Covid 19

[turboplanner]

There's a big drop from around the 1970s to recent years, but the introduction of national policies like NAPLAN are changing the syllabus back to including many things we need to be able to do in real life.

In Maths where many older people struggle to mentally calculate something, differnt methods have been toaght for multiplication, addition and substraction which are a breeze - way better than the old ways.

For example where we were trained to remember our multiplication tables up to 12 x 12, today a nine year old can multiply four figures by four figures, and where the older addition required adding from thye right and "carrying" leftovers back to the left, the new method starts from the left and is much easier to keep in your head. Not saying I can remember enough to move away from a calculator and Excel, but easy enough to learn.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Once I asked a grandkid what he learned in school that day." Nothing grandpa" was the reply " Seb was being naughty today".

So the rights of the mentally disturbed kids trump the rights of ordinary kids by about ten to one.

I reckon this is the result of deliberate sabotage by the politically correct lot. Not open sabotage , but sneakier as it is disguised with bleeding heart arguments.

[turboplanner]

15 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Once I asked a grandkid what he learned in school that day." Nothing grandpa" was the reply " Seb was being naughty today".

So the rights of the mentally disturbed kids trump the rights of ordinary kids by about ten to one.

I reckon this is the result of deliberate sabotage by the politically correct lot. Not open sabotage , but sneakier as it is disguised with bleeding heart arguments.

My grandson was victimised by one from Prep to Grade 3. The kid would come up behnd him and hit him or push him over and he would get into trouble if he retaliated. The kid obsessed with the same two o three boys and a couple of girls.

 

Having mentally disturbed in the school community isn't fair on the other kids who sometimes suffer permanent scars or other injuries.

 

On the other hand mentally disturbed children don't want to be prevented from having a normal upbringing.

 

The teachers are in the middle every hour of every school day, sometimes also being injured.

 

 

[jackc]

One of the reasons my daughter resigned after many years as a Teacher’s Aide…..

[Flightrite]

Who would wanna be a teacher these days? The system is stuffed & with all this BS Covid crap they are suffering big time along with their parents trying to hold together some sort of normal life!

The sooner we have another ice age the better!

[Marty_d]

54 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Once I asked a grandkid what he learned in school that day." Nothing grandpa" was the reply " Seb was being naughty today".

So the rights of the mentally disturbed kids trump the rights of ordinary kids by about ten to one.

I reckon this is the result of deliberate sabotage by the politically correct lot. Not open sabotage , but sneakier as it is disguised with bleeding heart arguments.

 

To be fair, you ask any kid what they learned in school on any day and 90% of the time the answer is "Nuthin'".

 

Doesn't mean they actually didn't learn anything, just means that they either don't want to talk to you or they don't realise they learned stuff.

 

[octave]

I think it is important to factor in that we tend to have a bias towards believing the we were the last good generation.     

 

I also believe that the biggest determiner of how well a child will do is not necessarily the school but the home.    I have been a private music teacher for most of my working life.   i would teach students at my studio that would come many surrounding schools.    I can tell you that whenever I got a new student I could tell nothing about how dedicated they would be which school they went to, I did not seem to matter whether it was the local public school or the exclusive private school.   What did make a difference was the parents.  Sometimes I would not get to meet the parents until a few lessons in. How well the child was doing would be a good indicator of what the parents were like.     The formula that seemed to work was "involved but not overbearing"    

 

The kids I taught seemed to be bright and well educated and many have gone on to great careers in many areas. 

 

My wife and I did not send our son to school but opted for home education.   In our case this was amazingly successful.    We did not follow a strict curriculum or formally teach him anything,  we just facilitated his natural curiosity,   

 

 

[octave]

6 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

 

To be fair, you ask any kid what they learned in school on any day and 90% of the time the answer is "Nuthin'".

 

Doesn't mean they actually didn't learn anything, just means that they either don't want to talk to you or they don't realise they learned stuff.

 

I can relate to this, my father would always ask me this question and it would drive me mad.   I think in his mind education was more about learning and memorizing a series of facts.   He wanted to hear the new facts I had learnt that day whereas the reality was that the school day was filled with doing repetitive simultaneous equations, not new knowledge every lesson but rather practicing a skill.  

[Marty_d]

Our sires' age was worse than our grandsires'.
We, their sons, are more worthless than they;
so in our turn we shall give the world a progeny yet more corrupt.

• Book III of Odes, Horace
  circa 20 BC

So for over 2000 years people have been complaining about declining standards of youth...

[turboplanner]

9 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

Our sires' age was worse than our grandsires'.
We, their sons, are more worthless than they;
so in our turn we shall give the world a progeny yet more corrupt.

• Book III of Odes, Horace
  circa 20 BC

So for over 2000 years people have been complaining about declining standards of youth...

It fluctuates up and down.

When you reseearch for ancestry the copperplate handwriting of the 1800s makes ours look like scribble and the spelling is also better than today. When you get to the 1700s spelling is atrocious nd handwriting not much better. Going back through 1600s probably showed complacency. The 1500s, and 1400s showed precision writing, very good spelling and most names identified correctly. This level of precision seems to go right back to about 500 AD where the names start to look quite different to the names we are familiar with and it seems to be about the same right back to about 1500 BC.

[Marty_d]

18 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

It fluctuates up and down.

When you reseearch for ancestry the copperplate handwriting of the 1800s makes ours look like scribble and the spelling is also better than today. When you get to the 1700s spelling is atrocious nd handwriting not much better. Going back through 1600s probably showed complacency. The 1500s, and 1400s showed precision writing, very good spelling and most names identified correctly. This level of precision seems to go right back to about 500 AD where the names start to look quite different to the names we are familiar with and it seems to be about the same right back to about 1500 BC.

The percentage of the population who could read and write is vanishingly small (in England at least) as you go back through the centuries.

 

So that lovely precision writing pre 1600 is probably because the only people who could write, and did regularly, were the priesthood (who were basically professional writers and copiers), some of the aristocracy and perhaps the occasional educated merchant.  Plus, writing materials (paper and ink) were relatively expensive so you made damn sure you did a good job.  No running to Big W for a ream of paper and a box of ball point pens.

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by Marty_d

[turboplanner]

Just now, Marty_d said:

The percentage of the population who could read and write is vanishingly small (in England at least) as you go back through the centuries.

 

So that lovely precision writing pre 1600 is probably because the only people who could write, and did regularly, were the priesthood, some of the aristocracy and perhaps the occasional educated merchant.  Plus, writing materials (paper and ink) were relatively expensive so you made damn sure you did a good job.  No running to Big W for a ream of paper and a box of ball point pens.

Yes, and those were the people who recorded the births, deaths, marriages and then there must have been a period where the ferals were let in to do the records, and the obvious spelling errors started, and families just changed their names if they didn't like them, so you sometimes have to use thre or four cross references to be sure you have the right person. By the early 1800s you can pick up how the census-taker and registrar "corrected" names, and got them wrong, and then there was a cleanup leading to accuracy about the same as the pre 1600 and the writing as good or even better.

[waraton]

Kids education...f-%k!  I have 3 teens. During lockdown material is distributed online and via post (to accommodate a disturbingly significant number of kids without internet or laptops). Learning material is targeted to the lowest denominator and this is largely true outside lockdown as well. My oldest boy is 15 and seeks out additional material to fill his day and we make sure he does. This young bloke was signed off with a RPC X Country and Pax endorsement at the age of 15 and 6 weeks of age a couple of months ago. He will be featured in the next sport pilot. My middle bloke is 13 and recently pulled his motorbike to bits as it was running rough and thanks to you tube repaired it. He struggles with books and classrooms but is now half way through the PPL theory syllabus where he and I take turns reading page by page of the text book, discussing it, and watching youtube to visualize the lesson as well. He is developing a deep understanding of concepts and has great memory retention. He will sit most of his exams for RPC during school holidays during the next 12 months. My 12yo makes the world bend to his will. 

 

I am an older dad and remember the time I spent with adults as a young adult (before computer games took over the lives of kids), I make sure the adults in my kids lives are role models and supportive. My wife and I spend time getting into where the kids are with life and learning. My kids are fortunate on so many levels but mostly that they have a loving family and supportive community where they have opportunities. 

 

There are so many valid reasons raised in this thread why education fails but remember education is so much more than school. Most of us can contribute to the dreams, motivation and self-esteem of a young person in our life. Go and get involved (or more involved) through your aero club, Rotary, Lions, Apex, neighbours, grandkid or your own kids if you have been slack. If you can't help directly encourage someone else to. 

 

They have massive challenges facing them into the future, challenges we are leaving to them to deal with and they know it.  

 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

I'm an ex secondary School teacher who left when the NEW Whyndam? scheme came in in the mid 60's. I believe that experiment cost a  couple of generations of kids a better education..

 Society has come to expect the teacher to do EVERYTHING for their kid(s) more and more. That's not realistic . It's a difficult job dealing with people of any age. Humans are complex entities and the world is getting more complex and uncertain for everybody not just the young. The young have a natural curiosity about nearly everything.. Shame to not utilise it more.  BIG  subject. Nev

[Flightrite]

I put a lot of blame of restlessness and a non desire to learn due to discipline, or lack of it! We have become a weak nation where we pander to the weak, the youth of today have little respect & know they can't be touched! Discipline at home & at school back when was administered liberally! Dad used to belt the crap out of us boys as did the head master, never did us any harm & taught respect! I feel sorry for teachers, they are in a war with no weapons!

Edited August 26, 2021 by Flightrite

[octave]

1 minute ago, Flightrite said:

I put a lot of blame of restlessness and a non desire to learn due to discipline, or lack of it! We have become a weak nation where we pander to the weak, the youth of today have little respect & know they can't be touched! Discipline at home & at school back when was administered liberally! Dad used to belt the crap out of us boys as did the head master, never did us any hard & taught respect! I feel sorry for teachers, they are in a war with no weapons!

I managed to raise a healthy successful child into adulthood without physically assaulting him.

[onetrack]

Octave and Facthunter are right on the mark. Teachers are expected to be the all-knowing educator who produces well-educated kids. Most teachers struggle with a wide range of kids who all absorb information differently. They have to try and adjust their teaching within limited time frames and are expected to produce all top-grade students. Some kids appear to be dumb as rocks, but they simply learn differently and pick up information better in different formats. My better half learns better when music is attached to the learning process.

 

One woman teacher I know said she was staggered to find how Aboriginal kids see (and learn) things completely differently to Anglo-Saxon kids. They ignore material things when viewing an area, and concentrate on Nature items, such as what the tracks are on the ground, what has happened to the trees or bush, or what is happening with the sky.

 

But the greatest problem teachers face is lack of support from parents. Parents fail to get involved in teaching their kids - or worse, become abusive towards teachers because their kid is "learning nothing".

It must be a real battle trying to handle disruptive, abusive and downright aggressive kids, who are following their parents example. "You can't touch me, I'll sue ya!" is typical of these kids learning the wrong things.

 

Of course, the current line of not touching kids in any way, is a complete reversal of what we received as kids in the 1950's.

I was caned nearly every day at primary school by a "revered" headmaster who would have been charged with child abuse today.

He was a embittered, vicious child beater with a cruel military background, who should never have become a teacher - and he left psychological scars on me that lasted for decades. 

What is worse, despite being only a small man, he was backed up by a deputy headmaster who was well over 6 foot (1.82M) and equally as vicious with a cane.

When you're a small child and being beaten mercilessly by a giant of a man for such petty infringements as "talking in class", it can't help but leave major scars.

 

Edited August 26, 2021 by onetrack

[jackc]

I was expelled from a prestigious boarding school after 2.5 years of learning nothing, the following 1.5 years at a public school I passed my Intermediate Certificate Victoria easily, and was appointed a school prefect in my last year.

Some schools can be sh1tholes…….

[facthunter]

I would say there ARE teachers who should not be doing the job as they have the wrong attitude or are what we called "untrained Graduates". who had some degree or other but no DipEd type training.

I had classes of up to 55 and got sent to schools in Western Sydney where some teachers didn't even complete one period it the classroom..If you get them ALL against you,  you,are gone..Usually in about 3 days.. Nev 

[Old Koreelah]

Very interesting discussion. My two bob’s worth:

 

Current school systems are still too much like the training facilities set up to serve the Industrial Revolution and military recruitment. Like Nev, I remember huge classes where too many kids fell by the wayside and the cane was used freely.

 

Modern schools try to cater for individual differences, but are denied the funding to do that properly. We are well into the 21st Century and my granddaughter struggles in a class of thirty-odd, while society spends lavishly on new stadiums, casinos and pleasure palaces for the wealthy.

 

Everyone is busy, but too many parents out-source their kids’ education; I know some who out-source their upbringing as well. No wonder they go off the rails.

The other end of the scale is home schooling, which has its own issues.

 

If we are really fair dinkum about nurturing our future talent, then we must stop slavishly copying failed ideas from America and Britain.

We might learn from Finland.

 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/why-are-finlands-schools-successful-49859555/

https://leverageedu.com/blog/finland-education-system/

 

This thread belongs on the other site.

[Jabiru7252]

I think we recently have had here in Adelaide two separate stabbings in as many days, both at reasonably good schools. Put 'challenged' kids in 'normal' schools and they WILL be bullied.

[planedriver]

I for one, would not wish to be school teacher these days for quids, and I know quite a few of them.

It is my opinion that so many of the problems encountered, stem not from the school itself, but from the family home.

One particular friend who was teaching year 10, said that on many occasions if he had to pull a boy into line, the next he knew was the father coming to the school wanting to punch the crap out of him, and on one occasion being threatened with a knife. Fortunately, when the parent was faced with the size of this bloke, the threats fizzled out.

By parents getting involved in this way, the kids have no respect at all for any authority. He added that his most successful students seemed to come from homes which had a loving environment, allocated responsibilities and fairly firm guidelines.

Back when I was at school, we had teacher who'd been a Regimental Sergeant Major in the army for many, many years, and struck a lot of fear into the kids if they were not doing the right thing. I too got a few wacks with the stick he carried, but he was always fair, though very tough. When he died some years later, it was absolutely amazing to see who turned up at his funeral. There would have had to have been at least two dozen of who had been the schools biggest tough-nuts from the slum area that was nearby, who'd come to pay their respects to him.

That was a very memorable moment, which indicated that his discipline had taught love and respect.

RIP Ernie, you tough old bastard. You did well.

[turboplanner]

I wouldn't worry too much. I'm into about my seventh month of online schooling. The teachers are doing five year course at uni now including behavioural psychology, and I'm in awe at how they can pull and online class into gear and get through a lessons with questions coming in every few seconds and the kids totally focused on the lesson. Effectively its Zoom, but for some classes we go straight into the US system alongside US kids and no one even blinks. A book review for nine year olds includes identifying the narrative, what the writer intended, the use of persuasive adjectives etc - deconstructed and reconstructed in way more depth than 30 years ago. There's less of the stuff we never used and more day to day issues  one last week being to organise and cost a theoretical camping trip, costing materials and food etc. It was good to see the result of a well thought out online programme when Victoria came out on top of the other states in the NAPLAN tests.

[planedriver]

Good to hear!
 

[pmccarthy]

Our headmaster at Wagga High was a very short man who stood on a block to cane people. He did it a lot and seemed to enjoy it. I got it once as a job lot with all the boys in my class.