SIAI Marchetti take-off crash (Idaho, July 2021)

[Garfly]

 

 

 

 

[Student Pilot]

Didn't watch the rundown on it only about 5 seconds off the ground to crash. Control lock or seat slid back

[Garfly]

You should start your own Probable Cause channel , SP.  The Ozzie Dan Gryder LOL!

 

 

 

BTW, it's important to note that the audio and video are not actually in sync in the first video (as explained in the YT Description).

 

What You Haven't Seen

 

"On July 24, 2021, an SIAI Marchetti SM.1019B, registration N28U, was destroyed following a loss of control and collision with terrain shortly after takeoff from Lewiston-Nez Perce County Regional Airport (KLWS), Lewiston, Idaho. The pilot, Navy aviator Dale “Snort” Snodgrass, was fatally injured. The Marchetti was owned by 717 Aviation Inc, and was being operated as a Part 91 flight. With nearly 5,000 flight hours in the F-14 Tomcat, Snodgrass was the highest-time Tomcat pilot in the world. Snodgrass commanded Fighter Squadron 33 during Desert Storm, after which he was promoted to Navy Captain. Nothing further at this time.

 

Note:

Periods of silence longer than a half-second are truncated in the audio between 0:00 and ~0:53. The audio and video may appear to be synchronous. They are not.

 

 

This is an interesting movie about a Marchetti 1019 shot at Caloundra, Qld.

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Garfly

[rgmwa]

Tragic accident. I had the seat slide back in a 172 once. Luckily it happened early in the take-off run, so I aborted without problems apart from upsetting the tower by exiting the runway without asking permission.

 

[Thruster88]

All Cessna aircraft in Australia at least have now been fitted with a secondary seat stop system, it is a seat belt type reel that only unlocks when the lever is pulled right up. We check these and the seat rails every annual.

 

It is unlikely that the control lock was in place, it is very obvious when in place. It is also unlikely that the seat slid back given the pilot made a transmission about the time of stall.

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

1 hour ago, rgmwa said:

Tragic accident. I had the seat slide back in a 172 once. Luckily it happened early in the take-off run, so I aborted without problems apart from upsetting the tower by exiting the runway without asking permission.

 

Whoa. That’s the real deal. 

[onetrack]

That is the most frightening takeoff I have ever witnessed on film or video. He just went straight up. Could have perhaps been something reasonably heavy in the cabin that came adrift, went rearwards, and threw the C of G right out?

 

One would hope it wasn't a heavy tool left in the fuselage. This video brings back memories of the B-747 lost at Bagram, when the heavy military vehicles on board, reportedly broke free on takeoff, and rolled backwards.

[Garfly]

 

Then there's this one:

 

 

[onetrack]

Another thing I find quite amazing about the Dale Snodgrass crash, is the number of people who are within a short distance of the crash, who just stand there watching - or even ignore the crash, to keep on working!! Unbelievable!

 

Even the bloke who ran across the runway, and who was first on the scene - why didn't he grab a fire extinguisher on the way?? If I was anywhere near that crash, I'd be grabbing the nearest fire extinguisher, and making for the crash scene like an Olympic sprinter.

Even if the pilot was beyond saving (as was likely the case), and even if a hand-held extinguisher was inadequate to halt the flames completely, you'd be hoping you'd quell the fire enough until the fire truck got there. Just saving the aircraft remains from extensive fire would make the crash investigation that much easier.

 

The whole scenario speaks of a poorly-run airport operation. "A guy crashed? Yeah, not my problem!" 

 

I find it extremely hard to believe that a bloke with experience on 98 different aircraft, would forget a gust lock, or not do a controls full authority check, as part of his pre-flight checks. But we're all human after all, and it has happened.

[rgmwa]

I think the shock of witnessing a crash like that makes people react in ways that may not seem logical. There is a chapter in ‘Fate is the Hunter’ where Ernest Gann describes he and another pilot in his parked jeep freezing after seeing a DC3 crash and start to burn in front of them. He struggled to understand his own reaction and it had a profound effect on him.

Edited August 8, 2021 by rgmwa

[Garfly]

 

 

[IBob]

I think he's barking up the wrong tree entirely here: while the dual trim tabs will provide a powerful trim, I would be surprised if they would overpower the pilot's ability to move elevator down, especially as it slowed in the climb.

 

Here's an alternative possible scenario:

Note the horizontal green tube that links the front stick to the rear stick, close to the floor, clearly visible at 2.00 in the above video.

With stick back, that tube is raised, pushing the stick forward will lower it. And any solid object that has slid back during takeoff, lodging under that bar, will prevent the pilot moving the stick forward. Something like the fire extinguisher, visible at 0:33 would do it.

And that's all it would take....

[FlyBoy1960]

I think he is off on A tangent because he seems to be so personally invested. I have never seen an aircraft where you cannot overpower the trim, I doubt it would even get through certification if it was something close because there are limits on the amounts of control  forces that are allowable through the design

[kgwilson]

I had the seat rails give way in a C172 about 30 years ago. A friend had just imported it from the US & it had been sitting in the desert for several years after being impounded by the DEA. It had a 180hp engine but the paint & interior was stuffed. This was before he fully refurbished it. It had a coarse prop but climbed out really well with the extra power. The seat let go at about 2-300 feet & the effect on AoA was a sudden jerk up. Instinctively I made a grab for the top of the panel & somehow got the nose down before the panel (plastic fascia cover) ended up coming off on my lap. Ultra scary but I survived.

 

It didn't look like that to me as it was a completely smooth AoA increasing curve. The casual attitude of some of those on the ground after witnessing this was awful.

Edited August 8, 2021 by kgwilson

[Student Pilot]

57 minutes ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

I think he is off on A tangent because he seems to be so personally invested. I have never seen an aircraft where you cannot overpower the trim, I doubt it would even get through certification if it was something close because there are limits on the amounts of control  forces that are allowable through the design

Cessna's from 180 onwards are VERY heavy, I doubt I could overpower a full deflection trim especially if the seat was not in the optimal position.

[Garfly]

And I think that Juan Browne is making the point that the turbine on that little tail-dragger is a key factor regarding the necessary trim grunt, in this aircraft.. (Especially if, as he suggests, the electric trim happens to be reverse rigged.)

[FlyBoy1960]

12 minutes ago, Student Pilot said:

Cessna's from 180 onwards are VERY heavy, I doubt I could overpower a full deflection trim especially if the seat was not in the optimal position.

 

I had a straight tail 182 for years and I know they are heavy, but they are not that heavy you can't control them.   This guy was a pro from what i am seeing online

[IBob]

3 minutes ago, FlyBoy1960 said:

 

I had a straight tail 182 for years and I know they are heavy, but they are not that heavy you can't control them.   This guy was a pro from what i am seeing online

Indeed. And if your life depended on it?

Furthermore, that aircraft never reached any great speed, so the principal force acting on the trim would be from the propwash...

[Flightrite]

Very tragic:-( If only he had the piece of mind to pull the power off or reduce it, hope they get to the bottom of this awful event:-(

I'm not surprised few raced to the accident scene initially, shock, confusion & not wanting to get involved in something you have no idea how to behave, humans aren't all built the same!

[FlyBoy1960]

1 hour ago, Flightrite said:

Very tragic:-( If only he had the piece of mind to pull the power off or reduce it, hope they get to the bottom of this awful event:-(

I'm not surprised few raced to the accident scene initially, shock, confusion & not wanting to get involved in something you have no idea how to behave, humans aren't all built the same!

especially in the USA, let's say the guy was pulled out of the wreckage but became a paraplegic and he would sue the rescuers saying that the way they pulled him out of the wreckage caused his paraplegia.   A lot of people in the US are simply afraid of litigation to offer assistance in an accident

[Flightrite]

Flyboy that's very true, we do live in a litigious world these days sadly:-(

Many years ago I came across a VeeDub that had just rolled on a country road, I pulled up the same times as another guy coming the other way, we dragged her out well away from the car after crawling in & turning the ignition key off first due the strong smell of petrol. She was hysterical & yelled at us for not wanting to crawl back in to get here bag!

[poteroo]

5 hours ago, Student Pilot said:

Cessna's from 180 onwards are VERY heavy, I doubt I could overpower a full deflection trim especially if the seat was not in the optimal position

Low hours and a C180/185 can be a very chastening experience : instructors need to be right on their game when doing these t/w endorsements.  Back in the dim past of the 60's,  I had a junior commercial doing his 1st t/w on a C185. He opened to full power in the same way as a C150, and away we went - predictably through the LHS markers. In the process, his seat unlocked, and he went aft at great speed, with the seat running off the runners. (real men don't use seat locks!).  He ended up in the rear row of seats - significantly altering CG for the remaining pilot to cope with. An empty 185 is a mean beastie, and I just managed to get it airborne before the scenery loomed rather close. It took a lot of strength, but in my 20s it wasn't impossible.  We all learn, and my young CP went on to become an experienced PNG pilot, and then onto Compass & Ansett - gaining his command on 737s there.

 

But back to the Sia Marchetti accident.  Looks like control locks still in as a 1st guess, as I can't imagine anyone using full aft trim to have landed it previously. In any event, the pilot was a well trained and experienced person who would probably run a checklist with some care and should thus have reset both rudder & elevator trim.  

[IBob]

5 minutes ago, poteroo said:

 

 

But back to the Sia Marchetti accident.  Looks like control locks still in as a 1st guess, as I can't imagine anyone using full aft trim to have landed it previously. In any event, the pilot was a well trained and experienced person who would probably run a checklist with some care and should thus have reset both rudder & elevator trim.  

Yep. Which is why I think something shifting back under the front-to-rear-stick torque tube with the initial acceleration and stick back takeoff, making it then impossible to get the stick forward, is a possibility: all the preflight checks would go just fine.

[Garfly]

Yeah, Blancolirio's in his latest video speculates that the 'hat' trim switch on the control stick might have been wired back-to-front.

And the control lock seems to have been exonerated (by those who know the type) due to the impossibility of taxiing with it in place. 

[APenNameAndThatA]

9 hours ago, kgwilson said:

I had the seat rails give way in a C172 about 30 years ago. A friend had just imported it from the US & it had been sitting in the desert for several years after being impounded by the DEA. It had a 180hp engine but the paint & interior was stuffed. This was before he fully refurbished it. It had a coarse prop but climbed out really well with the extra power. The seat let go at about 2-300 feet & the effect on AoA was a sudden jerk up. Instinctively I made a grab for the top of the panel & somehow got the nose down before the panel (plastic fascia cover) ended up coming off on my lap. Ultra scary but I survived.

 

It didn't look like that to me as it was a completely smooth AoA increasing curve. The casual attitude of some of those on the ground after witnessing this was awful.

Im not so sure. There might have been people who were already there that we could not see. At one point the control tower says for rescue crews not to run over people running to the plane. 

 

Also, in emergencies, everyone seems to think that they have to do extraction. In fact everyone has different jobs.