Are We Losing Interest?

[turboplanner]

Flying has stuffed Bali and Venice too?

 

This thread was started by someone who was having a look at someone else's post in a GA Forum and the poster was presenting a depressing view.

That doesn't nean the sky has fallen in RA or for that matter generally.

RA is a different animal to GA in many ways and it capable of firing up in its own area if people wanted to fire it up.

However, you do that by broadcasting positive things not QED arguments that flying is stuffed.

 

[jackc]

2 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Flying has stuffed Bali and Venice too?

 

This thread was started by someone who was having a look at someone else's post in a GA Forum and the poster was presenting a depressing view.

That doesn't nean the sky has fallen in RA or for that matter generally.

RA is a different animal to GA in many ways and it capable of firing up in its own area if people wanted to fire it up.

However, you do that by broadcasting positive things not QED arguments that flying is stuffed.

 

Everyone has an opinion, right or wrong about Aviation.  I spoke to a former student pilot last week, he sold his plane…….he is done with aircraft, seems his instructor was a major reason…….in his area, no other choices.

I suggested keep the plane and IF he studies the Learn to Fly Youtube videos…….he should be ‘solo’ by episode 22 🙂 

Who needs an instructor!!!  Youtube won’t criticise your crappy flying 🙂

[facthunter]

You have totally pulled that out of context Turbs. The point WAS large masses of people descend upon such places ruining it for the locals. The fact the Balinese have become dependent on the trade none the less.  Some profit out of cruise ships in Venice but locals can't afford to live there and the place is not like it was. ALL these low cost things rely on lower than normal wages and conditions. Planes aren't paying the true cost of fuel either Nev

.

[walrus]

What, I think originally got my attention was the pprune posters opinion that: "Is it just me or is there a real decline in the people using these forums and therefore the amount of information we are sharing ? To me, it looks like everybody is just losing interest".

 

Ii thought that this was relevant because perhaps coincidentally, The Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Committee of the Senate has apparently commented on the scarcity of submissions to its latest aviation review compared to the previous forsyth review.

 

In my opinion, there are two reasons for a lack of engagement: either things are going so well that everybody has nothing to complain about, or,  the industry has given up believing that meaningful change will result from engaging with Government. Given the volume of reviews and reports over the years which appear to have been ignored, there might be some truth in the latter.

 

If that situation is correct - that industry has given up hope, then that is dire because it presages collapse in investment, innovation, growth and jobs.

 

As for a rosy future for RAAus, I would hope so and technically at least there is ongoing investment innovation and growth. However, we exist at the whim of the regulator and we live hand to mouth, so to speak on time limited exemptions. We are unimportant fringe dwellers -rather like illegal immigrants on protection visas. We exist at the whim of the regulator, all CASA has to do to crush us is a small act of omission - decline to renew exemptions for whatever reason and we are toast.

 

 

[turboplanner]

52 minutes ago, facthunter said:

You have totally pulled that out of context Turbs. The point WAS large masses of people descend upon such places ruining it for the locals. The fact the Balinese have become dependent on the trade none the less.  Some profit out of cruise ships in Venice but locals can't afford to live there and the place is not like it was. ALL these low cost things rely on lower than normal wages and conditions. 

 

Well you're talking general sociology now; in fact Italy was stuffed a thousand years before that by Megalopolis.

 

I was suggesting there's no reason for everyone to be getting gloomy about RA, it sends the wrong message to the people we should be encouraging to take over.

 

I don't have a problem with people who want to get together and have a good cry about their history but we've had several of this "Flying is stuffed" threads when RAA as at 8000 members, then it grew to 10,000 members, then while another lot were having a cry it grew to 12,000 members. It may have dropped back from there, I haven't heard any figures lately, but it's a long way back to 8000, let alone being the disaster that people were talking about at 8000.

 

 

[turboplanner]

11 minutes ago, walrus said:

As for a rosy future for RAAus, I would hope so and technically at least there is ongoing investment innovation and growth. However, we exist at the whim of the regulator and we live hand to mouth, so to speak on time limited exemptions. We are unimportant fringe dwellers -rather like illegal immigrants on protection visas. We exist at the whim of the regulator, all CASA has to do to crush us is a small act of omission - decline to renew exemptions for whatever reason and we are toast.

The exemptions that allowed RA to fly beyond 300 ft altitude are documentary conditions which apply throughout the thousands of Acts of Parliament over many decades, and certainly are not a knife to the throat. The Government of the day cleverly set them up on the basis of Self Administration so if there was an explosion of lawsuits from misdeeds they would be aimed at the Administrators and people directly responsible - not the Government. So in fact there are greater imperitaves to closely look at what happens on the roads where motorists are NOT self administered, to protect the State Governments rather than to worry about self administering bodies.

 

For this reason it is unlikely that the Government would let go of that exemption policy.

 

 

[Yenn]

Was the original question about people using forums. That was what I thought it was and it immediately went off track into aviation in general.

I think the participation in forums is getting less and probably because the subject seems to be distorted immediately as per this case.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, jackc said:

I spoke to a former student pilot last week, he sold his plane…….he is done with aircraft, seems his instructor was a major reason…….in his area, no other choices.

It's always been harder for country people for this sort of reason.

The solution has been that an Instructor decides to fly to a different district every week, or something similar bringing all the students in the catchment area within about a 30 minute drive. He advertises and builds up a clientele just like any other business.

 

A second way is a group of potential students contacts an instructor and agrees to a specific number of hours per year, with the same result; the instructor is making money and he flies in to the students.

 

I wouldn't offer your other suggestion because you are legally responsible for you advice and you can't learn to fly an aircraft safety by correspondence.

 

[facthunter]

I've Been involved (deeply at  times) with aviation  for a long time in various roles where I've met and dealt with a wide variety of people in the Industry and I couldn't with any honesty reply any different from what I have, People with similar experience to me think the same. CASA would have to shoulder much of the blame if we are serious AND various Governments here.. For years I've held on hoping for some improvement and I see none. You may call that negative but I call it recognition of the facts. What's the point of gilding the lily if the facts are otherwise.? Pilot apathy has been a part. but we are where we are.. Nev

[KRviator]

The original 'Prune thread was about those specific forums, not aviation as a whole, however, there are many parallels. FB has cost a great many decent forums their membership as people have a finite amount of time to spend online, and when they connect with their friends & family on FB, they can also be told about new posts on any relevant groups. 

 

I'm on two aviation buy/sell/swap sites, two local community pages and two Comanche groups, as well as RF/Pprune & a couple of industry-specific forums and all the internet/PHP-based ones have suffered a significant decline in members since FB came along, and that's outside aviation.

 

Aviation's general decline in Australia does not help matters, whether you attribute that to decreasing spending money compared to years gone by, the Cretins Against Sensible Aviation, Aero Club politics or simply people finding more interesting things to do. Don't forget we had the thread last year about the general decline in planes for sale on the RAAus classifieds, and you can also see that with the various Broker's and their current listings. Some seem to delight in leaving a dozen "sold" planes on their webpage to hide the fact they only have 3 actual ones for sale. Now is that because more people are hanging on to their planes and actually flying them? I don't think so, people just CBF doing maintenance on them, so they become a lawn ornament and eventually unsellable, and those that want a new plane can't afford it these days.

[facthunter]

They are certainly NOT an Investment and Like Boats can make money disappear fast when NOT being used. A lot of US were HOOKED on planes years ago and put every CENT/Penny into their training to qualify.. Governments even gave out scholarships to subsidise their training at times. when( RARELY )Pilot shortages were predicted. WE Pilots are a mixed lot. I would consider  keeping them happy would be an impossible task because its hierarchial and the goalposts keep being moved. Whatever they get some always want more. Management always is jealous of them and wants them to work for nothing as they increasingly have NO clue as to what the job is like., nor do they Care in most cases. There were occasions where the management were Ex pilots and even kept flying.  I'd like to Cite Capt Frank J  Ball here, one of the most decent people I ever Met Nev

Edited September 20, 2021 by facthunter

[Blueadventures]

18 hours ago, jackc said:

Well, for me I am late to the Aviation party so I am fairly keen at 2 months shy of 70.  I think the flying schools with super slick plastic ships, with ‘Home  and Away’ screens in them costing 150-200k and training rates at $320 per hour will all but kill affordable Aviation.  Some flying schools doing Rec Aviation are upselling people for everything they can get……..

I yearn for the no rego, no licence category for foundation Aviation to give aspiring Aviators to get a start at a fair price.

Gliding?  I visited our local Gliding field yesterday, looking for temp hangarage and no one there?  They have a nice 1.7km airstrip etc. The grounds unkept, the windsock in shreds 😞. It’s used to be very busy once, looks like interest has dropped off, sadly.

Maybe the winter season?  

Re gliding field send a message to sandman on this site. Chris has a hangar with his drifter in and would know what’s happening. Hope this helps your query.

[jackc]

2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

It's always been harder for country people for this sort of reason.

The solution has been that an Instructor decides to fly to a different district every week, or something similar bringing all the students in the catchment area within about a 30 minute drive. He advertises and builds up a clientele just like any other business.

 

A second way is a group of potential students contacts an instructor and agrees to a specific number of hours per year, with the same result; the instructor is making money and he flies in to the students.

 

I wouldn't offer your other suggestion because you are legally responsible for you advice and you can't learn to fly an aircraft safety by correspondence.

 

Sadly it’s like Doctors, why should they leave the big cities where they make heaps of money…….the principle applies to lots of things.  IF instructors are happy with their lot, why change it?  Is there a shortage of instructors, maybe not but the school I attended bought a new plastic fantastic go fast ship, because a pilot hired the school plane and bent it……it got sent for 4 months repair and the school bought a new plane. I was told here is a new plane to learn in, I said too fast for an old Dinosaur like me……..but it’s what all the students want these days, Covid fouled my training plans anyway, so I had to move. The catch is…….expensive aircraft costs more for hire. School buys plane because a tax deduction is in there somewhere, CFI gets a rocket ship to fly on his own if he wants to go anywhere for his benefit. 

RAA training is being priced over the top because of fast and flash aircraft these days. 

Advice and correspondence?  my life is full of throwaway lines, jokes and all sorts of crazy things.  Let me say, when I survived an early EOL medical event, my attitude to many things changed for a FUN life. That will NEVER change, regardless 🙂 

[Ignition]

I wasn't going to bother putting in my thoughts on this topic, but as a young person, I feel like I can speak for myself and my friends who have stopped flying to offer some actual perspective rather than this echo chamber which couldn't be more wrong.

I'll quote the 3 responses that got my attention, and then respond below them.

 

On 19/09/2021 at 11:11 AM, Soleair said:

I do not see the same level of early interest in flying that seemed prevalent in my day. The younger guys certainly have the money to fly (unless runaway house prices have taken all their money?), but the clubs seem exclusively populated by old farts of my generation, who usually like to talk about their flying stories. Very few youngsters from what I've seen.

 

21 hours ago, onetrack said:

the younger ones no longer have the manual skills or trade training to do things, such as build a kit plane.

Add in the constant impact of the Internet and electronic devices, coupled with instant gratification seeking (aided by that smooth and persistent marketing and sales), and the younger people want everything NOW, they want it NEW, and they want it delivered, ready to operate, out of a glitzy box.

 

16 hours ago, walrus said:

One track:

I think this is close to the mark. I have two stepsons. Both doing important jobs for six figure ++ salaries. One likes getting his hands dirty, the other mirrors Onetracks mates son. He works twelve hour plus days talking to everyone from houston to london, has the latest sports-car and his view of manual labor is “why? I make enough money per hour to buy new rather than take the time to learn to fix things”. His idea of aviation is seat 1A business class.

 

Given the pace and remuneration of his job that is understandable. What little free time he has is spent on me me me me behaviour.

These responses are perfect examples and part of the reason why young people like myself have a waning or very little interest in flying now.

The younger guys really do not have the cash to fly and it is honestly so frustrating to be constantly on the receiving end of comments like that from people who have no idea because their experiences were vastly different at our age.

Sure some of us are earning what sounds like a lot of money, but the cost of living, student debt (did they have $20-100k+ uni debts when you guys went to uni?) and rising costs of aviation, it's actually not affordable, and for the few of us where it is, it's not justifiable for the cost-time expense - one of my friends literally decided to stop flying last week, his reasoning: "$200+ for one hour of flying, and half a day is gone along, plus the cash could've paid some bills. It's not worth it." - a lot of people I know feel that way too. For some of us it is the choice of, do we want to own a car or house, or do we want to fly/do other expensive hobbies that cost as much as home loan repayments because our grandparents generation changed the game so we couldn't play it.

 

Even if it were genuinely affordable for most of us, the interest would still not be there, I can explain why below.

Yes - Clubs are populated by old guys, and that is a huge part of the problem, but not for the reasons you think... with the absolute respect, please don't take offence to what I'm about to say, instead see it as an opportunity to understand younger people and maybe put yourselves in our shoes - because as someone who used to hang around different aero clubs every weekend, I don't find them enjoyable or welcoming places. Old guys get stuck in echo chambers, repeating the same unpleasant, inappropriate and incorrect things and agreeing with one another, reinforcing that unpleasantness.

The amount of times I've heard quite frankly homophobic slurs, racism, sexist, ageist, condescending, aggressive, stereotypical comments from old guys at aero clubs (some of which have been echoed in this thread - they are so degrading and exhausting), yeah I think it is pretty clear to me why I and so many others don't feel comfortable being around those environments - and no its not isolated, I genuinely can't think of a single place where I haven't felt uncomfortable to some extent, solely based on the attitudes and behaviours of the old guys at them. If the demographics at aero clubs are gonna change, the existing attitudes need to change and be more welcoming first.

Us younger ones no longer have the skills, and want everything now? Excuse me. And everyone here wonders why young people don't want to hang around people who think so poorly of us? You weren't born with those skills either, you had to learn them, and you had to be in environments that made you want to learn them. <- this part is important.

I never pursued a career in the airlines, I was passionate about it as a kid, it was all I ever dreamt of and wanted to do - the reason I didn't, OLD GUYS and their attitudes, and the environment that created.

Being told by old guys: "there's no money in flying", "the industry is declining", "get a job in the NT on a station and work your way up because you won't get an airline job", I don't know if people realise it but doom and gloom don't exactly make for great encouragement, and it made the idea of the industry look fake, glossy on the outside, but terrible on the inside, not as cool or exciting as I thought it would be.

Me Me Me behaviour. Wow, see, I would've thought that flying a plane for ones own enjoyment was still... 'me me me behaviour', who are you flying for, why are you flying? It's for yourself right?

I tried my best to enjoy aero clubs, and aviation websites, but the amount of doom and gloom, political division, the constant us vs them, old vs young, that unwelcoming environment... that's the issue... old guys are meant to be the inspiration, the mentors, but overwhelmingly, they're the opposite, I think I can count the ones I look up to & respect on one hand, and I've been involved in aviation for 14 years.

But apparently it's just that us young ones no longer have the skills. I started building an RV many years ago, I still am building it, but I was told continuously "you'll never finish it", "it's a waste of money", "we'll believe it's able to fly when we see it", "you're doing it wrong", "it won't fly". But apparently it's just us young ones...

Us young guys can only bring our excitement, we enter the industry thinking it's going to be great, only to be shut down by the very people who's position it is to show us around - what do you guys expect from us? That we are born with the skills to fly? That we will be happy to sit around a bunch of old guys who continuously kick us down? That our young enthusiasm is the key to keeping the industry alive? I hate to be the bearer if bad news, but that's not the key. It's on the old guys to show us an exciting industry that we want to be part of, to encourage us, to create an environment that is welcoming.

I used to love aviation...

[jackc]

Geez, this sounds like Ham Radio word for word!

 I had visitors here yesterday, one them the son of a good friend. He is in the same boat, got his RPC but needs some endorsements etc……is currently out of a job, but looking for an Aviation apprenticeship.

His resume reads very well.  So I offered him my 25 rego aircraft FREE hourly rate,  just need to check legality and see IF it’s OK and legal with my CFI.  I said he pays  the instructor, pay for his fuel and it’s his to use.  I will fund any required maintenance on the aircraft.  

I am trying to help him find him an apprenticeship somehow……..

[facthunter]

If it wasn't for the encouragement and trust ONE particular Instructor showed in ME I definitely would not have pressed on. The Aero Club wanted doctors etc who had a lot of money to spend signed up.  IF you really want to FLY Ignore the noise and get on with it  Praise is in short supply in aviation.  It often takes a lot of "something " to make it.  Some kids had rich Fathers. You can pick them..Some did it through the air force.. I was all into motors and thought aero ones were the pinnacle of the expertise.but I'd built models since 13 years of age that I designed  myself. So Who Knows. My family never said a word about it to me One way or the other, but I did take my father for a ride in a Tiger Moth. The only time he ever flew in a small plane. Nev

[KRviator]

Some very important points you raise @Ignition. Some very important points indeed.

I built and fly my RV so they ain't hard. Even old school 3's or 4's, if you can understand Lego & Mecanno, and have the $$ to finish it, you'll finish it. Note I didn't say "time" as $$ outweigh "time". Less time = more $$ for easier-to-implement parts...

I do want to help other's get into aviation, and on my local airport. We put up a new windsock at our back gate, as there wasn't one at our end of the airfield. We've installed a pair of ADS-B ground stations for FA and FR24, I'm going to install another weather camera facing our windsock & the runway threshold here, and this arvo I took Mini-Me's friend (10yo) for his first flight in a small plane. But....

I refuse to join the local Aero Club here as I really CBF dealing with the politics that go on behind the scenes, and unless you own a plane such as an RV, I don't think anyone who doesn't already own their own home can afford to fly for fun these days enough to be current. Even insurance on the RV was $3,000 a year - for only $100K coverage. At 50 hours a year, that's $60/hour Hell, I insured a fully decked out Landcruiser for less than half that, for $150K agreed value.

Add in $2.446/L Avgas (current price here) at 25L/hour and that's another $60/hour. Oil is $10/qt * 6 every 50 hours ($1.50/hour), AD/RAD/47 certification and you're looking at close to $150/hour - for a dead simple RV that we own. At 50h a year, that's $7,500 to fly an hour a week. $4-8000 more if you don't have your own hangar and a hell of a lot more if you have to hire one!

 

GA in this country is dying. Council's bunging on exorbitant landing fees (It's all "cost recovery" you know...Can't go giving all those rich RV Driver's a free landing when they fly in to spend money in our town), CAsA and their....shenanigans', ASIC, RAAus and the direction they're going now and a lack of things to do when you get to an airport after going for a jolly except buy more Avgas and go home. Coupled with the AUD/USD making it prohibitively expensive to bring in an aircraft from overseas, yet alone a new aircraft and the vast majority of the GA fleet is rapidly closing on being older than the pilot's parents. 

Properly maintained, we know that's not an issue, but tell that to Little Johnny and his Ma & Pa who rock up wanting to learn to fly, "This here is a Cessna 152, it has over 13,000 hours on it, and it first flew in 1978, it doesn't have fuel injection yet alone electronic ignition, the radios use old-school AM instead of FM and there's no EFIS, GPS or even electric trim . Oh, and it is still valued at $78,000 - which is about what a brand-spankers 2021 Toyota Prado VX costs... And this is what you're gonna learn to fly in Lil' Johnny!"

Great look for aviation, innit?

[rgmwa]

Good on you for building your own plane. I hope you keep on with it despite your negative experiences around aero clubs. Money is a definitely a problem for most people and particularly when you're young.  Even for most of us older guys it's a big commitment. That's the main reason I was just on 60 before I got my licence and started building my RV, also with no experience.  I could not have justified the cost and time commitment much before then. My experience at the aero club where I trained was also different. There were plenty of old guys there besides me but also lots of young students and keen instructors that made it a busy and enjoyable place to be. No doubt there were people like those you describe, but I never came across any. It sounds as though you've had a long run of bad experiences which is pretty unfortunate, but I hope you keep at it and get that plane in the air.  

 

[jackc]

7 minutes ago, KRviator said:

Some very important points you raise @Ignition. Some very important points indeed.

I built and fly my RV so they ain't hard. Even old school 3's or 4's, if you can understand Lego & Mecanno, and have the $$ to finish it, you'll finish it. Note I didn't say "time" as $$ outweigh "time". Less time = more $$ for easier-to-implement parts...

I do want to help other's get into aviation, and on my local airport. We put up a new windsock at our back gate, as there wasn't one at our end of the airfield. We've installed a pair of ADS-B ground stations for FA and FR24, I'm going to install another weather camera facing our windsock & the runway threshold here, and this arvo I took Mini-Me's friend (10yo) for his first flight in a small plane. But....

I refuse to join the local Aero Club here as I really CBF dealing with the politics that go on behind the scenes, and unless you own a plane such as an RV, I don't think anyone who doesn't already own their own home can afford to fly for fun these days enough to be current. Even insurance on the RV was $3,000 a year - for only $100K coverage. At 50 hours a year, that's $60/hour Hell, I insured a fully decked out Landcruiser for less than half that, for $150K agreed value.

Add in $2.446/L Avgas (current price here) at 25L/hour and that's another $60/hour. Oil is $10/qt * 6 every 50 hours ($1.50/hour), AD/RAD/47 certification and you're looking at close to $150/hour - for a dead simple RV that we own. At 50h a year, that's $7,500 to fly an hour a week. $4-8000 more if you don't have your own hangar and a hell of a lot more if you have to hire one!

 

GA in this country is dying. Council's bunging on exorbitant landing fees (It's all "cost recovery" you know...Can't go giving all those rich RV Driver's a free landing when they fly in to spend money in our town), CAsA and their....shenanigans', ASIC, RAAus and the direction they're going now and a lack of things to do when you get to an airport after going for a jolly except buy more Avgas and go home. Coupled with the AUD/USD making it prohibitively expensive to bring in an aircraft from overseas, yet alone a new aircraft and the vast majority of the GA fleet is rapidly closing on being older than the pilot's parents. 

Properly maintained, we know that's not an issue, but tell that to Little Johnny and his Ma & Pa who rock up wanting to learn to fly, "This here is a Cessna 152, it has over 13,000 hours on it, and it first flew in 1978, it doesn't have fuel injection yet alone electronic ignition, the radios use old-school AM instead of FM and there's no EFIS, GPS or even electric trim . Oh, and it is still valued at $78,000 - which is about what a brand-spankers 2021 Toyota Prado VX costs... And this is what you're gonna learn to fly in Lil' Johnny!"

Great look for aviation, innit?

This is why we need a ‘foundation’  Aviation sector along the lines of the U.S. FAR Part 103 system, low budget aircraft at an entry level for people wanting to have a go.  Lower cost training with a possibility of people ultimately being able to own their own aircraft.  Club politics?  That’s everywhere……Ham Radio is one of the worst examples I have seen.  

Shame there are no lower cost solutions made in Australia,  ‘new’ model Drifters, Thrusters or similar  etc with factory built option.

Older people are past it to operate an enterprise like that and younger people go in search of the money, so local aviation manufacture is a long dead Dodo 😞 

[walrus]

Ignition, you raise very valid points.  I’m past 70 but I wanted to fly from age six. I don’t frequent aero clubs for exactly the same reason you don’t. Mentally I’m still a 20 something in love with aviation. I offer my kids free rides anytime - mostly too busy, always on their phones. Grandkids? Their mothers won’t let them.

 

‘’What I personally think is missing from aviation these days is the sense of wonder and pure joy in becoming airborne! That spirit has been rung out of the activity and flushed down the sewer by over regulation - hence a suggestion that aviation is now a guilty pleasure. There are plenty of us who love flying but we can’t share that joy with you on youtube for fear of the regulator.

 

My observation of the young these days still stands: you have been conditioned by marketing and technology to require instant gratification. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in popular culture that extols patience and delayed gratification. Even cooking and eating ferchrissake! Uber Eats, Deliveroo and Menulog exist because people won’t even invest time in travelling to a fast food restaurant to pick up a ready to eat meal! What hope has aviation got to attract kids with those priorities? Aviation requires careful thought, practice and deliberate actions to fly let alone build, that requires faith and diligence which is hard to come by especially since CASA has crushed the joy out of flying.

 

‘’That said, look at youtube and the likes of Trent Palmer, Gravity Knights, etc. to understand that there are young players who are having a great time, not only in the USA but places like NZ. It’s just Australia that is so gloomy. There appears to me to be a growing RAA STOL aircraft movement - aircraft that fly low and slow and don’t need expensive and limiting airports., pretty much any paddock free of stock, wombat holes and power lines will do.

 

 

[jackc]

Australia has great potential to grow Aviation but is hamstrung by regulators in that we are swamped by too many rules and the relationship between aviators and regulators is not good, it’s an ‘us’ and ‘them’ sort of deal.  IF you want participation in Aviation, it must be accessible for a reasonable cost, too. As I have said before, some flying schools fees are over $300 per hour For RPC training. Part of that is the cost of the aircraft, many of which have fancy flash features in them, modern cars are a direct comparison.   We need to go back to lower cost, simple aircraft to offer training with. 

I spoke some time ago with an importer about low cost models he had and made suggestions about a new foundation Aviation idea along the lines of the old AUF, he promptly shot me down with a barrage of surface to air missiles.  This guy sells aircraft, and he shot me down…….what a fool, would I buy anything from him? NEVER.  Golden rule, you want to sell stuff to anyone today or tomorrow, then be nice to a potential customer.   

Aviation needs to clean up its act in many areas,  the ‘happiness index’ of the average Aviator is pretty low.  I sometimes feel like a Harley Davidson owner who bought the lowest budget 883 Sporster, and because I have no chrome, no tassels, no loud exhausts, I am an outcast. amongst other owners.   So I rock up to a fly-in in my rag and stick lawnmower powered ring stinger, would I be accepted by the plastic fantastic slick ship pilots?   40 years ago, no problem but in today’s World I probably would not rate.  In today’s World we have somewhat destroyed the social aspect of our hobbies/interests in general.

We are all under pressure from various angles in our lives and our hobbies/interests are our only salvation in a generally unhappy World.  We only have one life……IF you have one foot in your grave, the other on a banana skin……it’s too late, your party in this life has ended.

 Small private strip fly-ins are the way of the future……enjoy Aviation ‘under the radar’ so to speak, but we need lower cost training and aircraft to help boost aviation, it’s all possible but we seem to be ignoring in on many fronts. 

I look to forums for knowledge and I am getting it but I sometimes feel an unhappy atmosphere in general, today its not what it once was on forums either. We have infiltration by regulators who watch our every comment, nothing is sacred in today’s World, then we have the goody 2 shoes snitches who would dob  you in at the drop of a wheel chock.   I love baiting those people 🙂 

Well I guess the size of my ‘hate’ files at CASA and RAA is growing, must be getting close to the top of their hit list.  So gotta count that as an aviation achievement:-) 

Rant over!

[jackc]

This is a little inspiring :-:

 

https://youtu.be/zyMNWJKaKnY

 

[Thruster88]

Jack, it doesn't matter what other pilots think of your aircraft. The last time I whent to a big flyin was the SAAA event in 2019 at Narromine. Was met on arrival by the president, I apologised for not having a sport plane and not being a member yet. He said you are welcome, we are all aviators. The Thruster and Dave's Gere Sport got a lot of attention with many saying they had flown a Thruster in the past. I have been flying and owning RAAus and         VH-casa aircraft for more than 30 years. I don't see either regulator as an impediment to my flying. If anyone wants to fly a single seat 95.10 aircraft there is nothing stopping them.

[turboplanner]

I think Iggy and Thruster are spot on.

We have classifications to suit every budget and every type of recreational flying up to the level of serious cross country work where a bigger and faster class of aircraft work better.

There will always be the old farts who tell the same old stories over and over again, and quote the green grass over the fence, but never realise they are the misfits.

I used to have 35 Associations and Clubs to look after, and even though as a State we were very successful there were always about five in a state of high drama where they were sacking the committee or not listening to their committee or just generally pissing in all the corners. I was talking to one President one night who'd phoned me in the middle of a meeting to get an opinion on something. He was standing out on the verandah and said "Sorry, have to go inside, ring you back." A fist fight had broken out and he'd had to drop the ring leader. 

It's a case here of "Two men looking out through bars, one saw mud, the other stars."

RAA clearly suits tens of thousands of members who don't find it necessary to bad-mouth their sport.

I understand that RPT and certain sectors of GA can have issues, but its wrong to assume that those issues would apply to people who fly and train for recreation, and those hates and issues should be kept to GA forums where there are people with similar problems who may be able to help.

It's interesting that no one has mentioned what the policy is, or what the Objects are of RAA Ltd.

RAA Ltd is the Self Administering Organisation which can shape recreational flying. MOST importantly, RAA Ltd is the organisation with the responsibility of promoting recreational flying.

Yet not a comment.

 

[jackc]

THIS is what we need to boost  Aviation, regulations that allow it, or a close derivative. An importer representing the product who is prepared to promote the product AND keep inventory.  Many lazy importers sit on agencies and don’t keep stock, they are mere order takers and want  to profit well from minimum work and financial  commitment. Aviation does not need those sorts of people.

Are these a possible answer?  I believe YES.

 

https://bydanjohnson.com/sponsors/u-fly-it-aerolite-103/