Paint ?

[skippydiesel]

I would like to have your comment & advice on:

 

Glasurit 68, with wet on wet 284-90, as a suitable aircraft paint over aluminium, that has been sealed/treated with  DeSoto 515X349 primer .

 

AND

 

Any other recommendations (with reasons) to do the job

[skippydiesel]

What! no paint guru's out there?

 

How can this be? most builders/owners/aircraft maintainers will have eider painted or commissioned a paint job - all I ask is you pass on your thought's/experience.

[facthunter]

It can add a lot of weight if you aren't careful  On older fabric covered Planes silver (fine aluminium) was added to the last application of dope Paint stripper can cause corrosion in Laps on sheet metal. Thick paint on doped fabric will  cause cracking of the paint and the fabric eventually. I'd be inclined to do neat touch ups  with acrylic enamel or acrylic Lacquer where a similar finish was originally used. The idea of a 2 pack doesn't appeal to me on small stuff. The thicker the paint the deeper the chips in it. .Nev

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

It can add a lot of weight if you aren't careful  On older fabric covered Planes silver (fine aluminium) was added to the last application of dope Paint stripper can cause corrosion in Laps on sheet metal. Thick paint on doped fabric will  cause cracking of the paint and the fabric eventually. I'd be inclined to do neat touch ups  with acrylic enamel or acrylic Lacquer where a similar finish was originally used. The idea of a 2 pack doesn't appeal to me on small stuff. The thicker the paint the deeper the chips in it. .Nev

Thanks Nev; The paints I have provisionally nominated have a very high solids content. The theory being that I will only need a thin (light) coat to achieve good coverage. My intention is stick to a white (shade to be determined) all over - theory again no need to double up (weight)on paint thickness and simplicity (amateur). The Glasurit 68 is a commercial vehicle (not car) paint,  so should have excellent durability and chip resistance.

 

I would be pleased to entertain other paint suggestions (Upol?)

[Marty_d]

I haven't quite got there yet, but I look forward to the responses!

Have you checked out Mark Kyle's thread about his Sav rebuild - not too long ago he was describing the painting process.  He got a load of white from one of the airlines I think.

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I reckon on a small Jabiru, there was said to be an extra 5kg if you used 2 pack paint instead of single-pack acrylic.

This made me decide to use the single pack stuff, and it still looks ok after many years. It also doesn't kill you so fast if you breathe in fumes while painting. 

[Bruce Tuncks]

The 2 pack stuff does look better though I have to admit.

[skippydiesel]

3 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

The 2 pack stuff does look better though I have to admit.

I hope to do a good job Bruce - my main objectives are durability, good light weight coverage. As a novice spray painter (one good aircraft job to my name & all the gear ready to go) I do not pretend to have an in depth knowledge of paint types/applicability, so seek all the advice I can get before committing to purchase the wet sticky stuff.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I reckon the single pack acrylic is best for an amateur, and certainly easier to apply nicely. Cars were done in this stuff till recently and they looked ok.

The main thing is to put up lights so you see reflections in the wet paint  and this helps you to put it in evenly. And practice your technique with the spray gun.

In my case, I had actually put up a plastic tent to spray 2 pack before deciding it was all too difficult... the 2 pack stays wet longer than the acrylic, which dries almost immediately. And you can touch up over acrylic any time. See the Jabiru in my little picture? That was done with acrylic, with stick-on numbers cut from plastic sheet from Bunnings.

A consideration would be if the aircraft will be hangared or not...   if not, I would recommend 2 pack with a UV rating.

 

[facthunter]

Removing 2 pack and cleaning the gun are difficult.. Most jobs these days are Base coat (thin) followed by clear , which is often a disaster after a few years.. Originally applied with electrostatic attraction  where you just point the hose roughly at the car and it all goes to it. Often the surface is VERY orange peelly and too thick. Nev

[eightyknots]

12 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

The 2 pack stuff does look better though I have to admit.

I am weighing up paint options right now.

 

Perhaps you could tell us how the two paints look different.

[Bruce Tuncks]

The 2 pack has that "wet look " which i guess means more glossy. It is also a tougher coating, so it is less likely to show a scratch.

If you use 2 pack, you need an independent air supply for your special mask as well as other stuff. If you have a friendly mate with a spray-bake booth then use that.

Most new Jabirus would be done in 2 pack these days.

Once, I did a glider in single-pack and it was a mistake, the paint job was not tough or durable enough. But I think that painting the kit-built Jabiru in single-pack was the right thing to do.

[skippydiesel]

Bruce maaate no longer true - we have water born 2 pack now (at least 7 years) and high volume low pressure (HVLP) application. Larger droplets, less nasty thinners, dont require a clear coat, can be relativly (to old stuff) safely sprayed using the appropriate filters on your mask & a full cover disposable overall (talk to a good paint supply shop). Try and avoided getting any paint type on your skin - water born can be washed off immediately after spraying.

 

You should always have a good in flow of fresh air and an exhaust/extractor fan - not the other way around, as strong air current will have negative impact on paint delivery. I used a cheap Chinese industrial pedestal fan as my extractor and home made plastic shroud, with air in flow through air-conditioning filer panels, to reduce dust/insect impact on my paint job.

 

2 pack will require a minimum temperature over a stated time for best cure (eg  min 22 degrees for 24 hrs) - I used an old reverse cycle window rattler ($40 on Gum Tree), and digital fridge style thermometers (with min max  recording function). Air con at floor level , several thermometers at "work" level - set air con when you get a reasonably consistent target temperature - worked like a charm!

 

HVLP  gun will need a high volume compressor - not so easy to find, as most are high pressure, relativly low volume (many dont even quote volume). Depending on paint you will be spraying as low as 22 - 30 psi - very different to the old 60+ psi guns. The old systems/guns created very high levels of ultrafine toxic aerosols. HVLP produce larger droplets and much lower levels of fine aerosol. More paint "hits" the target and less floats off into the environment and your lungs.

 

I also understand that paints such as Gasurit  68 are very high in "solids" making it much easier to get good coverage with minimum passes/application and therefor weight.

 

I have used the Stewart System (certified for aircraft) to very good effect/result  - never used Glasurit. hence my questions. Why not use Stewart again - cost and no need. The Stewart was used because it was compatible with the fabric/composite airframe. The aluminium airframe I am now looking at doe not require the same level of care/protection.

 

Don't know if true but have been lead to believe, all Australian sourced external/vehicle paints are high in UV resistance.

Edited September 21, 2021 by skippydiesel

[kgwilson]

I bought a HVLP spray kit off Ebay for just over $30.00 which included 2 guns, 1 for touch up and small items & the other full sized both with gravity fed paint delivery all in a nice blow moulded case. Very good quality guns. I learned to paint from Ebay clips & then my hangar doors. My compressor is a standard 2.5 HP electric with 40 litre tank and easily coped with the job. Pressure around 25 psi and I also installed an in line humidity control device. I used an industrial Dulux 2 pack, Luxathane for the white & Dulux Quantum FX for the metallic blue. The paint wasn't cheap though. The blue cost $450.00 for 4 litres. Aluminium preparation was with prekote a non toxic replacement for alodine now used in the airline and defence industries and Hichem etch primer.

 

I cut a hole in the back of the hangar & stuck a large industrial extractor fan there & had the hangar front open. Didn't bother with plastic sheeting to make a temporary spray booth. I also chose warm calm days & got no dust or insects stuck on the job. 

 

The paint is high gloss and as good as the day it went on in 2014. The blue is especially effective with the medium metal particle size I chose. The coating is hard though and if there are areas of movement it will crack.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Wonderful news guys. I like it that paints have been so improved that my experience has been rendered obsolete... great says I.

[skippydiesel]

Not true Bruce - you have great experience/wisdom.

 

The paint industry seems to be a chemically fast moving one,  particularly in the area of environmental impact & personal risk/toxicity. The only reason I know (very little/dangerous) is because I have recently been trying to find a suitable paint for a new aircraft project.

[spacesailor]

Now they're using ' water ' based  paint on cars.

spacesailor

[onetrack]

The water-based paints on cars are absolute crap. I'm in the process of reconditioning a 2010 Ford Ranger (PK model) cab-chassis.  It's an ex-country-council vehicle that's spent all its time outdoors.  The original (water-based) paint is so aged and chalky, I'm having to give the vehicle a complete respray. Guess what's going on it? Yep, a nice straightforward 2 pack. I've already done all the panels from the firewall forward (mudguards, bonnet, bumper), and the difference in finish is incredible.

 

My 2013 Hilux traytop is suffering paint chalkiness and dullness, the same as the Ranger.  The water-based factory paints are all cost-saving and meeting lower levels of factory emissions and waste. Give me a solvent-based paint anytime!

 

You certainly do have to be very careful with the 2-pack application.  The hardener is methyl-isocyanate, an organic cyanide compound which is highly toxic if ingested in any manner (breathing or contact with skin).

The stuff causes liver and kidney cancers and various other cancers as well. It's the chemical that was released in the 1984 Bhopal Union Carbide disaster, which disaster has resulted in at least 15,000 deaths.

 

However, using the proper PPE, and following the manufacturers recommendations, using and applying 2-pack is no more dangerous than handling any other toxic product which requires care in handling.

[spacesailor]

Ford Ranger

Saw a new one in Dubo show, and it was absolutely full of paint faults.

Orange peel, Sags, that list went right round the vehicle, & when l told the dealer about it ,he wasn,t bothered at all.

spacesailor

[skippydiesel]

12 hours ago, spacesailor said:

Now they're using ' water ' based  paint on cars.

spacesailor

Cant comment on the car statement however water BORN (not based) as in carriage/transported, has worked very well for me (Stewart System paints).

[onetrack]

If a paint system is "water-borne", it's water-based. There's no combination of solvent-based and water-based paint systems. The water-based paint systems wax long and lyrical about the vastly increased safety of water-based paints - which is an admirable feature - but any water-based paint system has to have equal durability to any solvent-based paint system, to be advantageous.

 

I have yet to find a vehicle, equipment or machinery finish in a water based paint that equals the durability of a solvent-based paint. But I have not used Stewart System paints.

 

However, I will admit, in my experience with house paints, the water-based exterior paint in the form of Dulux Weathershield, is exceptionally durable. It forms an almost plastic-like coating, which is good for 12 or 15 years in exterior applications.

It's the only water-based paint I've ever found with highly acceptable durability in outdoor conditions. The Stewart System appears to be a highly refined paint system with acceptable durability. High UV resistance, and resistance to cracking with movement, have to be high on the list of primary requirements with any paint that has to endure outdoor conditions.

 

[spacesailor]

Add some alcohol to the water !, then it,s solvent- water (ISOALCOHOL ) WILL EVEN ABSORB BUTTER-FAT, " EMULSYIFING ".

spacesailor

[skippydiesel]

Still hoping to get some constructive/insightful comments on my initial question about Gasurit 68 as a finish paint for an aluminium skinned aircraft OR alternative suggestions.

 

https://www.glasurit.com/au/topcoat-lines-commercial-vehicles

[kgwilson]

Is it water based? if so consider the comments here from others regarding water based automotive paints. I was advised to use Industrial 2 pack due to its much higher resistance to chemicals, pollutants, salt etc, higher gloss levels without a clear coat top and better wear properties. It was also more expensive than automotive 2 packs.

[onetrack]

I have not used Glasurit 68 specifically - but I have used other very similar German 2 pack paints. Note that Glasurit 68 is a 2 pack specifically designed for commercial vehicles and commercial vehicle bodies.

Accordingly, it will be a very durable paint - but it will likely be a thicker coating paint when finished, as compared to specific aviation paints.

I note the tech specs quote a 40 to 60 micron film build thickness, but no final thickness indication.

I don't know how the final thickness of Glasurit 68 compares to specific aircraft paints, but I wouldn't be surprised to find the specific aircraft paints are designed to have a thinner level of coating.

I note that in one Boeing document, Boeing quote their aircraft paint thickness as "3.5 to 5 mil" (89 to 127 micron).

As well as durability, a good coating thickness is desirable for commercial vehicles, the paint weight is not considered in this designed application.

Glasurit is a product of BASF and made in Germany, and the name is highly respected. I have never had any problems using the German 2 pack paints. But you may want to ask the Glasurit dealer/agent if they have specific aircraft paints.

 

https://tech-info.glasurit.com/en_UK/CV_VOC/924-68.pdf

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by onetrack