Are We Losing Interest?

[walrus]

This post on Pprune caught my eye:

 

“

Are we loosing interest ? What's happening ?

---

Greetings, as a regular visitor to this forum over many, many years I am noticing a real decline in what is available for me to read.

Every morning without hesitation, I log online and look at a couple of forums that I have an interest in and try to keep up-to-date with all things aviation.

Is it just me or is there a real decline in the people using these forums and therefore the amount of information we are sharing ?

To me, it looks like everybody is just losing interest, have got too old and are not flying or they have changed to other interests and hobbies.

Hopefully I am wrong and it is just a "slow period" in the life of the forum but what do others think ? Should I be looking at other avenues to feed my obsessions.”

 

I can think of two reasons for this state of affairs………

 

 

1. Pprune is now owned by an American Internet brands conglomerate. In my opinion, they have no interest in “colourful” topics or postings and their moderators act accordingly to remove anything or anyone controversial. The result, to quote an American author, is that reading Pprune is like drowning in maple syrup.

 

2. The presence and prior behaviour of CASA has a continuing “chilling effect” (to use the US Supreme Court term) on the discussion of a lot of aviation topics and subjects by Australian pilots on internet forums. Anything you write can and will be discovered and used against you if you are prosecuted or could trigger. an investigation. This is also the reason, in my opinion, for the paucity of Australian aviation content on Youtube and suchlike - CASA trawls through it looking for offences to prosecute.

 

This is the reality of Australian Aviation: - a guilty pleasure to be enjoyed in secret.

[Soleair]

Hello Walrus.

 

I fear you are right. Another aircraft-specific forum I have used for 8 years, & used to be crammed full of builders' & flyers' anecdotes has virtually dried up, with one long standing member making the same observations as you do.

 

I grew up making model  aeroplanes, like many of my generation (I'm 71), and then got into flying via hangliding, microlights, gliding, & eventually graduated to PPL.  My health now prevents me flying, but I still visit forums.

 

I do not see the same level of early interest in flying that seemed prevalent in my day. The younger guys certainly have the money to fly (unless runaway house prices have taken all their money?), but the clubs seem exclusively populated by old farts of my generation, who usually like to talk about their flying stories. Very few youngsters from what I've seen.

 

Perhaps they prefer the instant gratification of computer games, or just prefer to use their leisure for beer & barbecue. Flying is perceived as difficult, dangerous & expensive, and few seem to get as far as even a trial flight. What fun & achievement they're missing out on!

 

And, as you say, the omnipresent power of CASA doesn't help. In the UK in the 70's & early 80's we were exempt from any regulation. I, like others, designed, built & flew 3 microlights, before graduating to design on a fully licenced 'conventional'  trainer. Without the freedom of those early days, it is doubtful I'd have finished up flying & working in aviation. Indeed, due to a re-registration issue recently, my poor little plane spent 2 years in a hangar at huge cost, unable to fly. I eventually cut my losses, sold it, and that's the last I shall fly.

 

I don't know what the solution is. Neither of my sons in their early 40's is interested in flying. But I agree, I think the whole sport aviation scene is gradually atrophying. But I'm so grateful for the fun, pleasure & excitement flying light aeroplanes has given me.

 

Bruce

Edited September 19, 2021 by Soleair

[turboplanner]

(a) I wouldn't have wasted my time quoting that person, based on what he's done to this site in the past.

(b) When you've gone over how to land in a crosswind ten or so times, you tend to know what's coming, so it might seem like nothing's happening, but it is for people new to flying.

(c) Over the past ten years or so some poor choices of aircraft were made and those aircraft are now rotting in sheds. More people should have flown good flying school aircraft, to become confident in their skills and quite a few other reasons pilots came in and dropped out. When that sequence occurs those people tend not to suggest their friends try it. However despite that the RAA membership numbers have held up well, and the annual aircraft movements at capital cities are good.

(d) You'd have to have been living under a rock not to know that people from CASA, Airservices, ATSB etc. are regular and welcome participants in this forum, because they are flying enthusiasts like you. I don't think they bother to bring a book and notate "Sunny did this or said that".  The safety people operate on hard evidence, not something someone wrote, and you'd realise that some outlandish and self incriminating stories have been written, but they can pick a BS artist like the rest of us.

As far as your tagline goes, you realise that when you go driving the Police Force is monitoring you on the road and via cameras, when you go boating, they're launching their boats too, and if you decide to go fishing the chances are there'll be a 4WD at the end of the jetty or launching ramp when you come in.

 

 

[facthunter]

I always felt Pprune was a gathering of half psychotic airline pilots trying to out wit or destroy each other. I go there if a specific issue is about as sometimes someone with real knowledge surfaces. Why would you post there?

   As to who's interested in continuing . there's a lot of activity WE (older) people got up to with risk and the ability to try your hand at flying and fiddling with your  relatively cheap flying contraption. Not much of that happens now. Maybe it's over.

  Lets BE REAL too. CASA doesn't want the potential risk of encouraging this type of activity and is there the skills base in the young people there once was in things like oxy welding sheetmetal work and woodwork. and basic engine building?

    It's going to be a hard (and fairly expensive) row to hoe for many and building by yourself is a pretty soul destroying pastime when most just buy off the hook, Learn to fly at a basic level and then try to find someway of justifying it, and not scare the $#!T out of yourself with a weather event or some failure or other. It gets down to reward for effort. Bang for your buck, and there's a lot of things that compete there . I've had a "Flying life" but today it's not like it was. It's more sterile and there's no tolerance for thinking outside the square.. One time CASA or it's equivalent was mostly full of keen aviators, mainly from WARS and the DG himself would come up and award the New PPL's their "wings". There was a Department of Civil Aviation  existing by itself. Now it's all bundled. in together with all forms of Transport and AIRLINES is the main  Concern in the aviation sector. Nev

[rgmwa]

I was interested to see that in May/Jun/July this year the Royal Aero Club in WA recorded 13 first solos, 2 RPL's, 4 PPL's, 5 CPL's and 5 Instructor ratings, which is about 10 per month. They are not the only flight school operating at Jandakot, so there must still be a reasonable number of people interested in learning to fly.

 

 

[facthunter]

10 of what though.? Some of those could be  the same people in a 3 month period.  Every instructor has to have done a CPL PPL and first solo.. i'm not suggesting they all did in 3 months but I've seen a few do it quickly at times. Nev

[rgmwa]

All different individuals Nev, judging by the happy smiling faces in the photos being congratulated by their various instructors.

[facthunter]

Have you actually counted the number?   Nev

[turboplanner]

9 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Have you actually counted the number?   Nev

Jandakot had 208,778 aircraft movements in 2018 - that would have to include plenty of young people flying.

[facthunter]

That may well but it's not my point though.   Nev

[rgmwa]

52 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Have you actually counted the number?   Nev

https://issuu.com/racwamarketing/docs/tarmac_topics_-_june_-_july_v3?fr=sYzEwOTM5MjQ2ODM

The article actually says these are the numbers for just June and July, not May-July as I first said.

Edited September 19, 2021 by rgmwa

[facthunter]

it's impressive but I still can't determine if there's any doubling up. It's no big deal but I thought it might be a possibility, that's all. It does happen that people qualify for more than one. over a sometimes quite short  period. You also have Upgrades for instructors there. To get an instructor rating on a CPL is only about 25 hours from memory if you do it in minimum time.  Nev 

[Student Pilot]

I'm a lazy sod so can't be bovered looking up the figures but........Bankstown is an example of the decline in GA. Now compared to 70's, 80's?

I disagree with Turbo's optimistic rosy view of GA and that CASA staff are keen flying enthusiasts. (Turbo, you employed by CASA or an ex CASA employee?) I've been flying professionally for 40 years and have had my own aviation business and been chief pilot for several others, in 40 years I can only think of one positive experience with CASA. Others I fly with have the same experience. Any rural town in Eastern Oz walk outside and listen, 70's and 80's you would always hear an aircraft. I might hear one 3 times a year now.

Over-complication of regs, unnecessary changes in licensing and compliance for no reason, take Part 61 licence as an example. Read the prune thread with Glenn Buckley as to an example of CASA's treatment of GA.
CASA moto......"We're not happy till your not happy" is the joke line, if it wasn't so true it would be funny.

[KRviator]

15 minutes ago, Student Pilot said:

Over-complication of regs, unnecessary changes in licensing and compliance for no reason, take Part 61 licence as an example. Read the prune thread with Glenn Buckley as to an example of CASA's treatment of GA.
CASA moto......"We're not happy till your not happy" is the joke line, if it wasn't so true it would be funny.

Add to that the John Quadrio and Richard Rudd scandals too.

 

Once might be a mistake, two, an unlikely but remotely possible co-incidence. Three or more? Yeah, nah, that's not either of the above....

[turboplanner]

29 minutes ago, Student Pilot said:

I'm a lazy sod so can't be bovered looking up the figures but........Bankstown is an example of the decline in GA. Now compared to 70's, 80's?

I disagree with Turbo's optimistic rosy view of GA and that CASA staff are keen flying enthusiasts. (Turbo, you employed by CASA or an ex CASA employee?) I've been flying professionally for 40 years and have had my own aviation business and been chief pilot for several others, in 40 years I can only think of one positive experience with CASA. Others I fly with have the same experience. Any rural town in Eastern Oz walk outside and listen, 70's and 80's you would always hear an aircraft. I might hear one 3 times a year now.

Over-complication of regs, unnecessary changes in licensing and compliance for no reason, take Part 61 licence as an example. Read the prune thread with Glenn Buckley as to an example of CASA's treatment of GA.
CASA moto......"We're not happy till your not happy" is the joke line, if it wasn't so true it would be funny.

I have nothing to do with CASA.

Have a look at Naracoorte on google earth. In the 70s and 80s there was a shed there about the size of a double garage and the tiny "terminal" Reg Ansett built in the sixties, and no home aircraft. Now there's bitumen, aircraft parked etc.

Moorabbin 70s =1 main runway, now two parallel runways operating, currently 295,000 air movements per year. Hepas of aircraft, but certainly not doing things like touring which everyone aspired to in the 70s. What you are talking about in the local town could well be true, but it could be that the training is going on at another hub. e.g. in the 60s, Nhill was the centre of training, and they flew to several lower south east/vic towns on a rotating basis.  Maybe Naracroorte is no the primary.

[Student Pilot]

We'll have to disagree Turbo, every airfield I've travelled to has way less traffic than years gone by. Most I talk to say GA is in a downward spiral.

[onetrack]

The big problem as regards kit planes is that the older generation (those over their early 60's) were often taught a trade, and working with your hands wasn't looked down on quite so much as the last 3 or 4 decades.

As a result of the destruction of our trade colleges, and other useful training institutions - plus, the advent of mass production of cheap goods from Asia (along with constant advertising and marketing), the younger ones no longer have the manual skills or trade training to do things, such as build a kit plane.

Add in the constant impact of the Internet and electronic devices, coupled with instant gratification seeking (aided by that smooth and persistent marketing and sales), and the younger people want everything NOW, they want it NEW, and they want it delivered, ready to operate, out of a glitzy box.

 

Example:  A good mate is a fitter & turner/machinist, a year older than me at 72. He restores and reconditions machine tools. He's rebuilding an older lathe gearbox, and one of his three sons (all born in the 1970's) comes up to him and says, "What are you doing, Dad?"

Dad: "I'm cutting a new gear to replace this damaged one in the gearbox, so I can get the lathe operational again".

Son: "Why don't you just bin this lathe, and buy a new one?"

Dad: "Because these lathes were built to last and to be repaired, and it's wasteful to bin them, just because one gear in the gearbox has stripped teeth".

Son: "Oh. I couldn't be bothered spending the time and effort you put in to fix these old things. I just chuck stuff in the bin and go buy the latest and greatest".

 

Son goes back to his new iPhone, new laptop and new electronic gaming devices. Makes plans to meet up with mates to have a gaming session. Is looking at trading his car, because it's 6 yrs old and he doesn't want to spend money fixing it, and besides, the new cars look HOT!

He wouldn't think of trying to repair anything on it, anyway, because everything to do with any repairs on cars today, is simply hook up the laptop and OBD reader, get the fault codes, and "scrap that component, go buy a complete replacement component".  

[jackc]

Well, for me I am late to the Aviation party so I am fairly keen at 2 months shy of 70.  I think the flying schools with super slick plastic ships, with ‘Home  and Away’ screens in them costing 150-200k and training rates at $320 per hour will all but kill affordable Aviation.  Some flying schools doing Rec Aviation are upselling people for everything they can get……..

I yearn for the no rego, no licence category for foundation Aviation to give aspiring Aviators to get a start at a fair price.

Gliding?  I visited our local Gliding field yesterday, looking for temp hangarage and no one there?  They have a nice 1.7km airstrip etc. The grounds unkept, the windsock in shreds 😞. It’s used to be very busy once, looks like interest has dropped off, sadly.

Maybe the winter season?  

[rgmwa]

For the last year or so I've been involved as a part-time mentor with the SAAA RV-12 build project that several high schools around the country are participating in.  Our school is building the fuselage, which is by far the most complex part of the build, and it's been interesting to see how a bunch of Year 11 students (actually one group in 2020 and the current one) with no prior aircraft related skills have responded to the challenge of reading instructions carefully, preparing parts, riveting etc. Most of them have never been up in a small aircraft before or even seen one up close.  

 

The results, as far as I can see, are pretty much as you might expect.  Some lost interest quickly as the initial work was pretty tedious and repetitive. Most seemed to have little understanding of how the parts they were working on fitted into the bigger picture, although the large 3-D plan pinned up on the wall helped.  Some were surprisingly clumsy with simple hand tools, but I don't know if that's an age-related thing or the result of spending too much time in front of a computer or on their phones.  I think there were only two girls who participated (in the first year), but they were very good. They had  a good attitude and were careful and accurate in what they were doing, but had to drop out when they went on to Year 12. The same couldn't be said of all the boys, but most seemed OK. Of the 16 or so who started this year, I think there are about half a dozen who have made it this far. One in particular has been really keen and involved and might well end up doing something in aviation. The others have been interested enough to show up regularly and help each other along.  It's actually easier to work with a smaller group since things have to be  done in sequence, particularly as the build progresses, and steps are less likely to be missed if fewer students are working on it.

 

Of course, it's very difficult to tackle a project of this size and complexity when there are only a couple of working sessions a week and the students have a lot of other things they have to do. Consequently some of the mentors and other SAAA members have had to step up to work on the trickier tasks just to get the project done, but all credit to SAAA for making the build possible at all. On the whole, the students who stuck with it have done a pretty creditable job and learned quite a lot. Few parts have been messed up and not much has had to be disassembled because some step was missed. Once they put all the parts together at Narromine next year, I'm sure it will fly and who knows what these kids may end up doing in the future.  Several similar projects have been done in NZ and quite a few in US high schools.  

 

 

[walrus]

One track:

Quote

 

The big problem as regards kit planes is that the older generation (those over their early 60's) were often taught a trade, and working with your hands wasn't looked down on quite so much as the last 3 or 4 decades.

As a result of the destruction of our trade colleges, and other useful training institutions - plus, the advent of mass production of cheap goods from Asia (along with constant advertising and marketing), the younger ones no longer have the manual skills or trade training to do things, such as build a kit plane.

Add in the constant impact of the Internet and electronic devices, coupled with instant gratification seeking (aided by that smooth and persistent marketing and sales), and the younger people want everything NOW, they want it NEW, and they want it delivered, ready to operate, out of a glitzy box.

 

Example:  A good mate is a fitter & turner/machinist, a year older than me at 72. He restores and reconditions machine tools. He's rebuilding an older lathe gearbox, and one of his three sons (all born in the 1970's) comes up to him and says, "What are you doing, Dad?"

Dad: "I'm cutting a new gear to replace this damaged one in the gearbox, so I can get the lathe operational again".

Son: "Why don't you just bin this lathe, and buy a new one?"

Dad: "Because these lathes were built to last and to be repaired, and it's wasteful to bin them, just because one gear in the gearbox has stripped teeth".

Son: "Oh. I couldn't be bothered spending the time and effort you put in to fix these old things. I just chuck stuff in the bin and go buy the latest and greatest".

 

Son goes back to his new iPhone, new laptop and new electronic gaming devices. Makes plans to meet up with mates to have a gaming session. Is looking at trading his car, because it's 6 yrs old and he doesn't want to spend money fixing it, and besides, the new cars look HOT!

He wouldn't think of trying to repair anything on it, anyway, because everything to do with any repairs on cars today, is simply hook up the laptop and OBD reader, get the fault codes, and "scrap that component, go buy a complete replacement component".  

I think this is close to the mark. I have two stepsons. Both doing important jobs for six figure ++ salaries. One likes getting his hands dirty, the other mirrors Onetracks mates son. He works twelve hour plus days talking to everyone from houston to london, has the latest sports-car and his view of manual labor is “why? I make enough money per hour to buy new rather than take the time to learn to fix things”. His idea of aviation is seat 1A business class.

 

Given the pace and remuneration of his job that is understandable. What little free time he has is spent on me me me me behaviour.

 

‘’The other likes working with his hands, currently with timber and with as little skill as I had at his age.

 

Me? Parental expectations consigned me to University and intellectual pursuits when I would have liked to be a tradesman. I’ve compensated for that now. I know a few other professionals who have done the same.

 

I get a real kick out of flying something I built but today such delayed gratification is not popular.

 

‘’Furthermore the amount of red tape and administrative BS is a major barrier for new entrants.

[Student Pilot]

Cost is the main cause people aren't flying. Wages have been going backwards at 2% a year for the last 30 or 40 years compared to cost of living. For people on wages even flying in an RAA aircraft is not feasible. For a lower priced GA aircraft not including the purchase price you would be looking at between 10 and 20 thousand dollars a year depending on how many hours flown. 

[facthunter]

Aviation has always been a good way to get rid of money. You can do more hours on a weeks wages NOW than you could in the 50's and 60's though.  Maybe the result is not as good? I'm not sure but remember all trainers were aerobatic and  students did proper stalls and steep turns  spins sideslipping .etc.  Pilot's were  considered to be doing something special and people did Joyflights and went to aerodromes to watch if they saw anything special coming in.. An RAAus plane is very limited in what it can do and so are most GA planes.

  Maybe the saying "IF you can drive a car then you can fly a plane" consigned it to the HO HUM  section in the things to do area..

  Hangar space is essential. That's costly and difficult to get. In near city aerodromes you are going to spend a lot of time waiting to get into the air and complex procedures and lanes of entry.etc. Lost of people I know have given it up as keeping current is not easy to do and in the end you can't justify the cost and BS.  Your kids are unlikely to share your indulgences as they have their own peer group activities. and a different set of priorities. Nev

 

[Flightrite]

My 3 x offspring where never interested in aviation growing up & whilst I was a little disappointed at the time I'm now kinda grateful as it's a very unstable commercial industry with a rocky future. TAA/ANA days at 55 they took you out in a pine box!

GA has been declining for some time, money, reg's & other interests as well as fewer & fewer people see planes other than a mode of transport to the Gold Coast for a holiday! My interest (which some believe I'm not a pilot, love that😁) was due to the fact that I grew up across the paddocks of a major drome and as kids we rode our bikes over there leaving them with the car park attendant as we wandered around the GA planes unchallenged like kids in a lolly shop 🙂 Today there's no kids with their noses pressed hard up against the fence and everything is out of bounds to the curious:-(

Way of the future sadly:-(

[rgmwa]

6 minutes ago, Flightrite said:

... fewer & fewer people see planes other than a mode of transport to the Gold Coast for a holiday!

Too true!  It's depressing to get on a commercial flight these days. The first thing most of the passengers do is pull down the window shades so they can see their electronic gadgets better. You spend the whole flight stuck in a dimly lit tube until you get off at the other end. Granted you can't see a lot from 35,000 feet, but at least in years gone by people treated a plane trip as an event and took some interest in what was happening. Not any more.

[facthunter]

They are oblivious to most things around them. To most  their JOB is them, What are Ya?  meaning what job do you have. This determines whether it's worth wasting any time to talk to you.. . In my opinion informing people you are an Airline Pilot won't get you far. What they do when off duty might be more rewarding and interesting. .  

  The ONLY place to be on an Airliner is up the front where you have a fighting chance if things go wrong otherwise you just have to hope they know what they are doing. I've known a couple of times that they didn't and there are pilots I know who I don't want to be flown by. Flying to Bali for a wedding and such is a bit "thing" when you think of all the fuel  and low wages you are relying on. BALI used to be a beautiful Place. and Venice also. Nev