Landing Fee's

[Munger]

Morning All,

 

Due to our issues at Lismore (YLIS), and a statement made by the Manager of Commercial services that landing fees are market-based, it has lead me to some questions that I would like to throw out there:

 

1) How are airport fees calculated? The obvious answer would be: Cost to run the airport - other income / number of landings....but that does not work out in the real world due to variability of traffic (e.g.: Covid).

 

2) Are councils actually calculating what airport fees should be or just simply 'what ever we have * maximum increase we can do'?

 

3) Most importantly: What do you thing is a reasonable landing fee from $0 to $15 (per tonne, one tonne minimum)?

 

Have a great day!

 

[poteroo]

 ' Market ' based  =  whatever an equivalent sized airport is charging + extra for all the perceived 'additional ' benefits that their airport offers.  Never a minus for what it lacks!

 

Anything under $20 is actually costing the airport administration more than it recoups because of the overheads involved in processing invoices. (they take a long time to work out what we in small business know from way back!).  Don't tell them this = red rag to a bull!   As well, you're wasting your breath because council admins are the smartest guys in the room.

 

Councils with RPT airports also calculate everything on the basis that 'little' planes cause runway/taxiway damage or wear & tear on a weight based pro rata calculation. Just as they calculate airport hangar site lease rates on 'main street ' numbers. 

 

The major issue in dealing with airport owners is that both staff and councillors are changing over short intervals. Arrangements which might have been acceptable last year are likely to be opposed by both new staff and councillors this year.  Nothing lasts forever!

 

 

[spacesailor]

Doesn't the type of runway have a bearing on what fees are ecceptable.

Sealed or grass, l think grass would be a cheaper option.

spacesailor

[Ironpot]

1 hour ago, poteroo said:

Anything under $20 is actually costing the airport administration more than it recoups because of the overheads involved in processing invoices. (they take a long time to work out what we in small business know from way back!). 

 

 

Already happening - Rockhampton charges $5.59/t subject to a $22.95 minimum monthly charge.  I think YMMB does something similar.

[440032]

You can drive into any of these towns, stay a few days, spend your $, and get charged nothing for entering or parking as long as you like in the street (meters excepted).

You don't pay for upkeep of the parks, the roads, council services, nothing.

Fly a plane in and let's go baby, the cash cow has arrived.

[RossK]

30 minutes ago, 440032 said:

You can drive into any of these towns, stay a few days, spend your $, and get charged nothing for entering or parking as long as you like in the street (meters excepted).

You don't pay for upkeep of the parks, the roads, council services, nothing.

Fly a plane in and let's go baby, the cash cow has arrived.

But you do pay registration and fuel excise, and therefore pay for the roads and upkeep of such.

In GA you don't pay registration or licence fees, so who funds airports?

99.5% of the population never visit local aerodromes, and you expect them to pay for them?

I don't have a solution to aerodrome funding, but paying $10 to land somewhere doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

[spacesailor]

AND planes don,t pay " rego, fuel tax, AND big sales tax ?.

spacesailor

[Keith Page]

8 hours ago, Munger said:

Morning All,

 

Due to our issues at Lismore (YLIS), and a statement made by the Manager of Commercial services that landing fees are market-based, it has lead me to some questions that I would like to throw out there:

 

1) How are airport fees calculated? The obvious answer would be: Cost to run the airport - other income / number of landings....but that does not work out in the real world due to variability of traffic (e.g.: Covid).

 

2) Are councils actually calculating what airport fees should be or just simply 'what ever we have * maximum increase we can do'?

 

3) Most importantly: What do you thing is a reasonable landing fee from $0 to $15 (per tonne, one tonne minimum)?

 

Have a great day!

 

What are the landing fees for?

We pay tax to have public infrastructures, fuel tax where dose that money go.

So landing fees are a simple case of double taxing. 

The government is getting a bit too handy with their taxes.

Just like our income tax a percentage of that tax is supposed to go to an aged pension not any more, not even rescinded.

Simple case of grab at any cost.

 

[turboplanner]

3 minutes ago, Keith Page said:

What are the landing fees for?

We pay tax to have public infrastructures, fuel tax where dose that money go.

So landing fees are a simple case of double taxing. 

The government is getting a bit too handy with their taxes.

Just like our income tax a percentage of that tax is supposed to go to an aged pension not any more, not even rescinded.

Simple case of grab at any cost.

 

Ironically these days with a lot of mogas users, a lot of the fuel excise and taxes goes to roads, or more precisely goes into general revenue and comes out to pay for upkeep and new infrastructure.

98% of the population may not agree with any money being taken out of their taxes to pay for recreational flying.

98% of Council Ratepayers whould probably give you a faster answer on taking their money.

So I don't think there is double taxing, and at a lot of airfields, ratepayers are kicking in.

A percentage of income tax still pays for an aged pension, unless someone else has decided to fund it.

I don't think there's too much grabbing going on in relation to airfields, and if you want to rattle that cage, there are probably some who should be find raising and contributing to preserve a long term future.

 

[Munger]

2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Ironically these days with a lot of mogas users, a lot of the fuel excise and taxes goes to roads, or more precisely goes into general revenue and comes out to pay for upkeep and new infrastructure.

98% of the population may not agree with any money being taken out of their taxes to pay for recreational flying.

98% of Council Ratepayers whould probably give you a faster answer on taking their money.

 

That is some interesting thoughts in regards to mogas...so we should ask either tax free mogas or have a percentage of the fuel excise being spend on airfields (out of interest: isn't there a case that the fuel excise is not actually spend on roads?)

 

So what about the council rate payers that actually are pilots too?

 

[Flightrite]

I avoid dromes where Ldg fees are payable as much as I can, it's a rip off, always has been but hey pilots are rich so lets target them as we/they have mostly a captive market! Grubs!

[spacesailor]

Carefull !.

They have two taxes on fuel. We don,t want a Third tax, on top of those other two.

spacesailor

[Ironpot]

I love free strips. But, having watched a few of my mates put care into the maintenance of their private strips I don't begrudge reasonable charges by anyone. Even a grass strip needs to be mowed, I acknowledge that there is a cost of ownership and as long as it's reasonable I'll pay up and look sweet.

 

I do get annoyed about the gouging e.g. Cairns and Mt Keith ... and charges for parking 

 

 

 

 

[slb]

Landing fees for aircraft at council owned airstrips should be the same fee as boats using council owned ramps. 

[RossK]

Boats pay Registration.

Better Boating Victoria has lobbied the state government successfully for free parking at ramps and several ramp upgrades in regional VIC, using the argument that the registraion fees should go to boating facilities.

[Mewp]

A lot of regional council strips were once federal government strips. The Feds passed the airports to councils with a large cash incentive which was, I am led to believe, to be invested and the returns used to help fund future airport costs. Most councils forgot that and absorbed the funds into general income. As far as landing fees go for recreational users we could pay a donation as a lot of council provided camping sites do. This would remove the need for administration, issuing of receipts etc. Larger regular commercial operations would and possibly do negotiate directly with councils and airport operators. As far as road funding goes Councils fund local roads and get state grants or contracts to manage regional main roads. Highways are directly funded by federal government. Fuel excise goes to general revenue and is spent wherever funds are deemed to be needed. Well that's what happened when I was a local council administrator many yrs ago. I am for user pays and do donate when asked, but when Council funds are used for skate ramps, walking trails tennis courts, aquatic centres, bike tracks, boat ramps, wetlands etc I get a little annoyed we are seen as a burden.

[Munger]

3 hours ago, Mewp said:

A lot of regional council strips were once federal government strips. The Feds passed the airports to councils with a large cash incentive which was, I am led to believe, to be invested and the returns used to help fund future airport costs.

There is a few aviators here that remember this happening. Is anyone out there with more detail on this? Dates or legislation's?

[Kenlsa]

1994 from my not so good memory 

[440032]

Bacchus Marsh Victoria for example, the transfer deed (from Dept of Transport and Communications) on behalf of the Commonwealth to the President, Councillors and Ratepayers of the Shire of Bacchus Marsh was signed on 9 October 1992. And with that transfer, the local authority (the shire etc) agreed to certain things as set out in the deed. Including accepting $240,000 grant for various works to be completed within 5 years.

The whole shebang was leased for 50 years from 22 DEC 1993 to Western Region Sporting Aviation Group Inc. "at no cost".

Some names have of course changed since 1993.

[Bruce Tuncks]

At Edenhope, the aerodrome was made serviceable to allow medical  planes to land there. And the water-bombing planes use the airfield on fire days.

I don't know how these services are valued, but most country airfields would be similar I think.

I reckon " 98%" of the ratepayers would agree that these services are worthwhile, and of course they need to be paid for.

[Munger]

33 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

reckon " 98%" of the ratepayers would agree that these services are worthwhile, and of course they need to be paid for.

I think you are right, and we do have JETA1 here at YLIS for these services...

 

...and then, when you thought sanity may prevail, our Councilor Elly Bird wanted to charge the Westpac Rescue helicopter a landing fees for dropping patients off on the roof top landing pad of our Hospital...(I wish I has kidding!!!)

 

With this survey, I really want to get an idea of what recreational pilots think is a fair price. From what I have seen so far, airport fees are just plucked out of thin air, because 'they are similar airport, so we can charge the same', rather than some actual analysis...

[APenNameAndThatA]

Does anyone know the cost to councils of maintaining an ALA, and how many movements they typically have a year? Knowing this would help with working out about costs. 

[Mewp]

On 28 July 2021 Lismore council have an approved grant of $300,000 from round 2 of the Federal Regional Airports Program for the Construction of a dedicated run-up bay to improve safety. Lot of money for a run up bay. I think we as general tax payers have subsidized Lismore quite generously.

[Student Pilot]

22 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

At Edenhope, the aerodrome was made serviceable to allow medical  planes to land there. And the water-bombing planes use the airfield on fire days.

I don't know how these services are valued, but most country airfields would be similar I think.

I reckon " 98%" of the ratepayers would agree that these services are worthwhile, and of course they need to be paid for.

Edenhope is a good runway, I use it in the summer on fires. We used it 3 days and about 10 loads last summer, how do you work out cost recovery of that sort of work? If Edenhope wasn't available then nearest strips would have been 45 minutes to an hour turnaround. No doubt the fires we worked on would have spread more and cost a lot more in lost assets if we couldn't load in Edenhope. As quoted before, travellers don't pay to use parks, toilets, parking or roads driving through towns. Why should flying be any different? 
Little wonder GA is on it's knees, from CASA, Federal government, Air Services Australia and local council all gouging what they can from those rich bastards that fly. I no longer have a private aircraft because of the costs.

[Munger]

3 hours ago, Mewp said:

 Lismore council have an approved grant of $300,000 from round 2 of the Federal Regional Airports Program for the Construction of a dedicated run-up bay to improve safety.

...something that we have been asking for at least 20 years...and proper all weather taxiway and an all weather ramp for the flood parking....and, and, and....the reason this has gone ahead is because we finally have an 'Airport Coordinator' (who has done a great job so far)....

 

From what I have been reading in this thread, there is two camps (please correct me if I am wrong):

1) Bugger off, we already pay through the nose for everything,

2) OK, I will contribute something to say thank you.

 

So what is a reasonable amount to contribute without feeling that we have been raped? Me personally, I think $5 to $6 for a full stop in a UL is not too unreasonable and the $1.76 for a touch and go is a joke....

Ramp parking $50 per week at tie downs or $135 per night at lit apron......yeah, nah. (personal opinion). For that matter, should you be paying landing fees at your home port, when you are a rate payer there (that includes ppl paying for regular storage in a hangar)?