Flying during Lockdown

[SGM]

As per person who started the thread - let's call it to a close here - happy fathers day and safe aviating.

[skippydiesel]

46 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

No, you are just another politician in respect to the covid debate. When it is over I would still like to meet you so no hard feelings. I am taking care to minimize contact with others but life goes on. Food crops need the be looked after. We can't all be hermits.  

I seek not election, position of authority or consensus - merely presenting a point of view for health vigorous debate,  in the trying times. So no offence taken or intended and would be happy to meet with any of my Forum friends.

[turboplanner]

Following a couple of odd comments earlier this week that seemed to be at odds with the current Melbourne Lockdown and our strictest so far, I thought I'd check out what was alleged to be happening myself and had a few quick looks during the school day on Flightaware.

 

It wasn't a good start; someone I knew, a Grade A moron who was prone to smacking cops and just did what he wanted to do had taken off from Moorabbin and flew around for a while, and there were about four or five aircraft flying under exemptions which allow them to Graduate from their course, but no one else - zero, except for some commercial flights.

[jackc]

2 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

 

What hostility? - its called debating.

 

Hopefully we are all being polite, taking a position and strongly arguing our point. How boring would be the World without difference.

Debating on line is totally different to debating in person……

[BirdDog]

4 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Thanks BD - Many of the higher econamy, island states, have managed at least once, to achieve Zero  Community Transmission.

 

I have never suggested that Australia can remain CV free indefinitely, or even that this is practical objective. All I have suggested is that Zero Community Transmission is achievable & desirable, in the short term, while we develop a suitable plan (herd immunity being a significant part) and systems for on going management/minimisation of CV impact on society and the econamy.

 

As for your flying activities & your shopping (why not get delivered/click & collect?) - sure you as an individual have probably acted responsibly, as far as inter person contact is concerned. BUT successful  quarantine, does not allow for individual determination/interpretation/action, its an all in/out situation (no grey area). You have subverted the concept, even if you have acted within the wholly inexplicable NSW Gov rules.

 

Alarmist?? - I have some previous exposure to quarantine environments, nasty disseises - I can tell you, what Gladys has been doing, is nothing like what I understand a successful quarantine would require - not even close. This is not alarmist it is frustration with the political subversion of a well understood , tried & true concept,  that has been around for hundreds of years. 

 

My position is simple ; You (we) either do quarantine as it should be done or forget it. Where there is the threat of highly infectious disease, there is no such thing as success partial quarantine.

while I agree with some of your comments, I will say that there’s no way we will get anything like heard immunity.  Take a look at the likes of Israel. They are heavily vaccinated and going through more pain. The whole idea that these vaccines are a silver bullet is a farce, and our dumb governments just give people hope that “vaccines are our way out of this” 

 

Another comedy routine.
 

I am in no way anti vaccine. I am fully vaccinated (except for Covid) and the data I have read up re these vaccines (from the manufacturer themselves) is plain scary.   You should look into  it. Not media data.  Not Facebook data. Go to the sources. Trawl through their data and have a read. You will be shocked. I will give you one example. Pfizer themselves give little affect for their vaccine in people over 70. Yep. Read that again. 
 

Anyways. One thing is for sure. History will either see us look back and say we did the right thing based on science or the wrong thing based on Money. I have my suspicions which one it will be. Sadly. 

 

 

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, BirdDog said:

 

I am in no way anti vaccine. I am fully vaccinated (except for Covid) and the data I have read up re these vaccines (from the manufacturer themselves) is plain scary.   You should look into  it. Not media data.  Not Facebook data. Go to the sources. Trawl through their data and have a read. You will be shocked. I will give you one example. Pfizer themselves give little affect for their vaccine in people over 70. Yep. Read that again. 

Yep, I read that again and was just as skeptical as I was the first time.  ;- )

 

Please give precise references for these assertions BD.  And links to your personal research. That's crucial in this age of misinformation. We often see "Look it up yourself, this is what I found and it was plain scary" without actual references. In the past, such tactics have been known to rely on people not bothering to 'trawl through the data' and taking their trusted source at face value.

For example, in which Pfizer document that you, yourself, found is the information that's given in this BBC report contradicted, withdrawn and/or repudiated?

 

Covid vaccine: Pfizer says '94% effective in over-65s'

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54986208

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by Garfly

[BirdDog]

Oh man. I ended up in a rabbit hole of CDC and Pfizer websites so I can’t tell you the exact link but I took a screen shots of the document. See attached. I will dig and see if I can find the exact site. 
 

The problem is main stream media will not fact check stuff.  I have a very good friend who is involved in one of the biggest. They just run stuff. If another network runs it, so will they.  If it’s a lie, they will simply repeat it. Sad. 

[skippydiesel]

7 minutes ago, BirdDog said:

Oh man. I ended up in a rabbit hole of CDC and Pfizer websites so I can’t tell you the exact link but I took a screen shots of the document. See attached. I will dig and see if I can find the exact site. 
 

The problem is main stream media will not fact check stuff.  I have a very good friend who is involved in one of the biggest. They just run stuff. If another network runs it, so will they.  If it’s a lie, they will simply repeat it. Sad. 

 

Yep! it makes it hard for us, the average Joe, to make sense of it all. For my part I try hard to listen (dont read as much as I used to) - if the person appears to be qualified (as in recognised in "the field") - doesnt use too much jargon and makes sense (logical consistent argument/presentation) I tend to believe him/her. What more can I do?

[aro]

25 minutes ago, BirdDog said:

Oh man. I ended up in a rabbit hole of CDC and Pfizer websites so I can’t tell you the exact link but I took a screen shots of the document. See attached. I will dig and see if I can find the exact site. 

You sure did! A search turns up that document on various anti-vax websites. At best it seems to be quoting from very early studies on the vaccine, before the large scale trials.

 

You can look at the vaxed vs unvaxed results in many different countries to see that the vaccines make an amazing difference. Even in Australia, you can compare NSW this year to Victoria last year. Last year we had hundreds of elderly people dying. This year, most elderly are vaccinated and the number of deaths is greatly reduced compared to last year. A larger percentage of people being hospitalized and dying are young, simply because the vaccinated elderly are not.

 

The vaccination seems to reduce your risk approximately equivalent to being 30 years younger, i.e. a vaccinated 80 year old has about the same risk as an unvaccinated 50 year old, a vaccinated 50 year old has about the same risk as an unvaccinated 20 year old. The risk goes up very steeply with age.

 

If you are older and unvaccinated you are still at great risk - probably greater than ever due to the infectiousness of Delta.

[octave]

For those who want the long detailed answer  Effectiveness of Covid-19 Vaccines against the B.1.617.2 (Delta) Variant from the new England Journal of Medicine.      Obviously this is a long involved article.    It does pay to follow simple figures like how many of those in ICU or have died are unvaccinated or vaccinated.   

 

Here is a simple depiction with reference to the situation in the US.

 

[jackc]

9 minutes ago, octave said:

For those who want the long detailed answer  Effectiveness of Covid-19 Vaccines against the B.1.617.2 (Delta) Variant from the new England Journal of Medicine.      Obviously this is a long involved article.    It does pay to follow simple figures like how many of those in ICU or have died are unvaccinated or vaccinated.   

 

Here is a simple depiction with reference to the situation in the US.

 

 

The NEJM article is a good read,  there are many others also written in the Covid section of the journal…..

[octave]

1 minute ago, jackc said:

 

The NEJM article is a good read,  there are many others also written in the Covid section of the journal…..

 

Yep I do attempt to read all of them.

[aro]

9 minutes ago, jackc said:

The NEJM article is a good read,  there are many others also written in the Covid section of the journal

It's important to note that the study is on effectiveness against symptomatic disease. The vaccines are much better at protecting against severe disease and death.

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, BirdDog said:

Oh man. I ended up in a rabbit hole of CDC and Pfizer websites so I can’t tell you the exact link but I took a screen shots of the document. See attached. I will dig and see if I can find the exact site. 
 

The problem is main stream media will not fact check stuff.  I have a very good friend who is involved in one of the biggest. They just run stuff. If another network runs it, so will they.  If it’s a lie, they will simply repeat it. Sad. 

 

Well if you do manage to find that Pfizer document in which they admit that there's "little affect for their vaccine in people over 70"  not only me, but the whole world will be very interested to see it.

 

And you have a friend who works with one of the biggest Media Outlets and he/she bemoans its lack of fact checking:  "If it's a lie they will just print it. Sad."  Your friend should quit that job and join the ABC who, with RMIT, have an entire section devoted to Fact Checking.

That should put a smile back on their dial.  😉

 

https://www.rmit.edu.au/news/all-news/2020/march/corona-check-from-abc-fact-check

 

Fact-checking during the pandemic

With the world in the grip of an unprecedented health crisis, RMIT ABC Fact Check is launching CoronaCheck to ensure that the information we share is accurate and fact-based.

Fake news and misinformation are spreading as fast and as far as the coronavirus itself, infecting our newsfeeds and timelines at this challenging time.

 

A sample of their work:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-18/coronacheck-melbourne-anti-vaccine-boris-johnson-eriksen/100215852

 

There is a lot of disinformation out there, taking folks for fools. And it is, indeed, SAD!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by Garfly

[jackc]

1 minute ago, aro said:

It's important to note that the study is on effectiveness against symptomatic disease. The vaccines are much better at protecting against severe disease and death.

Don’t read one study alone, there are many to give an overall picture of the virus, most Covid articles are a free read. Some are for subscribers only.

[Garfly]

And while the despicable misinformation game plays on, guess who's left to clean up the mess: 

 

 

 

https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/anti-vaxx-groups-target-gps-as-efforts-to-derail-r

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by Garfly

[walrus]

I used to shake my head when reading about middle ages history and the belief in witchcraft……..until Covid came along and with it thousands of publications containing utter BS about vaccines in general and Covid19 in particular.

 

‘’Please get vaccinated ASAP.

[aro]

9 minutes ago, jackc said:

Don’t read one study alone

Don't worry, I have read plenty of studies. But what is also useful is hearing interpretations by experts, I recommend:

• Andy Slavitt - Former Biden White House Sr Advisor for COVID Response
• Dena Grayson - Ebola expert, has been commenting on COVID since the beginning. Said that COVID was scarier than Ebola back before we had even heard of it, which proved prescient to say the least.
• Peter Doherty - Australian Nobel Prize winning Immunologist
• Peter Collignon - Infectious Diseases Physician at the ANU. Often wrong in his opinions (seems a little too keen to have more cases), but posts useful links.

You can hear from them all directly on Twitter. Very up to date information, and reliable sources.

[onetrack]

The CDC is an authority with impeccable information. They are in charge of Americas disease control.  The first link below is an up-to-date CDC report on the effectiveness of the COVID-19 vaccines on persons aged 65-74.

 

We have only one thing to be concerned about - the vaccines appear to lose a degree of effectiveness over a period of several months post-vaccination - which may mean another booster shot will be needed.

 

But even despite that falling-away of effectiveness, the vaccine is still quite effective, and it will still protect you far better than any other anti-vaxx, non-scientific, BS approach - such as Ivermectin, et al.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e3.htm

 

https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/covid-19-vaccines-work-but-their-efficacy-fades-st

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by onetrack

[turboplanner]

6 hours ago, onetrack said:

We have only one thing to be concerned about - the vaccines appear to lose a degree of effectiveness over a period of several months post-vaccination - which may mean another booster shot will be needed.

 

Australia has already started to order the booster shot programme (see my post on the Covid thread which shows suppliers and numbers.)

Edited September 5, 2021 by turboplanner

[Thruster88]

Wrong thread

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by Thruster88

[turboplanner]

50 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

Wrong thread

 

This was the Flying during Lockdown thread, but smothered by "OO, look over there, there's a squirrel"

[Flightrite]

18 hours ago, jackc said:

You know, IF everyone on this forum got to personally  meet each other at a forum meeting, I am damn sure that the hostility would not be the same at that meeting?

Primarily, we are human beings with a big interest in Aviation.

Someone here takes a short fly in his plane, do a few orbits and land…..and he gets piled on with a barrage of surface to air missiles. 

So IF we all stop playing Covid Policeman…….that would be a good thing 🙂

Jackc some just get off on playing the man, they hate the fact that some don't subscribe to their fear & it shows in their repeated replies that we must obey the lying lunatics in charge to keep them safe:-) I have flown & will continue to do so it's only the WX that has stopped me!

If there's one thing that has come out of this daily BS and that is its entertaining:-)

Edited September 5, 2021 by Flightrite

[aro]

14 minutes ago, Flightrite said:

they hate the fact that some don't subscribe to their fear

I'm double vaccinated so not too worried about myself. It's not fear, it's consideration for other people in society who will be affected:

• doctors and nurses who will be slammed by the case load, many ending up with PTSD
• children who can't get vaccinated yet
• people who need the ICU in normal times - heart attacks, stroke, cancer patients, accident victims, surgery patients

These are the reasons I do whatever I can to avoid being part of the spread. Maybe you don't give a f* about any of these people, but that's not bravery, and doing what you can to help the situation is not fear.

[jackc]

30 minutes ago, Flightrite said:

Jackc some just get off on playing the man, they hate the fact that some don't subscribe to their fear & it shows in their repeated replies that we must obey the lying lunatics in charge to keep them safe:-) I have flown & will continue to do so it's only the WX that has stopped me!

If there's one thing that has come out of this daily BS and that is its entertaining:-)

For me,  I am happy as a cat with 10 tails, I have trip to make tomorrow to buy another aircraft, deal 95% done. Hope its got some wings on it!

BIG bonus is……I don’t have to run the wrath of the COVID Policemen to go look at it and get it home……It’s a bonus living in Qld.:-)