccinated cost more then I am OK with that. 

Covid should not be political but should rely on hard data. This situation moves fast and things change quickly but the data is the key.  I hold in high regard sources such as the CDC. TGA NEJM Lancet etc.

As an individual it seems that the hard data suggest that statistically my health outlook is better by being vaccinated and following sensible guidelines,

 

 

[planedriver]

I agree, sensible guidelines is probably the key

 

[octave]

6 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Staff shortages, rather then beds, is the most likely short term problem.

There is are also issues around staff having to isolate  due to being exposed     Hundreds of staff isolating after Royal Melbourne Hospital Covid-19 outbreak

[jackc]

23 minutes ago, planedriver said:

Another close friend who went into a coma and passed a day after his second jab, hadn't even left the house for over 6 weeks other than to get his jab, he had had no visitors at all in that time, but his death was put down as covid. But of course there are no longer autopsies carried out, so we will never know.

So, in other words the system does not care what he died from? They  just want to ‘pump’ the Covid death figures, to scare everyone.

Screw the Gubmint……

[turboplanner]

53 minutes ago, planedriver said:

Another close friend who went into a coma and passed a day after his second jab, hadn't even left the house for over 6 weeks other than to get his jab, he had had no visitors at all in that time, but his death was put down as covid. But of course there are no longer autopsies carried out, so we will never know.

I can see that already one person has drawn some conclusions from what you said.

They wouldn't have had to do an autopsy to diagnose Covid, just a swab. A Death Certificate isn't a casual document; if there's any doubt a Coroner investigates. Sounds like some information is missing.

[jackc]

6 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

I can see that already one person has drawn some conclusions from what you said.

They wouldn't have had to do an autopsy to diagnose Covid, just a swab. A Death Certificate isn't a casual document; if there's any doubt a Coroner investigates. Sounds like some information is missing.

And that swab has to be done by a forensic pathologist?

That ‘one’  person has a name and despite what you think Turbs, is actually a human being?

[Flightrite]

2 hours ago, jackc said:

Jeez,  I leave at 6am this morning for a 250km round trip to my Aero Club meeting and come home to a raging Covid19 bushfire 🙂.  

The usual fearful suspects have been on here all day (sad really) but it's amusing to read though:-) Ive been out flying, might as well according to all the 'experts I ought to be dead BY NOW:-)😁

[Flightrite]

1 hour ago, planedriver said:

Another close friend who went into a coma and passed a day after his second jab, hadn't even left the house for over 6 weeks other than to get his jab, he had had no visitors at all in that time, but his death was put down as covid. But of course there are no longer autopsies carried out, so we will never know.

That's the tragic part of all this bullshit, the corrupt Govt use people dead or alive for their own grubby  gain!

[Markdun]

4 hours ago, octave said:

 

Octave, I know this is not your piece, but it’s this sort of incorrect logic that really gets my goat....particularly as it purports to be supporting the argument to get vaccinated, when actually it doesn’t, it undermines it. My father used to ask us kids whether white horses ate more than brown horses in Australia.  We of course dutifully always said, horses all eat the same....their colour doesn’t matter’.  And he would always respond with the fact that, in Australia, brown horses eat substantially more than white horses, because there are substantially more brown horses in the country.  

If we have only 5% of the population vaccinated, then even if the vaccine is totally useless, the overwhelming majority of hospitalisations will be of the unvaccinated.  And vice-a-versa, if over 90% of the population are vaccinated and the vaccine is 90% effective, vaccinated people are going to be showing up substantially more in hospital admissions.  And it then follows, using the same flawed argument above, that those opposing vaccination will use the same wrong and seriously flawed argument to counter the benefits of vaccination.  People should learn the stats on horse eating.  Or consider the fact that lawn bowls is the most dangerous sport in the country....the percentage of people dying while playing lawn bowls (or recovering in the clubhouse afterwards) is far more than any other sport.  I say let’s ban lawn bowls or require participants to prove their fitness to play!  I know, why not allow old guys who agree to never play lawn bowls or golf have more freedoms, for example being exempt from CASA or RA-Aus rules?
 

two other points.  First, people DO equate vaccines that are almost 100% effective, like smallpox, diphtheria, polio, with Covid.  Even my sister, a  very experienced triple certificate nurse does so.  And the circumstances of the UK with their ‘freedom day’ which was followed by lots of partying by mostly young vaccinated people (with reduced transmission, but transmission still), resulted in a further wave of Covid with increased hospitalisations and deaths (hello NSW).

Second, I raised the onus of proof as a serious question.  The analogy with a drivers licence is wrong.  If you fail to show your licence to a police officer, the onus is still on the police to prove in a court of law you didn’t have a licence (if you are charged with that), or that you failed to hand over your licence when asked.  I’m not against reverse onus of proof per se, but there needs to be a substantial case to justify it.  Indeed, I have proposed it in legislation I’ve been involved in drafting. Why not have to prove you haven’t been charged or convicted of spiking someone’s drink to enter a club?   What about when you first register a vehicle....they usually ask for ‘proof of ownership’, but (and putting aside that being an owner and registered operator or not the same), they accept a receipt or statutory declaration from yourself, ie. I declare I own the car.  And I’m not sure where the ‘duty of care’ comes into it.  Does this mean a dodgy nightclub is liable when a patron is injured from laced illegal drugs sold inside the club?  I for one have absolutely no trust in any government database system from personal experience.  I was once advised in relation to my top secret security clearance that ‘I failed to disclose my criminal conviction’.  I advised them that there was a good reason for that...I didn’t have one.  But evidently the AFP reckoned I did.  I demanded the reference to the court proceedings that recorded the conviction.....answer, ‘sorry someone made a mistake’.  A person I know was declined a job offer on a police record check because CrimTrac unlawfully and outrageously disclosed to the company a juvenile offence (juvenile offences are meant to be sealed).  I have more examples.

Sorry about the 3 posts....not sure what went wrong.  I’ll blame it on the NBN satellite, or too many tin foil hats in this place.

 

Another great morning for a short flight around the local area today....strong 40 to 50kt northerlies above 5000’, but nice and warm at 12C, and an interesting very rough approach until below the trees and over the airstrip.  Southern Tablelands NSW.

 

[onetrack]

Quote

Why not just put huge big tattoos on the unvaccinated, so they can be demonised and attacked just like hitler did in ww2  i,m sure that is what they want isnt it?

This statement is pure right-wing American BS scaremongering, and one of the most stupid statements I've seen here recently. No-one, anywhere, is suggesting they want all the unvaccinated demonised and attacked.

 

Some of the authorities are going overboard with a demand that anyone employed in a front-line position must be vaccinated - or lose their job. I don't don't believe this is the correct approach, and it's too heavy handed.

 

I notice some police are already protesting the demand that they be vaccinated or lose their job. I agree with their protest. I certainly wouldn't like to be told, I had to be vaccinated or lose my job, if I was still in the workforce. 

 

There are far better ways of approaching this problem. Just encourage employees to be vaccinated - and if they object, move them to an area where they have minimal contact with people. A remote rural posting.

 

There are way too many references to Facebook pages by the anti-vaxxers on previous pages, to give them much credence. Facebook is notorious for aiding misinformation.

 

Facebook exists to promote Facebook, and more billions for Mark Zuckerberg - not to promote accurate scientific information and health education.

[skippydiesel]

2 minutes ago, onetrack said:

This statement is pure right-wing American BS scaremongering, and one of the most stupid statements I've seen here recently. No-one, anywhere, is suggesting they want all the unvaccinated demonised and attacked.

 

Some of the authorities are going overboard with a demand that anyone employed in a front-line position must be vaccinated - or lose their job. I don't don't believe this is the correct approach, and it's too heavy handed.

 

I notice some police are already protesting the demand that they be vaccinated or lose their job. I agree with their protest. I certainly wouldn't like to be told, I had to be vaccinated or lose my job, if I was still in the workforce. 

 

There are far better ways of approaching this problem. Just encourage employees to be vaccinated - and if they object, move them to an area where they have minimal contact with people. A remote rural posting.

 

There are way too many references to Facebook pages by the anti-vaxxers on previous pages, to give them much credence. Facebook is notorious for aiding misinformation.

 

Facebook exists to promote Facebook, and more billions for Mark Zuckerberg - not to promote accurate scientific information and health education.

There is much in your comments, that I agree with however there are work situations/environments where I strongly support mandatory vaccination - The very concept of a safe working environment (an employer legal obligation) demands this in many if not most instances. Basically all work environments where either your work colleagues or customers/public may be put at risk by you or where you are at risk from your interactions with colleagues/the public should require your vaccination.

[Marty_d]

Agree 100% there are industries where vaccination should be mandatory.  If you're medical staff in a hospital or work in an age care facility you can't be moved to an area with reduced contact.  If there is some medical reason the person cannot have the jab then the employer will have to deal with that another way - maybe regular testing etc - but if it's just a choice, then perhaps they should be looking at a different career.

[turboplanner]

6 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

There is much in your comments, that I agree with however there are work situations/environments where I strongly support mandatory vaccination - The very concept of a safe working environment (an employer legal obligation) demands this in many if not most instances. Basically all work environments where either your work colleagues or customers/public may be put at risk by you or where you are at risk from your interactions with colleagues/the public should require your vaccination.

If you've been vaccinated (and assuming the current Vaccinated people can become infected and spread the virus, but can't suffer permanent injury or die position):

1. Your unvaccinated work colleages don't put you at risk

2. Your customers and the public don't put you at risk

3. You put your unvaccinated customers at risk

4. You put your unvaccinated fellow workers at risk

The forseeable risk is in the last two groups, so:

The Employer's duty of care is to ensure that groups 3 &4 are excluded from the business.

If it's an airline groups 3 & 4 can't be part of it or travel on it.

That changes if the government grants an exemption as they did to the medical professionals for Astrazeneca, but the chances of a claim where they might have to pay out are so remote as to be petty cash in the budget whereas the above would have a lot more casualties who could make claims of negligence. (I posted a recent example of a successful claim against just this arrangement in the thread Public Liability)

[jackc]

The natives are getting restless……

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9967693/Vandals-tear-QR-signs-Melbourne-playgrounds-Bayside-City-Council.html?fbclid=IwAR26IyGR2mjgVhJ7pDQMsFH7eASW2hG2qgr2zUm0ZXJ44DM54dXYpMpoidw

[skippydiesel]

5 hours ago, turboplanner said:

If you've been vaccinated (and assuming the current Vaccinated people can become infected and spread the virus, but can't suffer permanent injury or die position):

1. Your unvaccinated work colleages don't put you at risk

2. Your customers and the public don't put you at risk

3. You put your unvaccinated customers at risk

4. You put your unvaccinated fellow workers at risk

The forseeable risk is in the last two groups, so:

The Employer's duty of care is to ensure that groups 3 &4 are excluded from the business.

If it's an airline groups 3 & 4 can't be part of it or travel on it.

That changes if the government grants an exemption as they did to the medical professionals for Astrazeneca, but the chances of a claim where they might have to pay out are so remote as to be petty cash in the budget whereas the above would have a lot more casualties who could make claims of negligence. (I posted a recent example of a successful claim against just this arrangement in the thread Public Liability)

I have read your arguments on this m  - there is logic in what you promote but the facts you use are selective, so at the end your conclusion is, in my opinion, wanting.

[turboplanner]

48 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I have read your arguments on this m  - there is logic in what you promote but the facts you use are selective, so at the end your conclusion is, in my opinion, wanting.

Yes, of course it is wanting because this is just a social media site, I am not a lawyer and therefore cannot provide legal advice. This is merely a few thought bubbles in the air to get people thinking.

 

I certainly will not be visiting my customers unless they are operating 100% vaccinated, and if you had a potential customer who wanted to be taken on a test flight, but was unvaccinated, you would have to make your decision, NGAF not being one of the options.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, jackc said:

The natives are getting restless……

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9967693/Vandals-tear-QR-signs-Melbourne-playgrounds-Bayside-City-Council.html?fbclid=IwAR26IyGR2mjgVhJ7pDQMsFH7eASW2hG2qgr2zUm0ZXJ44DM54dXYpMpoidw

It's worse than that; playground mothers' congregations started again, no masks in another suburb with active cases and the local dog park was crowded with groups not wearing masks and talking at close quarters.

 

The dailymail is not accurate with the "despite no evidence of transmission at any of them" comment, because DHHS closed the playgrounds specifically because they had recorded covid transmissions and had to isolate people at several playgrounds

[Flightrite]

1 hour ago, jackc said:

The natives are getting restless……

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9967693/Vandals-tear-QR-signs-Melbourne-playgrounds-Bayside-City-Council.html?fbclid=IwAR26IyGR2mjgVhJ7pDQMsFH7eASW2hG2qgr2zUm0ZXJ44DM54dXYpMpoidw

People will fight back against the draconian laws, the grubby Govt will NOT oppress everyone!

[turboplanner]

Just now, Flightrite said:

People will fight back against the draconian laws, the grubby Govt will NOT oppress everyone!

This has nothing to do with the Victorian Government whether grubby or not; this is an emergency command.

[KRviator]

An emergency command declared by whom?  The Government, or in many cases, an unelected public official! Who is not accountable to the public for their actions, beyond getting a bad performance review next quarter...

There are no checks or balances applied to these "Declarations of Emergency" beyond time limits, which IIRC, the Victorian Government had a bit of a brouhaha with wanting to extend.

 

Declare a SoE, and you can do (almost) whatever you want, such as imprisoning residents of an apartment block, or stealing (sorry, "Confiscating") alcohol being delivered to residents of said locked-down tower, among a host of other measures.

Edited September 11, 2021 by KRviator

[turboplanner]

4 minutes ago, KRviator said:

An emergency command declared by whom?  The Government, or in many cases, an unelected public official! Who is not accountable to the public for their actions, beyond getting a bad performance review next quarter...

There are no checks or balances applied to these "Declarations of Emergency" beyond time limits, which IIRC, the Victorian Government had a bit of a brouhaha with wanting to extend.

 

Declare a SoE, and you can do (almost) whatever you want, such as imprisoning residents of an apartment block, or stealing (sorry, "Confiscating") alcohol being delivered to residents of said locked-down tower, among lost of other measures.

Declared by the person appointed under the grounds of the State of Emergency, the State of Emergency being democratically declared by both sides of Parliament.

 

To date there have been several Statement of Emegency extensions; not one has been blocked by the opposition.

 

Not that hard to understand.

[spacesailor]

EXEMPTIONS

I seems those exemptions are Not worth the trouble getting them, as the police are Not allowing your exemption !.

But applying the letter of the law, & your appeal will not be acknowledged. 

The fine for no mask while out exercising with your canine friend is over $ 500 !, more than some make in their weekly wage.

The New double dose exemption is the 'Digital ' wallet.

New phone for some !.

New internet for the above,

AND

Digital tracking for ALL .

spacesailor

[facthunter]

Geez spacey you are making me contemplate suicide. Nev