Base>Final LOC • A theory (Air Facts Journal, July 2021)

[Garfly]

 

https://airfactsjournal.com/2021/07/reducing-loss-of-control-accidents-in-five-minutes/

[BirdDog]

Interesting article.  Thanks for posting.

 

I was trained by an instructor who focused heavily on the B2F turn, so it has been hammered into me, the do's and don'ts  I can understand how people can quickly get into trouble though. 

[kasper]

I would throw in location and the training of the instructor as well

... my instructors were all long in the tooth ultralight pilots not GA

... all my training was at a non-tower non-GA airfield

 

B2F errors were always allowed to develop in early training with focus on balanced turn as the core.  The fact we were still a relatively long time from touchdown allowed the instructor to highlight the runway alignment error and either allow correction or go around.

 

B2F errors were just part of the fun of flying and as you progressed in training it was just a focus change on deciding earlier on in the B2F turn if you can correct it with continued turn past 90 and then realign or just throw away that approach and go around early.

 

I found that mindset has "set" in me and I am pretty good at focusing on balance first and if I end up off alignment by a small margin so be it  ... and if its too much off alignment I go around.

On average I probably go around more than the average pilot but I am happy ... its just that much more flying I get to do 😉 

[BirdDog]

Kasper, I am with you.

 

I concentrate on the turn (fly the aircraft) before worrying about if I am lined up.  Given the size and class of my bird, at most airports, I have a lot of runway ahead of me, with plenty of time.  And if not... give it the beans and get some more air time!  LOL!

 

[Flightrite]

Interesting article joining the volumes of others that cover the same subject/s. It all boils down to training at the end of the day, from the classroom to the handling of the flying machine, it's always been too easy to get a plane ticket & retain it, there in lies the core issue!

Eg: I went up flying with a friend of our Aeroclub who hadn't flown in many months mainly due the Covid lockdown bullshit just as a safety pilot & instead of just converting Avgas to straight & level noise I mentioned try a few stalls & steep-ish slow flight, he mentioned he had not done a stall since his flight test many years ago or ever been shown slow flight turns!

Again there in lies the core issue, training or lack of it!

Edited August 8, 2021 by Flightrite

[Flyingfish]

As Kasper points out, training environment is significant. My initial training was at Bankstown, with three parallel runways. Both instructors and ATC drummed into us the importance of not overshooting the turn to final because of the real risk of a mid-air collision with an aircraft using the adjacent runway.  

I had developed a habit of flying too slowly through the base and final turns, such that when I first flew with a different instructor to normal, he shouted, ''Do you want to die?'' as I did what I thought was a normal approach. The emotion of the moment seared his comments in my memory, even though I was sure he was overreacting. After reading many turn/spin accident reports in subsequent years, I am thankful for that short sharp lesson which has probably kept me alive.

In situations where overshooting final is dangerous, helps to start the turn onto final early, especially with a tailwind on base. But it is all about ensuring a balanced turn, and keeping the speed up by lowering the nose as necessary.

[Bosi72]

Keep the ball in the centre and nose below horizon. Check stall speeds for various Angle of Banks from your POH. Don't assume instructor see everything.

 

 

[Garfly]

Although, of course, those published stall speeds for various Angles of Bank assume a level turn and might not apply when you drop the nose below the horizon, unloading the wing in a descending turn.

 

 

There's a lengthy discussion of the issue in this Reddit thread:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/48o96k/fear_of_base_to_final_turn/

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Garfly

[Bosi72]

The aircraft will stall at particular Angle of Attack, not the speed.

 

People learning to fly need to know simple numbers and those from POH are safe when the nose is on and below horizon. It is easier to slow down an aircraft on final, than recover from spin at 500ft.

[Flightrite]

Bosi whilst that's true re AoA for stall 90% of AC don't have a stall indicator hence we have speedo's to use as a base in which to fly to. Fortunately most of the basic flying machines out there are fairly forgiving of poor quality handling skills otherwise there would be a zillion more headstones reading stall/spin!

 

[kasper]

2 hours ago, Bosi72 said:

Keep the ball in the centre and nose below horizon. Check stall speeds for various Angle of Banks from your POH. Don't assume instructor see everything.

 

 

You assume that every aircraft has or could have a ball - they do not and a whole group recreational aircraft cannot have them.

 

Your homework is to work out the two general types of aircraft that RAAus have on their register that cannot have a ball ever.

Hint - Both groups cannot spin

Hint - Neither groups fly by reference to the nose and horizon 😛

Edited August 9, 2021 by kasper

[Bosi72]

22 minutes ago, kasper said:

You assume that every aircraft has or could have a ball - they do not and a whole group recreational aircraft cannot have them.

 

Your homework is to work out the two general types of aircraft that RAAus have on their register that cannot have a ball ever.

Hint - Both groups cannot spin

Hint - Neither groups fly by reference to the nose and horizon 😛

There are ways to use our body to tell (usually buttocks), however it comes with experience.

If installing $150 or $40 small ball indicator is the problem, then a Lunapark is probably the closest place where a person can practice and acquire those skills.

 

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/bank_indicat.php?clickkey=5266

 

https://www.amazon.com.au/Sun-Company-306-R-gage-Inclinometer/dp/B003D2AVMO/ref=asc_df_B003D2AVMO/?tag=googleshopdsk-22&linkCode=df0&hvadid=341744964201&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3044931865966335272&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1000567&hvtargid=pla-526338884538&psc=1

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kasper]

Missed the point of my question Bosi ... there are rec aircraft that CANNOT use a balance ball - the physics of the balance ball cannot and does not apply to them.

Fortunately those groups know that a ball is not part of their flying ... and they also know that where the 'nose' is has nothing to do with their flying.

My point was that your statement is not universal to all recreational aircraft - balls and nose position are not universal and cannot be used in some aircraft as references.

 

And your buttocks comment worries me more - it will not in my opinion work quick enough to tell your mind the aircraft is in a dangerous position because if you are slow enough low enough and you start pulling or ruddering around the corner to keep that centreline you do not need to be very much out of balance for that incipient spin to start on the turn to final.

 

I much prefer to focus on maintaining a safe speed and a balanced turn with lower priority being maintenance of the exact centreline as I roll out ... and for ALL of that I am not even looking at the panel to see a ball in a turn.

 

If its 3 axis - I am flying a picture out the front - your nose picture (ball if fitted) would confirm but I was taught not to be looking inside as I turn

If its WS - I am flying a bar position and foot throttle - ball not possible - physics means its useless and you can't spin in any event

If its 2 axis - I am flying a turn feeling the stick weight  - ball not possible - physics means its useless and you can't spin in any event

 

All three have very different feedbacks to me as to what  and how I am going - one has stall/spin risk and the others have spiral dive/airspeed risk.

[Flightrite]

I think most people know we are talking about conventional A/C here when it comes to coordinated turns!! Your 'point' was more antagonistic than anything else!

Edited August 9, 2021 by Flightrite

[kasper]

I would disagree they are antagonistic but sorry if they came across as such. 
1. I ASKED the question to lead out the types that were not and got nothing on that back. 
2. what did come back was worrying to me as IMO you should not be looking inside in a 3axis when turning as a general rule and even more do if that turn is base to final. 
3. adding feeling it in your bum over safe margin over stall speed and not mentioning the priority of coordination of flight over flying a turn over the ground is a trigger to me. 
 

Again sorry if that came off antagonist but I’m very careful here to not attack the poster but the content of the post. I was clear that a question asked had not been answered and directly commented on material added in the reply. 

[Flightrite]

Not gunna get into a debate on this but yr comment ' you should not be looking inside in a 3 axis when turning" is pure nonsense! With over 42 years driving planes from basic stuff to heavy metal my eyes are on swivels inside & out during any maneuver performed visually & manually flown!

[Bosi72]

Kasper, I am not arguing with you. I am sharing my experiences when flying conventional aircrafts. 

Assuming you are refering to ultralight trikes (as per image in your avatar), unfortunately I don't have any experiences with such aircrafts neither I know any statistics of base to final stalls in trikes. My comments are applicable to conventional aircrafts which was from the original post. 

 

However, let me be proactive, maybe a "yaw string" normally used in gliders could be used in trikes where the engine pusher is at the back ?

 

 

[kasper]

9 minutes ago, Bosi72 said:

Kasper, I am not arguing with you. I am sharing my experiences when flying conventional aircrafts. 

Assuming you are refering to ultralight trikes (as per image in your avatar), unfortunately I don't have any experiences with such aircrafts neither I know any statistics of base to final stalls in trikes. My comments are applicable to conventional aircrafts which was from the original post. 

 

However, let me be proactive, maybe a "yaw string" normally used in gliders could be used in trikes where the engine pusher is at the back ?

 

 

FYI a slip skid string will not work in either a trike or 2axis.  Both do slip in turns to an extent and as they have no rudder or equivalent control it will just waggle about in the wind giving no useful info to the pilot. 
 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

5 hours ago, kasper said:

I would disagree they are antagonistic but sorry if they came across as such. 
1. I ASKED the question to lead out the types that were not and got nothing on that back. 
2. what did come back was worrying to me as IMO you should not be looking inside in a 3axis when turning as a general rule and even more do if that turn is base to final. 
3. adding feeling it in your bum over safe margin over stall speed and not mentioning the priority of coordination of flight over flying a turn over the ground is a trigger to me. 
 

Again sorry if that came off antagonist but I’m very careful here to not attack the poster but the content of the post. I was clear that a question asked had not been answered and directly commented on material added in the reply. 

My own beliefs about this are as follows. You need to glance in the cockpit while you are turning, otherwise you will not know if your sight-picture flying is correct. 

 

The way to know if you are in co-ordinated flight is with looking at the ball or seat of your pants or both. So, you have to use the ball as reference while you are learning to feel through your bottom if the turn is coordinated. 

 

So, to me it makes no sense at all to emphasise flying coordinated turns AND criticise both looking the ball and flying by the seat of your pants. 

 

Can you explain how you coordinate your turns if not with the ball and not with the buttocks? 

[Bosi72]

If your aircraft's POH doesn't have a table like this:

 

Then use the table below (from Bob Tait RPL/CPL books) to calculate new stalling speeds :

 

For example in Foxbat A22LS, multiply level-flight stalling speed with the square root of Load Factor.

 

AoB	34deg	48deg	60deg	75deg	85deg
Vs = 42kts	47kts	51kt	59kts	84kts	143kts
Vso = 32kts	36kts	39kts	45kts	64kts	109kts

 

Yes, there is much more involved than this (weight, climbing, descending...).

Regardless, for a student learning to fly, these numbers will be sufficient to know.

Add 5kts buffer and you'll be safe.

 

 

 

 

[Blueadventures]

8 hours ago, Bosi72 said:

If your aircraft's POH doesn't have a table like this:

 

Then use the table below (from Bob Tait RPL/CPL books) to calculate new stalling speeds :

 

For example in Foxbat A22LS, multiply level-flight stalling speed with the square root of Load Factor.

 

AoB	34deg	48deg	60deg	75deg	85deg
Vs = 42kts	47kts	51kt	59kts	84kts	143kts
Vso = 32kts	36kts	39kts	45kts	64kts	109kts

 

Yes, there is much more involved than this (weight, climbing, descending...).

Regardless, for a student learning to fly, these numbers will be sufficient to know.

Add 5kts buffer and you'll be safe.

 

 

 

 

Like, I put a reminder in the top left of my panel, I read to refresh from time to time and know its there; however if ever needed the event will tell its effectiveness.

 

[Thruster88]

Having the placard is good. Putting a DMMS (defined minimum manoeuvring speed) line right on the ASI and adjacent panel would be even better. 1.4 x 33 = 46 knots. We never go below this speed until late final. DMMS is also best climb and best glide, the goto speed when things turn to shite and our brains are mush.

 

Your clean and flap stall speeds are the same?  

[Blueadventures]

3 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

Having the placard is good. Putting a DMMS (defined minimum manoeuvring speed) line right on the ASI and adjacent panel would be even better. 1.4 x 33 = 46 knots. We never go below this speed until late final. DMMS is also best climb and best glide, the goto speed when things turn to shite and our brains are mush.

 

Your clean and flap stall speeds are the same?  

Yes, to do a blue line.

[APenNameAndThatA]

13 hours ago, Blueadventures said:

Yes, to do a blue line.

I thought the Nynja was single engined?