Landing without permission

[aro]

18 minutes ago, walrus said:

if pilots were dropping out of the sky scaring the horses, wrecking your cornfield or rose garden every day you would have a point.. For most of rural Australia a landing is a red letter day.

In which case you will have no problem getting permission. But PPR means you must get permission. Maybe the strip is soft and unserviceable, maybe it has a fence across it at the moment, maybe there are agreements with the neighbors about the type of aircraft that will use it, maybe visitors are just not welcome today.

 

Talk to a few people with private strips. You will hear of people annoying the neighbors by making multiple low passes practicing a precautionary search, people landing on soft grass strips and making enormous furrows or tearing up newly seeded crops or grass - enough to understand why people make their strip PPR, or more commonly refuse to mark the strip at all.

[walrus]

Good points ARO,  in particular in my opinion iit is bad form to do precautionaries without permission. 

[turboplanner]

I mentioned Biosecurity as a reason permission is required on private land, then realised I was right in the middle of it, and I don't let anyone on the land where production takes place - total separation.

More than 23,0000 beef, dairy and sheep farms in Victoria are now bound by Biosecurity requirements to ensure that microscopic size animal or plant matter can't carry diseases around the country.

 

My property would take a Savannah, but the answer would have to be "No" because an outbreak brought in on the wheels, dropped from spats or under fuse, in dust from the floor or carried by the boots/shoes and clothes could stop me selling sheep.

 

Here's a good explanation of when these changes came in and why and how they are managed.

 

WH01587

Update: September 6, 2021

BIOSECURITY – EXTENSIVE GRAZING

 

Overview

https://www.farmbiosecurity.com.au/essentials-toolkit/people-vehicles-equipment/

(Click on the Tony Cooke YouTube Video for a good short explanation.)

 

I conduct extensive grazing of sheep.

Before I could start, the property fences had to be inspected by an officer of Department of Environment Land and Water to ensure they provided adequate Biosecurity.

 

The property was then given a Property Identification Code (PIC)

 

Every sheep born is required to be fitted with an electronic tag identifying this PIC and its birth year.

 

I had to obtain Accreditation for the required standard of Animal Husbandry and Biosecurity.

Biosecurity was included in LPA Accreditation October 1, 2017.

 

An online declaration form has to be on the Meat & Livestock database for any sheep which leaves the property. The declaration must include any stops and the destination and the identity of the receiver and my Accreditation.

 

It’s normal for the client’s phone to beep with an MLA copy of the transaction, so he can show it to any Livestock Officer or Police Officer on the way home.

 

If I breach Biosecurity regulations, I lose my Accreditation. Without my Accreditation I can’t sell sheep.

 

 

Each PIC must have a formal, documented Biosecurity Plan.

Livestock producers must implement on-farm biosecurity systems.

 

Item 2 of the Plan says:

“Where reasonable and practical, control people, equipment and vehicles entering the property, thus minimising the potential for property contamination and, if possible, keep a record of such movements.”

 

About Farm Biosecurity

https://www.farmbiosecurity.com.au/about/

https://www.integritysystems.com.au/on-farm-assurance/Biosecurity/

 

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by turboplanner

[skippydiesel]

"Item 2 of the Plan says:

“Where reasonable and practical, control people, equipment and vehicles entering the property, thus minimising the potential for property contamination and, if possible, keep a record of such movements.”

 

I support your right to control entry to your property - you do not have to justify this.

 

However if my opinion is being sought:

 

The key words are "Where reasonable and practical" - are you being reasonable in your interpretation and is your interpretation practical ?

 

I would suggest you are being a tad over the top - we are talking about one hypothetical aircraft stopping/landing, for the pilot, who has poorly planed his/her flight, to have a leak - not going to put your biosecurity status at risk.

 

Unless the aircraft/pilot, have come from an area where a ovine and/or zoonotic infection is active and/or some invasive weed species is prevalent and likely to hitch a ride on/in the aircraft - then you might have a problem.

 

In summary: I support your position (even if I think its a bit extreme)

[aro]

10 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Unless the aircraft/pilot, have come from an area where a ovine and/or zoonotic infection is active and/or some invasive weed species is prevalent and likely to hitch a ride on/in the aircraft - then you might have a problem.

How would you know?

[Bruce Tuncks]

We put up signs requiring oh&s plus biosecurity qualifications before entry to our farm. The main reason for this was to make it hard for bureaucrats to wander in and start spending our money and time on useless stuff like permission paperwork.

We saved about $20,000 on our house by building it without all the permissions extortion stuff. We could do this by declaring the building as shearers quarters.

While we would be annoyed at practice low level runs, in no way would we object to a real emergency landing, even if it was because a passenger needed to pee. Actually, we do get some low level stuff when a nearby paddock is aerial-sprayed, and this is very loud, but soon gone. We don't complain.

[turboplanner]

Some people would have noticed that the Biosecurity Plan is based on self-declaration, so there's no point in trying to fool imaginary Inspectors who haven't been doing the rounds for several years. 

There's an outbreak, and a source and the source pays so it's a good idea to, in turn, check incoming contamination.

 

Pretty much the same a public liability and self administering organisations.

[jackc]

This thread is an interesting read……

Me?  IF I have an airstrip (and soon will) ANY aircraft can land on it, IF the PIC determines it’s safe for them and their aircraft. 

Put a phone number on a board at taxiway end and they can call me IF they need fuel, supplies from local shop.  Besides my camera system will alert me on my phone that someone has landed and I will jump in my 4x4 and drive up to the strip, 2km away, see if they need anything.

I have only been pissed off once, when some young people cut my boundary fence to roar around on their quad bikes on my property…….Made them fix the fence and piss off, don’t come back.  All the locals now know the place is bristling with cameras:-)

 

 

[kgwilson]

I have landed in farmers paddocks numerous times during my 20 years hang gliding. Never once asked permission as I couldn't. If the house was near I always went over and knocked on the door. Most of the time there was no-one even at home. When there was someone there they were always happy and no problems etc. Often I got invited for a cup of tea or a beer, invited to use the phone (no mobile in those days), toilet etc. Farming people are among the most hospitable people around.

 

Several times the farmer saw me land & got his 4WD or ute out, came over & transported me & glider to the road. I once landed in a cornfield & flattened a bit of corn. I was very apologetic and asked what the cost of the loss was likely to be. He just shrugged his shoulders & said something like "In the scheme of things f***k all" & helped me pack the glider up.

 

One of the most memorable was looking for a paddock & flying low over a house I noticed a couple on their sun lounger going for it by the pool. They never even noticed me & luckily I landed far enough away for it to remain like that.

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 05/09/2021 at 9:20 AM, walrus said:

By definition, PPR can only apply to marked strips contained in ERSA or suchlike. If it’s an unmarked, undocumented strip or just a paddock then there can be no argument that you didn’t land without permission, unless the law says “you can’t be anywhere without permission” which it doesn’t. It’s a bizarre situation.

 

Furthermore the i closed lands act looks to me as a device to keep drovers out of other peoples properties(an issue during drought) and also out of events and public facilities like hospitals.

 

‘’The fact that something is inclosed begs the question of whether it is legally inclosed as well. There are fences everywhere in the bush for all sorts of reasons, some legal, some not.

 

To put it another way, you would have to be unlucky in the bush to find someone who objected to a request or even a landing after an attempt was made to contact the owner. Most people understand the concept. of “a fair go”.

I can't remember which regulation it is, but it seems that it is legal to land anywhere it is safe to land. So, if you land safely, that was legal. If you land and crash, that was illegal. 😀

[aro]

40 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

I can't remember which regulation it is, but it seems that it is legal to land anywhere it is safe to land.

That doesn't take away the requirement to have the permission of the landowner. It just means you are not breaking aviation regulations.

[facthunter]

I'd be more worried about liability for the owner, if you have it generally available. it's unfortunate but that's the way a lot of things are. Nev

[APenNameAndThatA]

1 hour ago, aro said:

That doesn't take away the requirement to have the permission of the landowner. It just means you are not breaking aviation regulations.

That is true. I should clarify. I was talking about landing where there is no strip at all. 

Edited September 15, 2021 by APenNameAndThatA

[turboplanner]

A lot of people are getting confused over the reasons for this, and why it is a CAAP, not a CAR

It is not whether the landowner will be happy or upset if you land without his permission.

It is not about landing in an emergency, which means you will have given a PAN or MAYDAY call.

(It's certainly about the dodgy Pstop "emergencies" some people have suggested)

It applies to runways and paddocks

 

It's about who is responsible when things go wrong, and primarily you are, whether it's a biosecurity breach which causes stock/product outbreaks and losses, or a drain which is grassed over, or a strip which might be unsafe, or an event which is happening, the aircraft damaged, insurance refused, passengers injured or killed etc.

 

If one of these occurs, your defence might well be that "Under CAAP 22-1 (1) I contacted the owner and was given permission to land" plus any mitigating factors.

 

 

[facthunter]

Land where the owner puts the straw out for the animals.  Nev

[jackc]

5 hours ago, aro said:

That doesn't take away the requirement to have the permission of the landowner. It just means you are not breaking aviation regulations.

The best I could do would be to work out a flight plan of all air strips I may possibly need to use. Look them up here

 

http://www.flightace.com/airstrip.htm

 

Phone them up and ask for provisional landing permission, if needed.

At least, even IF I had to land at an alternate without permission, I could at least demonstrated I had tried my best to cover my flight, particularly IF the strip was not listed in the guide?

[turboplanner]

4 minutes ago, jackc said:

The best I could do would be to work out a flight plan of all air strips I may possibly need to use. Look them up here

 

http://www.flightace.com/airstrip.htm

 

Phone them up and ask for provisional landing permission, if needed.

At least, even IF I had to land at an alternate without permission, I could at least demonstrated I had tried my best to cover my flight, particularly IF the strip was not listed in the guide?

For local flights that would be good.

Before a cross country flight you would do the same exercise for alternate airstrips and plan your Pbreaks which will usually be less than aircraft endurance. That then goes into your Flight Plan. You can then phone them en route, pick another one etc.

[Jabiru7252]

I'd say that owners of private strips might not want 'anybody' landing there at anytime because the strip might get torn up a little, hence the 'permission required'. However, any owner who does his/her block without listening to reason needs a punch in the mouth.

[jackc]

19 minutes ago, Jabiru7252 said:

I'd say that owners of private strips might not want 'anybody' landing there at anytime because the strip might get torn up a little, hence the 'permission required'. However, any owner who does his/her block without listening to reason needs a punch in the mouth.

Valid for someone flying a heavy plane, not so much with a 600kg MTOW one.

A PIC skills of negotiation may be called upon, at some stage 🙂

 

[turboplanner]

19 minutes ago, jackc said:

Valid for someone flying a heavy plane, not so much with a 600kg MTOW one.

A PIC skills of negotiation may be called upon, at some stage 🙂

 

There's no need for this to go round and round with endless Sociology theories that just confuse people. We know what is required and we know why.

[jackc]

Just now, turboplanner said:

There's no need for this to go round and round with endless Sociology theories that just confuse people. We know what is required and we know why.

Go hide under your rock!  You never give up Turbs,  it’s always your way or the highway. I posted a link people may not know of……

You are nothing but an SOS……..

[facthunter]

The most important thing if you have to outland is not to damage the plane second and firstly not damage yourself. Next if it's a remote hot area be near a road or perhaps use the road if you are sure the traffic won't clobber you and there aren't any overhanging tree branches cattle grids and wires.

  In a paddock. If the grass is fairly long you don't know what's hiding in it. Could be a set of discs or tree stumps or a ditch.. also if a low wing the grass may catch an aileron hinge and spin you around and collapse the gear. Rather than go through a wire fence ground loop into wind prior to hitting it so you don't have your neck severed.. Nev

[skippydiesel]

Adding to all the hazards listed by Nev: Single phase power lines are impossible to see from the air, do not always follow tracks, sometimes the poles are not equally spaced, occasionally  branch to shearing shed , etc  and can hidden by a tree/line lot. So look for the posts while well out. The post shadow, is sometimes easier to see than the post. Follow the line of posts and look for any "branching".

[Old Koreelah]

7 hours ago, facthunter said:

Land where the owner puts the straw out for the animals.  Nev

That might be the worst spot, Nev.

I take off ever a paddock where black cattle are regularly hand-fed.
Their hooves have made the surface rough and if I got down safely they’re all likely to crowd around my plane for a rub while I’m away getting the carrier…

[Flightrite]

3 hours ago, jackc said:

Go hide under your rock!  You never give up Turbs,  it’s always your way or the highway. I posted a link people may not know of……

You are nothing but an SOS……..

Come on Jackc this guy is amusing he gets upset at everything if it's diff which is entertaining, let him rant on:-)

Edited September 15, 2021 by Flightrite