Landing without permission

[SSCBD]

 

What problems can you get in these days being sooo PC  with  landing a RAA or single engine VH on an airstrip where permission is required.

For example -  your honour - flying along happily for about 2 hours and my passenger had the urge.  We had about another 45 mins to fly but underneath was a lovely looking grass strip and when I  looked it up it was permission required.

It was an uncertified airfield called Ashford Cawdor YASF - it's 1000 metres long but we were not in a position to call the owner.

Don't get me wrong I have landed many many times on strips in the back blocks without asking permission for natures calls without any problems.

What can they really do about it if you had a reasonable excuse to land.

anyone's thoughts

[turboplanner]

1 minute ago, SSCBD said:

What problems can you get in these days being sooo PC  with  landing a RAA or single engine VH on an airstrip where permission is required.

 

For example -  your honour - flying along happily for about 2 hours and my passenger had the urge.  We had about another 45 mins to fly but underneath was a lovely looking grass strip and when I  looked it up it was permission required.

 

It was an uncertified airfield called Ashford Cawdor YASF - it's 1000 metres long but we were not in a position to call the owner.

 

Don't get me wrong I have landed many many times on strips in the back blocks without asking permission for natures calls without any problems.

 

What can they really do about it if you had a reasonable excuse to land.

 

anyone's thoughts

 

I think there's a regulation with a blanket requirement; can't remember where it is, but if you get into trouble with unexpected weather and call any of the Centres, don't expect helpful advice, just jargon which doesn't help you when the airfield is going to be your only choice. Weather is covered by declaring an emergency, but I don't thing "I'm bursting" cuts it, although it should.

[KRviator]

In NSW, if it's PPR, you know it's PPR and still land anyway, you can be detained under s.100 if the Law Enforcement Powers & Responsibilities Act (otherwise known as a "Citizens arrest") and turned over to the Rozzers. IF you resist such an arrest, you can legitimately be found to have resisted arrest, or guilty of common assault and in even more strife - remember, if they are lawfully arresting you for trespassing, it is a lawful arrest, (so long as they don't assault you, delay delivering you to the Rozzers, etc)

In a genuine emergency, the owner would be hard-pressed to make that stick, but needing to take a wizz because you didn't plan your stops well enough, or had too much to drink before takeoff is not really an emergency.

 

In NSW, you would be in breach of s.4 of the Inclosed Lands Act 1901, and possibly also S.4B being aggravated unlawful entry on inclosed lands if it could be argued the landing of a plane without permission presented a serious risk to the safety of those on that land, such as mowing, quad bike riding, etc - and remember, if you land, the onus is on you to prove you are allowed to be there, not the other way around.

Edited September 2, 2021 by KRviator

[Marty_d]

Precautionary landing due to the engine sounding a little rough?  An intermittent problem that thankfully cleared up on a ground run (after you'd emptied your bladder).

[IBob]

C'mon guys: plastic bottles with large diameter tops that nevertheless seal tight when the cap is on are available in any gas station. Just tip out the lurid chemical that some eejits mistake for 'drink'  and stow within arm's reach.........)

[pmccarthy]

29 minutes ago, IBob said:

C'mon guys: plastic bottles with large diameter tops that nevertheless seal tight when the cap is on are available in any gas station. Just tip out the lurid chemical that some eejits mistake for 'drink'  and stow within arm's reach.........)

I had only a narrow necked Coke bottle once and a high-flow situation which caused a bit of overspray. My wife was quite polite and understanding.

[SSCBD]

2 hours ago, IBob said:

C'mon guys: plastic bottles with large diameter tops that nevertheless seal tight when the cap is on are available in any gas station. Just tip out the lurid chemical that some eejits mistake for 'drink'  and stow within arm's reach.........)

The pax was female - been there done that with plastic bottles.

who else has landed without permission?

[Bruce Tuncks]

I like marty's idea. But I reckon you should have tried contact by radio first ( area frequency and unicom frequency) and offer the owner money if he turns up.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Glider pilots outland all the time, well we used to, and I am quite sure that there was nothing illegal in this. Personally, I never met an unfriendly guy. Some unfriendly dogs,but not so often that I felt the need to take dog biscuits for them.

One mate landed on a runway which had a windsock etc but was real small. The owner turned out to be a delighted aeromodeller.

[pmccarthy]

Apparently if you have doped fabric, horses and cattle will chew on your control surfaces.

[skippydiesel]

I have always understood that , with the exception of an emergency, landing on private property, without permission, is an offence in law.

 

I have no idea how glider/balloon pilots seem to get away with their frequent unplanned (location) landings - I suspect it is completely at the discretion of the landholder whether charges are brought.

 

I have never "taken" to the idea of urinating into a bottle while conventionally (not a toilet) seated, especially in the semi reclining position of many sport aircraft - seems to be fraught with potential for spillage.

 

I usually plan my trips in 2-3 hr stages, to allow for bladder & muscular relief - so the desperate search for a convenient landing ground has never eventuated..

[Marty_d]

1 hour ago, pmccarthy said:

Apparently if you have doped fabric, horses and cattle will chew on your control surfaces.

If you have dope, and land in Nimbin, humans will chew your ear until you share.

[walrus]

As far as I know, common law has no offence of ‘being on private property “. The offence of trespass only exists when you have been told to leave and don’t. That is why signs say “trespassers prosecuted” not “people on my land will be prosecuted”.  PPR is an instruction to ask for permission- you can’t be trespassing if you haven’t asked. You are only trespassing after you have been told to piss off and you refuse without excuse.

 

As for landing, there is an obvious defence of necessity and if your motor is stuffed you can’t immediately leave can you? Furthermore, I’d be interested to see the text of any law repealing the law of gravity - banning the landing of an aircraft anywhere.

 

Wilful damage, negligence, carriage of firearms, etc. are a different matter.

Edited September 2, 2021 by walrus

[Tasmag]

16 minutes ago, walrus said:

As far as I know, common law has no offence of ‘being on private property “. The offence of trespass only exists when you have been told to leave and don’t. That is why signs say “trespassers prosecuted” not “people on my land will be prosecuted”.  PPR is an instruction to ask for permission- you can’t be trespassing if you haven’t asked. You are only trespassing after you have been told to piss off and you refuse without excuse.

 

As for landing, there is an obvious defence of necessity and if your motor is stuffed you can’t immediately leave can you? Furthermore, I’d be interested to see the text of any law repealing the law of gravity - banning the landing of an aircraft anywhere.

 

Wilful damage, negligence, carriage of firearms, etc. are a different matter.

Not quite correct, trespass is trespass, the power of arrest is only available if the person refuses to leave (Not the same in all states though). You can be charged with trespass by summons even if you leave when asked. ( pretty confident that is Australia wide)

[walrus]

Tasman, if the sign says “no entry” I’m sure you are right. But our ERSA doesn’t say ‘’no entry” , it says PPR.

[aro]

PPR is pretty explicitly saying that permission is denied unless it has been specifically granted.

 

But why do pilots think they should be able to land at a private airfield without permission? Would you walk down a random person's driveway into their backyard? It's the same thing. It's not the right thing to do - even if you are just looking for somewhere to go.

[KRviator]

7 hours ago, walrus said:

As far as I know, common law has no offence of ‘being on private property “. The offence of trespass only exists when you have been told to leave and don’t. That is why signs say “trespassers prosecuted” not “people on my land will be prosecuted”.  PPR is an instruction to ask for permission- you can’t be trespassing if you haven’t asked. You are only trespassing after you have been told to piss off and you refuse without excuse.

 

As for landing, there is an obvious defence of necessity and if your motor is stuffed you can’t immediately leave can you?

It's my understanding you're correct about Tresspass, yes, and you would be guilty of that if you remained after being asked to leave, however, what is commonly thought of as Tresspass (Going onto someone's property without being asked) is covered in a different, quite old, law in NSW - where you are still in violation of the Inclosed Lands Protection Act.

If it is marked in the ERSA as PPR (defined in ERSA GEN 2.2-48 as "Prior Permission Required"), you would be extremely hard pressed to demonstrate you are not in violation of the ILPA unless in a genuine emergency. And the thing to consider, you can still be arrested for it (If the landowner want's to be a right prick and knows his stuff), you will just be found "Not Guilty" if it goes to court. But you'll still end up in the custody of the Rozzers for the afternoon, make statements, have to leave your plane behind while all this happens, etc...

 

The other thing to consider is the landowner may have an obligation under some agreement with Council or a local NIMBY to only use the airfield for his personal use, for for X number of movements a year. If some random plane just lobs in, you could be exposing the landowner to grief arguing against said NIMBY, like Ol' mate up Cairns way with his Spit, can only fly it between certain hours, certain days of the year, etc. PPR is not a request that you seek permission, it's a requirement that you obtain permission before operating there.

 

Quote

Inclosed lands means—

(a)  prescribed premises, or

(b)  any land, either public or private, inclosed or surrounded by any fence, wall or other erection, or partly by a fence, wall or other erection and partly by a canal or by some natural feature such as a river or cliff by which its boundaries may be known or recognised, including the whole or part of any building or structure and any land occupied or used in connection with the whole or part of any building or structure.

 

4   Unlawful entry on inclosed lands

(1)  Any person who, without lawful excuse (proof of which lies on the person), enters into inclosed lands without the consent of the owner, occupier or person apparently in charge of those lands, or who remains on those lands after being requested by the owner, occupier or person apparently in charge of those lands to leave those lands, is liable to a penalty not exceeding—

(a)  10 penalty units in the case of prescribed premises, or

(b)  5 penalty units in any other case.

(1A)  A drover or person in charge of stock being driven on a road lawfully inclosed within the lands of any person has a lawful excuse for entering those lands for the purpose of preventing the stock from straying, or regaining control of stock that have strayed, from that road.

(2)  Where a road is lawfully inclosed with the lands of any person, and such road is not clearly defined but there is a reasonably defined track commonly used by persons passing through such lands, the centre of such track shall, for the purposes of this Act, be deemed to be the centre of the road.

(3)  Where a road is lawfully inclosed with the lands of any person and such road is not clearly defined and there is no reasonably defined track through such lands a person passing through such inclosed lands shall not be guilty of an offence unless it is shown that the route taken by such person in so passing was, having regard to the circumstances, unreasonable.

(4)  In this section, stock includes horses, cattle, sheep, goats, pigs and camels.

 

[walrus]

ARO, I think we can agree that emergency use is OK. As for the meaning of PPR, by definition, there is no way of knowing if you will be granted permission or not. My understanding of PPR is that it’s a very very good idea to check with a strip owner regarding potential hazards. 

 

As for walking down driveways, I once had reason to discuss this with detectives. They told me that all criminals have a string of excuses about why they are on your land - they smelt smoke, heard someone calling for help, etc., etc.

[turboplanner]

7 minutes ago, KRviator said:

It's my understanding you're correct about Tresspass, yes, and you would be guilty of that if you remained after being asked to leave, however, what is commonly thought of as Tresspass (Going onto someone's property without being asked) is covered in a different, quite old, law in NSW - where you are still in violation of the Inclosed Lands Protection Act.

If it is marked in the ERSA as PPR (defined in ERSA GEN 2.2-48 as "Prior Permission Required"), you would be extremely hard pressed to demonstrate you are not in violation of the ILPA unless in a genuine emergency. And the thing to consider, you can still be arrested for it (If the landowner want's to be a right prick and knows his stuff), you will just be found "Not Guilty" if it goes to court. But you'll still end up in the custody of the Rozzers for the afternoon, make statements, have to leave your plane behind while all this happens, etc...

 

The other thing to consider is the landowner may have an obligation under some agreement with Council or a local NIMBY to only use the airfield for his personal use, for for X number of movements a year. If some random plane just lobs in, you could be exposing the landowner to grief arguing against said NIMBY, like Ol' mate up Cairns way with his Spit, can only fly it between certain hours, certain days of the year, etc. PPR is not a request that you seek permission, it's a requirement that you obtain permission before operating there.

 

 

It's the CASA reg you need to look for.

[KRviator]

4 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

It's the CASA reg you need to look for.

Why would you want to look for a CAsA rule? CAsA has nothing to do with whether you're on someone's airfield without permission.

[turboplanner]

1 minute ago, KRviator said:

Why would you want to look for a CAsA rule? CAsA has nothing to do with whether you're on someone's airfield without permission.

It has a lot to do with your fainancial situation though.

[spacesailor]

You mean " if the land owner doen,t sue,  Casa will " .

spacesailor

 

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, spacesailor said:

You mean " if the land owner doen,t sue,  Casa will " .

spacesailor

 

No, I couldn't see too much trouble from a land owner. After all you're landing on what looks like an airstrip [ you usually can't see crab holes or tree limbs, rocks etc in long grass.]

 

However, if you hit one of the logs and the aircraft flipped over and someone was injured, so you decided to sue the farmer because he didn't have white crosses displayed to prevent the reasonably forseeable risk, which you are entitled to do, and my be able to get all the medical and repair costs and your lawyers fees out of him, there is stil this to deal with.

 

CAAP 92-1 (1)  

Paragraph 8.5

"Except in an emergency the consent of the owner/occupier is required before a landing area may be used."

 

Note the words required before - a very definite intent.

 

[skippydiesel]

4 hours ago, KRviator said:

It's my understanding you're correct about Tresspass, yes, and you would be guilty of that if you remained after being asked to leave, however, what is commonly thought of as Tresspass (Going onto someone's property without being asked) is covered in a different, quite old, law in NSW - where you are still in violation of the Inclosed Lands Protection Act.

I

 

All good stuff KR - one the matter of trespass - I like you understand that you may legally enter any property (at least once) - the exceptions are:

 

Properties that are clearly signposted no entry/trespassers prosecuted without land holder/managers permission. Even if so posted entry for legitimate purpose  would be enough to prevent any charge sticking.

As you advised - You may not remain after being asked to leave or denied entry by land holder/manager.

Emergency response/situation, even by a private citizen

Pursuit of your own livestock

Repair/maintenance/erection of shared boundary fence

Follow a creek/river, as long as you do not stray more than one"chain" (cricket pitch) from the bank

 

Then there are a host of "officials" who have the right to wonder over your property without your permission

[Yenn]

I don't think CASA wold prosecute. It is reallynothing to do with them unless you engage in dangerous flying. Airservices control what goes on the charts regarding prior permission.

The prosecution would come from the landowner and the fact that he has an airstrip shows that he has some interest in flying

For him to prosecute would be costly and no doubt the landowner would end up out of pocket, so I reckon it would only happen if he was badly upset by your landing.

My experience is that if you do drop in you will be helped if you need it and otherwise treated cordially.