The hit and miss art of CTAF separation.

[kgwilson]

A few years ago coming back to my home aerodrome I made a 10 mile inbound, then an overhead joining call & heard nothing else. If there is no-one else around that's my last call. I like fairly tight circuits & turn base at about 1000 fpm down. Then I spotted a C172 on final in front of me. I made a call & went full power but forgot to push carb heat off & for a second or 2 was a bit confused at the lack of power. That sorted I watched the landing and turnaround & then he stopped half way along the runway. I made a call on every leg and eventually asked what the !*!* he was doing as I had to go around again.

 

Later at the clubhouse after an initial terse chat I found out he heard nothing and made inbound and downwind calls & his other radio was on area frequency. After testing the radio on CTAF we found it wasn't working at all. He knew radio 2 was working at least receiving as he'd heard other broadcasts. A simple solution would have been to have both radios on CTAF once in the 10 mile radius area. Also testing both radios would have been a good idea. That said I have had radio failures so there is no silver bullet. Keeping a good lookout especially in the circuit is essential and only supplemented with radios and ADSB.

[Garfly]

Generally, at uncontrolled airports, it's all too obvious that way too much of a pilot's attention gets soaked up with (mostly) baseless separation anxiety. Meanwhile, the merest glance at a functioning traffic alert screen can show there's no conflict to worry about.

 

As we've come to learn from playing around with EFB traffic, targets display their vertical distance from you as, plus or minus, hundreds of feet.  So a nearby Qantas target at +350 will probably not be a worry (Flight Levels can also be filtered) but, on the other hand, that converging Q-Link showing -009, reducing, could be a biggie. Mind you, if you have ADSB-OUT, that departing RPT (assuming radio probs) should already be alerted to your presence (esp. with newer generation TCAS/fish-finder gear) 

 

Anyway, any close, converging target with two leading zeros, for me, means  "Oh-oh ..." 

 

Obviously, if we're in the circuit together, even three zeros is just fine ( Oooh ...) just as long as all the ducks are otherwise lined up as they should be.

 

It can be instructive to listen in on a handheld at a busy airfield whilst watching the action on an iPad. Nowadays, with EFB traffic plus ADSB-IN, you sometimes get to see, as well as hear, all the players involved. In such a situation you can ache to intervene (but don't dare) in some long and complicated back and forth between aircraft who are - all too plainly to you -  long ago and far away vis-a-vis each other.

 

So when most of us finally come to accept this new tool and learn to apply it in our sector, it's not only the occasional, if disastrous, mid-air we'd avert but on each and every flight we can wander the skies a bit more relaxed, or at least, be freed up to worry more about aviating and less about communicating.

 

Or ... would we prefer Airservices Australia's big and brilliant Class E solution to the problem? 

 

Yes, the sky really is falling in!!!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Garfly

[aro]

2 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

I dont understand the negativity toward using traffic alerts via a screen in the circuit area. It only takes a quick glance at this screen shot to see there is an aircraft turning base for runway 15

What we don't know:

• how long ago that was - it could be 1 second, 5 seconds, 15 seconds. I haven't found anywhere the EFB companies document that. I think where traffic is gathered from the distributed network of receivers it can be as much as 90 seconds behind reality. I have an ADSB receiver, often it will show 2 icons for the same aircraft until it works out they are the same - the position can be quite different.
• What happens if the traffic info is interrupted e.g. temporarily blocked by aircraft structure. It could 1) keep displaying the traffic in the last known position i.e. stationary 2) assume the traffic maintains course and speed and calculate a position or 3) remove it from the display
• how many aircraft are not being displayed. Some airports ADSB probably shows 80-90% of traffic, others maybe <50% due to traffic mix. You need to be looking out the window not at the screen.

I fly from a busy airport, and most (not all!) traffic shows up with ADSB. How I use the EFB traffic display:

• 10+ miles out I listen on CTAF and look at the traffic on the EFB. In particular I want to figure out from radio calls how many aircraft do not show on the traffic display, and their sequence (if doing circuits) in relation to the ones that do show. Also, my position in relation to any other inbound aircraft.
• 3-5 miles out I have a good picture of the traffic and concentrate on spotting the aircraft visually
• Joining the circuit I might take a glance at the EFB to confirm if it looks like there might be a conflict, e.g. if I think there should be someone on crosswind/early downwind but I can't spot them. The traffic display might confirm whether they are there, or have left the circuit.
• Once in the circuit, the EFB is away and it's all radio/visual. It's too easy to lose sight of the aircraft you need to follow if you are looking at your screen.

No-one is saying that EFB traffic isn't a useful tool. The issue is whether it would be a help or a hindrance in the case that opened the thread - a collision on final. Inside 1-2 miles the EFB position is not reliably accurate enough and you should be using visual separation.

[KRviator]

On 26/08/2021 at 9:25 AM, RossK said:

Technically, turning base is the only call you're required to make, so if he was doing circuits that's all he would be making. But yes, he should have heard your joining call and either spotted you and made room, or called you and let you know where he was, so you could make room.

"Technically" you aren't required to make any call, except as required to avoid a collision. If you can confidently say you're the only one within cooee, you don't need to make any calls, though a broadcast turning base is recommended...

 

CAR166C refers:

Quote

166C  Responsibility for broadcasting on VHF radio

             (1)  If:

                     (a)  an aircraft is operating on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, a non‑controlled aerodrome; and

                     (b)  the aircraft is carrying a serviceable aircraft VHF radio; and

                     (c)  the pilot in command of the aircraft holds a radiotelephone qualification;

the pilot is responsible for making a broadcast on the VHF frequency in use for the aerodrome in accordance with subregulation (2).

             (2)  The pilot must make a broadcast that includes the following information whenever it is reasonably necessary to do so to avoid a collision, or the risk of a collision, with another aircraft:

                     (a)  the name of the aerodrome;

                     (b)  the aircraft’s type and call sign;

                     (c)  the position of the aircraft and the pilot’s intentions.

Note 1:       See the AIP for the recommended format for broadcasting the information mentioned in this regulation.

Note 2:       For the requirement to maintain a listening watch, see regulation 243.

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by KRviator
Fixed quote syntax

[Garfly]

27 minutes ago, aro said:

What we don't know:

• how long ago that was - it could be 1 second, 5 seconds, 15 seconds. I haven't found anywhere the EFB companies document that. I think where traffic is gathered from the distributed network of receivers it can be as much as 90 seconds behind reality. I have an ADSB receiver, often it will show 2 icons for the same aircraft until it works out they are the same - the position can be quite different.
• What happens if the traffic info is interrupted e.g. temporarily blocked by aircraft structure. It could 1) keep displaying the traffic in the last known position i.e. stationary 2) assume the traffic maintains course and speed and calculate a position or 3) remove it from the display
• how many aircraft are not being displayed. Some airports ADSB probably shows 80-90% of traffic, others maybe <50% due to traffic mix. You need to be looking out the window not at the screen.

I fly from a busy airport, and most (not all!) traffic shows up with ADSB. How I use the EFB traffic display:

• 10+ miles out I listen on CTAF and look at the traffic on the EFB. In particular I want to figure out from radio calls how many aircraft do not show on the traffic display, and their sequence (if doing circuits) in relation to the ones that do show. Also, my position in relation to any other inbound aircraft.
• 3-5 miles out I have a good picture of the traffic and concentrate on spotting the aircraft visually
• Joining the circuit I might take a glance at the EFB to confirm if it looks like there might be a conflict, e.g. if I think there should be someone on crosswind/early downwind but I can't spot them. The traffic display might confirm whether they are there, or have left the circuit.
• Once in the circuit, the EFB is away and it's all radio/visual. It's too easy to lose sight of the aircraft you need to follow if you are looking at your screen.

No-one is saying that EFB traffic isn't a useful tool. The issue is whether it would be a help or a hindrance in the case that opened the thread - a collision on final. Inside 1-2 miles the EFB position is not reliably accurate enough and you should be using visual separation.

 

Well this latency thing is an interesting technical question we should try to clear up. My understanding is that air-to-air ADSB is almost real time.  There could, of course, be latency between the SkyEcho2, say, and the iPad but in my limited experience of it, I can't say as I've noticed any. 

 

In laying out the latency argument, you speak of delays in "distributed networks" but as I quoted in an earlier post:      ...  as Airservices tells it :FAQ_ADS-B_DEC16.pdf

 

"Australia has adopted a single system that allows aircraft with ADS-B IN equipment to receive ADS-B OUT from all equipped aircraft without the need for ground based translator (or “rebroadcast”) stations. In our huge country, translator stations, which are necessary to make a dual system work, would be extremely expensive. Further, translator stations on the ground add another point of failure in the relaying of air traffic data."

 

In any case, in the OP I made no mention of ADSB. My intention was to have us discuss whether we need to improve our game in busy circuits; both radio use and tactics to stay safe when comms go awry.   The ADSB issue represents for me, though, a good thread drift, since I think it's also pertinent and important. But it'd be a pity if the special case of screens-in-the-circuit got in the way of our discussion of both issues: ADSB use in general (esp. affordable types for us) and the danger of being untrained to handle busy circuits. 

 

 

 

[aro]

5 minutes ago, Garfly said:

Well this latency thing is an interesting technical question we should try to clear up. My understanding is that air-to-air ADSB is almost real time.  There could, of course, be latency between the SkyEcho2, say, and the iPad but in my limited experience of it, I can't say as I've noticed any.

It is "almost real time" but I don't know what the latency is. As I said, it could be 1 second, 5 seconds... the programmers will make a decision on how frequently to update based on resource usage, battery usage etc. The other question is what happens if the signal is shielded by structure - does it the display stay in the last received position, or does it move based on a calculation?

 

It's not noticeable at normal distances. If you are within e.g. 1/2 mile, where you should be using visual separation, it could become significant.

 

11 minutes ago, Garfly said:

In laying out the latency argument, you speak of delays in "distributed networks"

My understanding is that Airservices will not provide traffic info. Avplan display traffic info collected by (I think) one of the internet traffic display sites so you can see most ADSB traffic even if you don't have your own receiver. It also displays a lot of glider traffic from a different network. The latency in this display is likely unknown and variable. So you have more traffic displayed, but you need to be aware that there might be different levels of accuracy in the different types of traffic.

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, aro said:

It is "almost real time" but I don't know what the latency is. As I said, it could be 1 second, 5 seconds... the programmers will make a decision on how frequently to update based on resource usage, battery usage etc. The other question is what happens if the signal is shielded by structure - does it the display stay in the last received position, or does it move based on a calculation?

 

It's not noticeable at normal distances. If you are within e.g. 1/2 mile, where you should be using visual separation, it could become significant.

 

My understanding is that Airservices will not provide traffic info. Avplan display traffic info collected by (I think) one of the internet traffic display sites so you can see most ADSB traffic even if you don't have your own receiver. It also displays a lot of glider traffic from a different network. The latency in this display is likely unknown and variable. So you have more traffic displayed, but you need to be aware that there might be different levels of accuracy in the different types of traffic.

 

Yes, of course, we need to be aware of the limitations of all our tools; first and foremost "Alerted See and Avoid" (See vid.) 

Therefore we use them all to cover the occasional weaknesses of some.

We've heard heaps of scary stories, just in this thread, alone, of the failure of eyes and ears and cognitive processing.

But nobody's suggesting distrusting our senses.  If anything, just the opposite.

 

Yes, we'll await the boffins' answers on the latency problem, if it exists (I haven't yet found it mentioned in ASA white papers) but as long as I keep seeing aeroplanes turning up exactly when and where they should, I'll keep trusting (but verifying) my SE2.  Ditto my eyes and ears and brain.

 

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Garfly

[Garfly]

2 hours ago, aro said:

What we don't know:    //

       

 

• how many aircraft are not being displayed. Some airports ADSB probably shows 80-90% of traffic, others maybe <50% due to traffic mix.  You need to be looking out the window not at the screen.

 

BTW, this might be another one for the list (Actually, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't disagree, Aro ;- ) 

 

• how many aircraft are obscured to the pilot's view but perfectly clear on his/her traffic display?

   You might need to glance at your screen now and then, not just look out the window.

 

 

Anyway, that was the conclusion here:

NTSB Report Cites Failure Of ‘See and Avoid’

In Alaska Midair

Mark Phelps

April 20, 2021

6

 

 

 

 

 

The NTSB unanimously agreed on the probable causes of a May 2019 midair collision in Alaska that killed six and injured 10. The board cited obstructed views due to aircraft structure and passengers and the lack of an aural traffic alerts in crowded airspace.

 

The pilot and four passengers in a de Havilland Beaver floatplane operated by Mountain Air Service died, as well as one passenger in a de Havilland Otter operated by Taquan Air, when they collided at 3,350 feet. The rest of the passengers in the Otter survived along with the pilot ...

 

According to the board Vice Chairman Bruce Landsberg, “see and avoid” was not sufficient in the high-traffic sightseeing area where the floatplanes were operating. Board Chairman Robert Sumwalt cited “preoccupation with matters unrelated to [flight] duties such as attempting to provide passengers with a scenic view and physiological limits on the human vision, reducing the time opportunity to see-and-avoid other aircraft.”

 

The NTSB also noted the Beaver pilot would have had his view obstructed just before the collision by the airplane’s structure as well as the passenger to his right. In addition, a window post would have impeded the Otter pilot from spotting the Beaver in time, according to the board’s findings. The board’s human performance specialist noted that the Otter pilot last recalled looking at his in-cockpit traffic display “about four minutes before the collision.”

 

The probable-cause finding from the board also cited the lack of an FAA requirement for aural and visual traffic alerts on airplanes carrying passengers.

 

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/ntsb-report-cites-failure-of-see-and-avoid-in-alaska-mid-air/

 

 

From the AvWeb Comments:

 

• Larry S April 21, 2021 at 12:24 pm

  ” is the airspace around the area where the collision occurred covered by adsb?”

  If both airplanes had ADS-B out AND in, they’d be able to ‘see’ each other directly. There’s no such thing as “covered by ads-b” as in radar like coverage. Now then, would the pilots have been paying attention to an ads-b in traffic screen … likely not.

   
• John Mc April 21, 2021 at 1:21 pm

  The article says that the Otter pilot had not checked his in-cockpit traffic display in about four minutes. ADS-B won’t do you much good if you don’t look at it .....

 

[kgwilson]

About 30 years ago in NZ I was landing at Pauanui airpark and the wind was offshore so as the strip is perpendicular to the beach the final approach is from the sea when a Westerly is blowing which it was. There was a bit of traffic around so I made 10 then 3 mile, joining and downwind calls for 23 and less than a minute later another aircraft made a down wind call without any previous calls for the same runway but in fact he was upwind for 05 and I could see him at 1000 feet directly opposite me. I called him and told him his mistake & also that he was going upwind & there was a conflict. Not only that, the wind was a good 15knots. I got a "Ehr Umm Shi" before he released the PTT and then a couple of minutes later a joining crosswind for 23 call. On the ground he made a sort of mumbling apology. I said didn't you see the windsock & hear my call to which he nodded & he said he genuinely thought it was from 05. No explanation though as to why he was on a conflicting trajectory. Eyes and ears matter.

[Old Koreelah]

1 hour ago, kgwilson said:

About 30 years ago in NZ I was landing at Pauanui airpark…

Thanks for the post, Kevin.

Being a Geography tragic I always look up the spot on Google Earth. Looks like a nice place.

[Thruster88]

There is definitely some latency with Electronic Flight Bag EFB traffic. This can be seen when an aircraft is carrying more than one device, often the aircraft will show multiple positions sometimes miles apart. Understandable because this system relies on the device having mobile coverage, not really ideal.  

 

The way forward is ADS-B.  A full on transponder or an EC device like the SkyEcho2. This system works aircraft to aircraft without the need for any third party system. It works out the back o Bourke with no radar or mobile coverage. 

 

The SkyEcho2 connects via bluetooth to display traffic on an EFB app. Like covid vaccination the more pilots that get onboard the better it will be for all. 900 bucks for SkyEcho2,  how much is a life worth?

[Thruster88]

The two aircraft involved in this fatal mid air at Mangalore were ADS-B equipped, until the final report is published we won't know if they had ADS-B in, (traffic on a screen) in each aircraft. They were in radio contact.

 

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2020/aair/ao-2020-012/

[kgwilson]

17 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

Thanks for the post, Kevin.

Being a Geography tragic I always look up the spot on Google Earth. Looks like a nice place.

I haven't been there for at least 25 years. It was about 40 minutes in the Archer from Hamilton Aerodrome & the wife & I would go over for a swim and lunch at the Pauanui club at the Western end of the strip by the golf course, I just looked on Google Earth & could not believe how big the place is now. Another favourite lunch & swim spot was a bit further North at Whitianga. There was another strip only about 15km north of there with a beautiful beach but I can't remember its name now. Our club used to own a lodge built by club members on Great Barrier Island near the Airport at Claris. I just had a look and the runway is now sealed. We spent plenty of weekends at the lodge. Awesome fishing & real down to earth people. We'd get a rickety bus over to Tryphena & go to one of the fantastic restaurants where after the meal the owners would come over and sit at the table with you and share stories and plenty of alcohol. I bet that's all gone now too.

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, Thruster88 said:

There is definitely some latency with Electronic Flight Bag EFB traffic. This can be seen when an aircraft is carrying more than one device, often the aircraft will show multiple positions sometimes miles apart. Understandable because this system relies on the device having mobile coverage, not really ideal.  

 

The way forward is ADS-B.  A full on transponder or an EC device like the SkyEcho2. This system works aircraft to aircraft without the need for any third party system. It works out the back o Bourke with no radar or mobile coverage. 

 

The SkyEcho2 connects via bluetooth to display traffic on an EFB app. Like covid vaccination the more pilots that get onboard the better it will be for all. 900 bucks for SkyEcho2,  how much is a life worth?

Yes, often I see a (light blue) OzRwys Traffic symbol on top of the (dark blue) ADSB derived one.  (Multiple devices in one aircraft.) And yes, sometimes they drift apart because of the latency you'd expect with EFB traffic - given all the cellular routing involved in that method. That said, I'm surprised there's not more of a shift, more often. Anyway, I'm sure that there's no significant problem with the ADSB position displays. I conclude that both from experience (works for me) and from deduction (the whole thing wouldn't make sense otherwise).

 

Actually, I once suggested to OzRwys that it might be better to distinguish the two symbol types with different colours, not just different shades (for just the above reasons).  But they reckoned that the shades of blue were distinct enough and that, well, traffic is traffic and the two kinds ought not display too differently.

 

By the way, you can get ADSB-IN on your EFB for a lot less than the $900 for an IN/OUT SkyEcho2.

The uAvionix Ping (IN only) is around $300.     https://www.ozrunways.com/store/adsb/ping.jsp

Edited August 27, 2021 by Garfly

[Old Koreelah]

5 minutes ago, Garfly said:

…By the way, you can get ADSB-IN on your EFB for a lot less than the $900 for an IN/OUT SkyEcho2.

The uAvionix Ping (IN only) is around $300.     https://www.ozrunways.com/store/adsb/ping.jsp

Anyone heard from Air Services lately?

[kgwilson]

Yes got an email on 27/8 regarding trial of class E at 5500 feet at Uluru which they still insist on calling Ayers Rock being extended to 1 December due to Covid. Nothing on lowering of Class E on the East Coast since April. They seem to be  shell shocked at the number of negative submissions to their poorly planned proposal especially when they cannot find a single shred of evidence to support their claims. Maybe they were taking a leaf out of Donald Trumps book & like his efforts everything is collapsing around them.

[kgwilson]

14 hours ago, Garfly said:

By the way, you can get ADSB-IN on your EFB for a lot less than the $900 for an IN/OUT SkyEcho2.

The uAvionix Ping (IN only) is around $300.     https://www.ozrunways.com/store/adsb/ping.jsp

OK if you want to remain invisible. Not so good if all the traffic has these and none have ADSB out.

[Garfly]

 

I agree, but I suppose half-a-loaf of situational awareness is better than none.   ;- )

It takes two to tangle, so being seen can be just as good as seeing.

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 27/08/2021 at 10:22 AM, Garfly said:

Generally, at uncontrolled airports, it's all too obvious that way too much of a pilot's attention gets soaked up with (mostly) baseless separation anxiety. Meanwhile, the merest glance at a functioning traffic alert screen can show there's no conflict to worry about.

 

As we've come to learn from playing around with EFB traffic, targets display their vertical distance from you as, plus or minus, hundreds of feet.  So a nearby Qantas target at +350 will probably not be a worry (Flight Levels can also be filtered) but, on the other hand, that converging Q-Link showing -009, reducing, could be a biggie. Mind you, if you have ADSB-OUT, that departing RPT (assuming radio probs) should already be alerted to your presence (esp. with newer generation TCAS/fish-finder gear) 

 

Anyway, any close, converging target with two leading zeros, for me, means  "Oh-oh ..." 

 

Obviously, if we're in the circuit together, even three zeros is just fine ( Oooh ...) just as long as all the ducks are otherwise lined up as they should be.

 

It can be instructive to listen in on a handheld at a busy airfield whilst watching the action on an iPad. Nowadays, with EFB traffic plus ADSB-IN, you sometimes get to see, as well as hear, all the players involved. In such a situation you can ache to intervene (but don't dare) in some long and complicated back and forth between aircraft who are - all too plainly to you -  long ago and far away vis-a-vis each other.

 

So when most of us finally come to accept this new tool and learn to apply it in our sector, it's not only the occasional, if disastrous, mid-air we'd avert but on each and every flight we can wander the skies a bit more relaxed, or at least, be freed up to worry more about aviating and less about communicating.

 

Or ... would we prefer Airservices Australia's big and brilliant Class E solution to the problem? 

 

Yes, the sky really is falling in!!!

 

 

 

 

 

I don’t understand how you can be sure that all the traffic will turn up on your iPad. I thought OzRunways just reported OzRunways planes and vice versa for the other mob? I have a transponder but don’t understand them. 

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 27/08/2021 at 9:10 AM, kgwilson said:

A few years ago coming back to my home aerodrome I made a 10 mile inbound, then an overhead joining call & heard nothing else. If there is no-one else around that's my last call. I like fairly tight circuits & turn base at about 1000 fpm down. Then I spotted a C172 on final in front of me. I made a call & went full power but forgot to push carb heat off & for a second or 2 was a bit confused at the lack of power. That sorted I watched the landing and turnaround & then he stopped half way along the runway. I made a call on every leg and eventually asked what the !*!* he was doing as I had to go around again.

 

Later at the clubhouse after an initial terse chat I found out he heard nothing and made inbound and downwind calls & his other radio was on area frequency. After testing the radio on CTAF we found it wasn't working at all. He knew radio 2 was working at least receiving as he'd heard other broadcasts. A simple solution would have been to have both radios on CTAF once in the 10 mile radius area. Also testing both radios would have been a good idea. That said I have had radio failures so there is no silver bullet. Keeping a good lookout especially in the circuit is essential and only supplemented with radios and ADSB.

I’m at a controlled aerodrome ATM. When I’m not, I will need to add “radio check” to my checklist. If truckies can do it then I can too. My bet is that radio check is not on everybody’s list. 

[Garfly]

18 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

I don’t understand how you can be sure that all the traffic will turn up on your iPad. I thought OzRunways just reported OzRunways planes and vice versa for the other mob? I have a transponder but don’t understand them. 

No sane pilot is sure that all traffic will turn up on his or her iPad. (Even in the USA where ADSB is almost universal in GA nowadays.)  Similarly, no sane person is sure that they can see all threat aircraft in the circuit - or elsewhere - even if they're talking to each other.  (See video.)

 

Which is why many on this thread have been repeating that we're wise to be using all available tools. 

 

And we're not talking (much) about OzRWYs traffic here, we're talking ADSB IN/OUT. And in particular the affordable - and officially sanctioned - variants which are more appropriate for the recreational sector.  Actually I think there is only one "conspicuity device" fully approved at present, in that role, and that is the SkyEcho2.  Anyway, there are lots of threads on here about it, if you're interested.

[Thruster88]

1 hour ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

 I have a transponder but don’t understand them. 

The main thing to understand with a transponder is always have it turned on with 1200 selected if VFR and ALT selected when airborne. It is a legal requirement if installed. 

 

The advantage of doing this is you will be seen by any other aircraft with a traffic system or for larger aircraft it will trigger the TCAS, traffic collision avoidance system if there is a conflict. ATC may also give you as traffic if in radar coverage. 

 

Unfortunately a SkyEcho2 cannot see older mode C transponders but these will at least trigger TCAS and be seen by ATC radar. 

 

Here is an example.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2021/aair/ao-2021-023/

[Garfly]

2 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

 

Unfortunately a SkyEcho2 cannot see older mode C transponders but these will at least trigger TCAS and be seen by ATC radar. 

 

Yes, only newer transponders put out an ADSB signal but, as I understand it, all IFR equipped aircraft in Oz must now be ADSB-OUT equipped. Which means most commercial aircraft out there.  So an SE2 (SkyEcho2) should make you conspicuous to all nearby RPTs, charters, Rescue choppers, Air Ambulances etc. (and vice-versa); your precise position and altitude should show up (as a target relative to themselves) on their ADSB-IN display (and could trigger a TCAS alert on more modern units). 

 

I say 'should' because I'd still like to have it confirmed just how many RPTs et al,  are now functionally equipped with ADSB-IN displays.

 

Anyway, more and more RAAus/GA craft are going the same way, but I reckon it's worth the price of admission, alone, just to pose less of a threat to all commercial ops., in case they, or I, slip-up with our other means of self-separation, especially in busy terminal areas.

 

Plus, I'd like to contribute to giving Airservices Australia some more good reasons NOT to proceed with their plan to bring Class E down on our heads.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Garfly

[BirdDog]

I have actually spent a bit of time looking into this sort of thing. I actually also recently invested in a new Garmin device that connects to my G3X to get traffic on my glass. 
 

I agree with others, not all traffic turn up on screens.   I am fortunate to live overlooking the AD and I’ve sat here many days with my ipad and my radio and watched many aircraft fly around, in and out, with no radio calls, and certainly nothing on OzRunways. 

It’s a daily occurrence here. MANY movements. No radio, and not showing up on anything.  
 

I have personally had a number of occasions when I have been in the air (making radio calls etc) only to find an aircraft landing as I am turning onto the taxi, or flying  over me on Midfield Crosswind as I am landing and I didn’t even know he was there. (Not the same aircraft)

 

I am surprised there aren’t more incidents to be honest. 

[walrus]

Why don’t people have radio and perhaps transponder? Are they the same idiots who refuse Covid vaccination because…..freedom?

 

At least can the non radio crowd by relegated to 500 ft circuit height…..or could they be required to have a sky echo in operation in the vicinity of airstrips so that we have some chance of alerted see and avoid?