Are We Losing Interest?

[facthunter]

There's NO 1 simple answer and most retired people wonder how they found time to fit a job in..Nev

[Old Koreelah]

I tend to agree with your observations, NT. Whether people have less time or not, perhaps its the way they allocate their time that matters.

 

I recall an era when idle tome let to boredom, a great opportunity for reflection, but today there are too many distractions. Now it’s almost impossibe to get people (me included) away from phones and tablets.

[facthunter]

When you become a wise old sage, people will seek your counsel. Nev

[NT5224]

14 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

I tend to agree with your observations, NT. Whether people have less time or not, perhaps its the way they allocate their time that matters.

 

I recall an era when idle tome let to boredom, a great opportunity for reflection, but today there are too many distractions. Now it’s almost impossibe to get people (me included) away from phones and tablets.

Koreelah 

 

Yes I take your point. I'm staring at a device right now...obviously.

 

However thats not what I meant. I think peoples lives and society is now busier than they used to be.

 

I  don't recall my dad routinely working  (professional work) after hours or at the weekend. Back then you did your hours and that was enough. He only had one job.

 

Its possible he did a bit of after hours work - but not like seems commonplace today.

 

In the last two months I've worked seven days sometimes until midnight.

 

I think societal expectations of life and work  (and the pace of life) has changed in the last 50 years. 

 

Flying -especially the training part- can be very time consuming.

 

I'm just raising this point because I think its relevant -even if not the full picture.

 

Alan

Edited October 4, 2021 by NT5224

[pmccarthy]

I agree Alan. In the 70s I lived in Broken Hill, we had every type of club and sport imaginable. Sailing, gliding, GA flying, rallying, motorbike racing and many more. We all worked to the mine whistles and had ample leisure time. When I was on the staff we rarely worked overtime, never weekends, and when I was a union man the hours were 8am to 3pm day shift, etc. Flying and training was about the same cost relatively as now. My flying fell off due to costs of a growing family and more work committments when I moved to Victoria. It became intermittent for many years and I only got back into it with AUF and RAA in the 90s, then back into GA after retirement.

 

My five children have all worked much harder than I did in my first ten years in the workforce, though probably not as consistently hard as I did later on. I don't think they would have the time to commit to flying frequently enough to stay safe. That was a big consideration for me, that I could only fly every six or eight weeks and was usually really tired when the weekend came along, I just didnt feel safe flying and used to get anxious the night before.

[facthunter]

I approach this matter from a bang for your buck perspective and I know many less interested pilots who have dealt with it that way. Flying can have an addictive factor so if you're hooked that's it.  It also comes to a point in my case where I can't hope to replicate the experiences of the past and you have less to prove also. Just flying by myself has never been enough for very long. It's 95% boredom and 5% FEAR. (Put your own %'s there). I've always realised I NEED to be doing something with people as well and I've always loved Instructing BECAUSE it makes me keep up to date in things which I would otherwise become slack at and there's been buckets of money thrown at training ME and perhaps some could be passed back. There possibly exist environments where I would get more active but a few negative experiences make it less likely I will bother.. Nev

[Old Koreelah]

2 hours ago, NT5224 said:

…However thats not what I meant. I think peoples lives and society is now busier than they used to be.

Yes Alan, I agree with that. We seem to have a diminishing number of people working longer hours just to support the rest of society (including old farts like me). Constant changes in the workforce means fewer are qualified for emerging roles, so perhaps that’s why those with jobs get worked harder.

 

My kid’s hubby works long and irregular hours keeping the show on the road and lots of extra time looking for qualified staff. My daughter works long, irregular shifts with little time to recover or enjoy the kids.

Not a chance that either of them could get involved in the sports and outside interest that my generation enjoyed. Maybe one reason that volunteer organisations like the VRA have a hard time recruiting.

2 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

…I don't think they would have the time to commit to flying frequently enough to stay safe. That was a big consideration for me, that I could only fly every six or eight weeks and was usually really tired when the weekend came along, I just didnt feel safe flying and used to get anxious the night before.

A good point PM, and the people pushing aerodromes far away from urban centres are contributing to this; too many pilots have to get up at sparrows f@rt, then drive hours to their aeroplane.

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, NT5224 said:

Koreelah 

 

Yes I take your point. I'm staring at a device right now...obviously.

However thats not what I meant. I think peoples lives and society is now busier than they used to be.

I  don't recall my dad routinely working  (professional work) after hours or at the weekend. Back then you did your hours and that was enough. He only had one job.

Its possible he did a bit of after hours work - but not like seems commonplace today.

In the last two months I've worked seven days sometimes until midnight.

I think societal expectations of life and work  (and the pace of life) has changed in the last 50 years. 

Flying -especially the training part- can be very time consuming.

I'm just raising this point because I think its relevant -even if not the full picture.

 

Without those devices we wouldn't be having this conversation, and mostly had the same old conversation over and over again with the same old people, so these days we are able to broaden our outlook and have daily conversations, if we want all over the world and in a high speed medium compared to finding the ink, filling the fountain pen or finding a ball point pen that was working, finding a piece of paper, trying to work out what to say, trying to fold it three different ways into an envelope, woking out the current cost of a stamp, then finding one, then posting the letter and forgetting what you had said when the reply came back.

 

Even before the digital age, in business we were working through lunch breaks and taking work home to handle an increased volume of work as companies streamlined their workforce to get more done with less people. Possibly that was because they didn't have a war to fight and were hell-bent on catching up after the last one. By the end of the 1970s it became popular for a lot of people in business to "drop out" due to the stress. The digital age let us process a lot more work, but business needs seem to have just taken up the slack, and it is much harder to find after hours or weekend time for any non-work pursuit. You don't see too many people plaiting whips these days.

 

I agree this is relevant to recreational aviation today.

 

I don't think the issue is affordability; it certainly can be for some who seem to insist on building or buying their own recreational airctraft, and a lot of these aircraft either never get out of the sheds, or rot away because the skills/time are not there to keep them in the air and interest falls away. You could probably count several hundred cases like that just by going through the history of this site.

 

Even when I was flying a Cherokee 140 for $21.00 an hour in the 1970s, that was a lot of money and I had plenty of breaks until I built up enough income. I did some detailed analysis a couple of years ago and found that far from aircraft hire being dearer on a cost of living basis, it was slightly cheaper. It's just that Flying training doesn't seem to have the people around who will buy a new aircraft, and build their model on operating a lot of hours to bring affordable training to the masses.

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by turboplanner

[Butch]

2 hours ago, facthunter said:

Just flying by myself has never been enough for very long. It's 95% boredom and 5% FEAR.

Have to agree Nev,

I have hardly flown since covid started. Going to hire an aircraft with no one at the club house and nobody wanting to go for a flight with you has made me lose interest in flying.

Being a low hours pilot I am now starting to lose my confidence even though I'm current with everything.

I am now turning my interests to things that are less expensive and less hassle to do.

I really love flying but I'm at the crossroad whether to continue in the future. Hopefully if covid gets sorted out the passion will return.

 

[jackc]

Last week I went out to a local gliding club airstrip looking for a temp hangar…..

I thought they would be flying that day…….all I saw was what I thought was a post WW2 airstrip, buildings looking forlorn and unkept, shredded windsocks …

The whole place looked abandoned 😞. I was in that club 35 years ago, it was dynamic with  lots of activity etc, but many of the people from those days have probably passed on and gliding does not have the attraction of iPhones etc…….

I believe there are 7 members left now……..and they have hired out some hangars to store building materials?  Not sure how that fits in with Aviation?

[facthunter]

It will work out.  If you get a good instructor (non show-off) just do some fun dual for a while in a Cub or something.  Get rid of the tension. You'll never get far with that gnawing at you. Discus all this before you spend any money and you have to be on the same wavelength. 

 One thing about flying when the $#!T hits the fan the performance is for real. You can't hide stuff. and don't try to.Take the pressure off. I've flown with 1,000s of pilots many WW2 and maybe some with demons in their head. When THEY trust you you will know it.. IF you are in the right frame of mind you will learn something from many people. . IF they are insecure they can give you a hard time.  Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

Flying suffers from the fact that cars and roads are so good these days. Around Alice Springs, in the 1950's there were frequent flights to nearby cattle stations and missions.

Connellan Airways used to be a busy place, but even in the 50's,  its main income used to be the mail subsidy, I bet that has long gone.

Would you prefer to drive 50km rather than fly and have no transport when you got to town? 

So runways, like the one at Hermannsburg, are now disused. Once I was eying it for a glider outlanding, until I saw that it had shrubs growing up in it. The gliding club, which once nearly went full-time, is a shadow of its former self.

So, just as the camels became obsolete, so have planes. I reckon the younger among us will live to see drones used as air ambulances.

But in the meantime I intend to continue enjoying flying . Sometimes it is even the best way to go somewhere.

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Bruce Tuncks

[Bruce Tuncks]

On the subject of those working having too much to do...Was I the only one to be struck by the story about UK truck drivers in such short supply that petrol stations were running out?

What about the millions of unemployed young adults over there? Why are they paid to sleep in all day when there is work to be done?

Maybe the bleeding hearts have joined forces with the powers of darkness and you now need a PHD to drive a truck and the training has been outsourced to the Russian Mafia?

[Ian]

I actually think that there will be a resurgence in flying due to the ability to work remotely far from the office. Modern knowledge workers don't need to live in major cities and these cities are perceived as unattractive by a significant number of these workers. The attractive places to live are often poorly served by RPT however many of them have airfields in varying states of repair and it takes too long by car to get to a meeting and back. The requirement to go onsite is often just a monthly or fortnightly requirement however there are still the issues below.

• Planes as a package needs to get better, the fact that a homebuilt plane can be better what the market provides is a bit of a damming indictment. You can't build a car that comes close to what the market provides.
• Secondly costs of training needs come down significantly if you actually want people to fly, why is a driving instructor with a car $45-$75/hour and the cost of flying so much higher.

However if this pans out, the majority of this new group of "aviators" will be simply commuters and may not have a passion for flying. But at the very least it could stop the atrophy which appears to be occurring at the moment with land developers buying airports.  

You may also be right about drones, doing most of the flying as generally they can do a better job for less, a military pilot hasn't defeated an AI in the same planes in a decade. However drones will need airfields, hangars and other infrastructure. Given the choice between $20000 of instruction and the ability to buy a self flying commuter what are most people going to choose? But that's sometime off right ;-)

[pmccarthy]

Flight simulators, I'm told, have never been more popular. My 40+ son plays on one a lot. But he has no interest in real flying and I suspect most don't. It is hard to understand. One daughter told me that she intends to take up flying after her kids leave home.

[facthunter]

She'll probably be about 80 by  then. Nev

Edited October 4, 2021 by facthunter

[Bruce Tuncks]

After her own kids leave home PMC's daughter could return home herself and fly her dad's plane for nothing.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I sure hope you are right Ian. I have myself retired to a quiet country town and I don't understand why people seem to prefer traffic jams and no parking to live in the city.

My country town has an air-ambulance airfield and so far the medical services have been way better than in Adelaide...  outpatients are seen right away instead of never, for example.

( the never is factually correct...  twice I have waited for hours at an Adelaide emergency department, only to be told that I have slipped backwards due to higher priority cases arriving after me)

[spenaroo]

1 hour ago, Ian said:

a military pilot hasn't defeated an AI in the same planes in a decade. However drones will need airfields, hangars and other infrastructure. Given the choice between $20000 of instruction and the ability to buy a self flying commuter what are most people going to choose? But that's sometime off right 😉

was actually listening to a podcast with the DARPA team leader for this project.
he was saying its not accurate yet, the AI is taking risks that no fighter pilot would. they learned to go for a frontal shot - something that is high risk, and low probability of success. so advised against in the fighter doctrine. so basically the simulations learn to cheat. - which is part of why they run them, to see how it responds and adjust tactics accordingly. chance to see things that humans don't normally think of, or dismiss.

next stage is building two F16's and two L39? to upload these programs to and dogfight. but the rules will be much stricter for safety and will eliminate the head on shots they previously were winning with

Edited October 4, 2021 by spenaroo

[Old Koreelah]

29 minutes ago, spenaroo said:

…the AI is taking risks that no fighter pilot would.

I believe that is a major issue with AI; the machine it will take enormous risks to win- even doing a Kamikase shot- knowing that if it gets killed, the game will be re-started.

 

I fear that among a whole generation of game-addicted youth, a significant few may think they can as well…

[jackc]

THEN the game addicted youth join the services and play the games for REAL…..

What carnage could result?  But it’s a War they said…….

[spenaroo]

and thats the issue they are working around, they already have systems that will  sacrifice itself for a kill - its called a missile.
they are working up self preservation programing, and the controls to be able to change it mid mission. The idea is its a wing-man system where one manned aircraft can control a couple of unmanned as a force multiplier and increase survivability. being able to switch them from defensive and offensive depending on the circumstances. and at what level they are willing to endanger the asset

Edited October 5, 2021 by spenaroo

[NT5224]

I live out bush in the NT. And my hangar is just a kilometre or so from my house, easily walkable or driveable. So why don't I fly more than I do,  particularly in and out of town? In theory flying would cut my travel time in half.

 

There are several reasons why flight isn't as practical a solution as I had once hoped. However much I love flying its hard to justify flying in the light of these factors..

 

1. Transport.

 

Anybody flying into a regional airport needs a vehicle of some kind when they arrive. So leaving a car at Darwin airport is impossible because of high parking costs. Leaving a vehicle at MKT is possible but its still 30 minutes drive into town from there.

 

Ideal would be a shared car for club members, but what if you fly into town and somebody's already taken the car...? 

 

2. Weather/ conditions

 

Driving to town I can generally get through at any time under any conditions.  Because of licence restrictions  I can't fly at night or under IFR. That means I would always need to leave at a fixed time in the afternoon and on occaision may be trapped in town or unable to fly home due to weather. This could be costly and inconvenient.

 

So for now, for practical reasons driving remains my most regular option. I do occasionally fly into town but only when time isn't an issue. If I could get IFR or night rated and had a 'proper' aeroplane equipped to fly such I might use it more...

 

Cheers

 

Alan 

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by NT5224

[spacesailor]

PMC

My GreatGrandSon has only a couple of years, then he can start training.

He has started high school, so l will have to keep that HummelBird for him !. LoL

spacesailor

[facthunter]

Flying our types is for fun. IF you must be somewhere at a certain time, Drive or go Airline. It's always been  the case. Aerodromes can be desolate places of flapping iron sheets and no one about. IF the weather closes in or the headwinds too strong you have to sit it out wherever you get stuck and your pride and joy is exposed to the elements, cattle and vandals. You are also severely limited in what you can carry and it has to be stowed carefully not like the back of a ute.  Nev

Edited October 5, 2021 by facthunter
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